When does the rapture occur?

[PlainWord]

According to Revelation the marriage supper happens in chapter 19 after the events of the great tribulation !!!

Kenneth man friend>>>> Are you coming around???? Didn't see you made this point already. Good for you!!!

To everyone else, Kenneth sees Radical Islam for what it is - Mystery Babylon. This is the first and biggest step to unlocking everything else. All the bad stuff in Revelation deals with ISLAM, what they do to our brothers and sisters then what God does to them.

 

[pwrnJC]

Hey, the point is....JESUS is coming again! I personally don't care if HE comes in a taxi, chariot, with a entourage or not. Keep in mind, the Apostles who wrote the New Testament, in their humanity, tried to describe something so Supernatural and beyond their comprehension that they used more simplified words that the Holy Spirit allowed, as a 'shadow' of things yet to come.

 

[PlainWord]

OR, is it more like this verse?

1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.

Can't you see we are already at a Stalemate, and anything more would be excercise in futility. May I suggest that you debate with your Dad? You seem to be desperate to prove your Dad wrong.

To be honest, VCO, I have given up on trying to convince you to change your mind. I continue the debate with you in the hopes that someone else on here will come around. The stakes are very high, not loss of salvation high, but life or death high. It has nothing to do with my dad as he doesn't blog here and out of respect for each other we don't debate this subject anymore.

It is pretty obvious that an incredible number of Christians get slaughtered during the Great Tribulation. There are two main schools of thought over the Tribulation. Some hold to the idea that it started in AD 688 when the Dome of the Rock set up the Muslim faith in Israel and that this began the "time of the Gentiles." Some see the Tribulation as being centuries long and it is all those Jews and Christians killed over those centuries who make up the Great Multitude. Others see the Tribulation as a future, short period of time like 3.5 years or 7 years max.

The popular view seems to be a short trib period. Personally, I don't know which is right but I lean towards the Short Trib position. Anyway, let's say the Tribulation kills most of the Christians and that this explains how the "Great Multitude" came to be in heaven. If it makes you happy, let's say half the Christian world was raptured and the other half didn't make the cut (of course I don't believe this but I'll play along).

1.1 Billion Christians Raptured Pre-Trib
1.1 Billion Christians LEFT BEHIND to be slaughtered

Do you have any concept of how incredible the slaughter would be?

If 7 year Trib - 157 million killed per year, 13 million per month
If 3.5 year Trib - 314 million killed per year, 26 million per month

The deadliest war the world has ever seen was WWII with around 60 million killed in 6 years. That's 10 million a year or 833K per month. Even under the 7 year Trib assumption the killing rate would be nearly 16 times greater than WW2!!!

The point is, how is this even possible? How can so many from all over the globe be killed in such huge numbers so quickly?? Is it with nukes? Iran is building them. Is it will chemical weapons? Or is there a single mass killing event responsible for a big portion of deaths?

I look at the martyrs of the 5th seal and their plea for revenge:

“How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

The phrase, "those who dwell on the earth" describes the Muslim earth where the BEAST from the EARTH comes from. Random terror attacks cannot give us the body count that seems to be described:

...a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb...

The striking thing to me is this group isn't crying out for revenge. Instead, what do they cry out???

[SUP]10 [/SUP]and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!

They are happy for salvation, almost like they were surprised or grateful to be in heaven. They were crying...

...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Tears in heaven?? The angel asks John a strange question, almost like he's challenging John:

“Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

John's answer is even more strange.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

To me it seems similar to us perhaps saying, "Common dude, you know what the deal is with those guys, why are you asking me?" It just seems to me that this group died in a massive single death event. They are separate, yet part of the group from Seal 5. They both died during the Tribulation but the Great Multitude just feels like to me that they died doing something they shouldn't have been doing. Sure, they could be literally hungry and thirsty but those are also terms used for those who lack spiritual knowledge. The Lamb has to lead them to "fountains of living water" and God has to "wipe the tears from their eyes."

IDK, it seems like they were ashamed about something.

 

[PlainWord]

Hey, the point is....JESUS is coming again! I personally don't care if HE comes in a taxi, chariot, with a entourage or not. Keep in mind, the Apostles who wrote the New Testament, in their humanity, tried to describe something so Supernatural and beyond their comprehension that they used more simplified words that the Holy Spirit allowed, as a 'shadow' of things yet to come.

That's an important fact but the bigger point is to make sure it's really Jesus and not someone like Satan pretending to be Jesus. Since none of us where around 2,000 years ago to see what he looks like all we know is He looks like a Lamb that was slain. The other big clue we have Paul gives us:

..concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, ... [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the ... man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

So we know the Man of Sin comes first before Christ and our gathering and we know Christ appears like a Lamb which was slain. Those are two very important clues. Keep them in your toolbox. You may need them sooner than you think.

 

[ivanc0]

It does not matter, He took 2000 years, in the new testament they though He will return in that generation, and He may take another 10000 years in returning, so just live in faith and forget this little rapture detail.

 

[popeye]

It does not matter, He took 2000 years, in the new testament they though He will return in that generation, and He may take another 10000 years in returning, so just live in faith and forget this little rapture detail.

In our human experience,the marriage is possibly the biggest event of a lifetime.In fact all your childhood,in a sense,is preparing for your future and your success or failure in the marriage arena.

The rapture is the Groom gathering the bride for marriage in heaven.
Possibly the biggest event since the resurrection/ascention of Jesus.
Little event?
"my people are destroyed for lack of knowlege"

 

[Elin]

In our human experience,the marriage is possibly the biggest event of a lifetime.In fact all your childhood,in a sense,is preparing for your future and your success or failure in the marriage arena.

The rapture is the Groom gathering the bride for marriage in heaven.
Possibly the biggest event since the resurrection/ascention of Jesus.
Little event?
"my people are destroyed for lack of knowlege"

The church is already the wife/bride of Christ (Eph 5:29-32) which is why she is his body (Eph 5:30)
in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32).

 

[popeye]

. Can I suggest something to you Popeye? With utmost love and respect, have you ever researched to see just when the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place?

It happens in Rev 19 after the Tribulation is over. How is the Bride dressed? How does she make herself ready. You can look it up if you want but here it is:

...for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Fine linen, clean and bright.

How are those killed during the Great Tribulation dressed? We are told not once, but twice:

“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Did you see the white robe in the above given to those killed DURING the Tribulation? Guess what else? Those from the 5th seal are told to wait until more of their "FELLOW SERVANTS AND BRETHREN" are killed too. These aren't some second class, newly converted Tribulation Saints who missed the Rapture. They are fellow servants and brethren!!!

That's a powerful expression John uses. To be a FELLOW SERVANT and BRETHREN is high praise - the highest - a Christian can get. I want to be known as a fellow servant and brethren. I speak with passion because so many believers (not necessarily you because I don't know your heart) look upon Saints who die in the Great Tribulation as "LEFT BEHIND - Not good enough" Christians. The opposite is true. These Christians who die during the Tribulation, who refused to convert to Islam and stay true to God, are heroes. That's why they get to reign with Christ 1,000 years.

The Whole THEME of the Book of Revelation is to give comfort to Christians that Christ is in control and HE WINS!! Hallelujah dear Brothers and Sisters. We know how this is going to end - WE WIN!! Satan and Islam Lose!!

[SUP]9 [/SUP]I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John was not ashamed to be in the tribulation (small t). Paul wasn't either. Paul was proud to suffer for Christ. Some I fear are ashamed to be here for it.

..for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Fine linen, clean and bright.

How are those killed during the Great Tribulation dressed? We are told not once, but twice:

“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So your point is? All the bride /wife are martyers only?
This methodology of yours would have the sandals worn by a
some/all exaulted into some postrib prism.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Did you see the white robe in the above given to those killed DURING the Tribulation? Guess what else? Those from the 5th seal are told to wait until more of their "FELLOW SERVANTS AND BRETHREN" are killed too. These aren't some second class, newly converted Tribulation Saints who missed the Rapture. They are fellow servants and brethren!

!!

Uh,for what purpose do you leave out that that group was confined to "under the altar"? you left out a key ingredint.

For "during the gt",as you say,they are now before the throne ....THE NUMBER FULFILLED.
This lends COMPLETELY to a pretrib rapture,,with the "5 foolish" being those left behind and martyered for NOT TAKING THE MARK...... bride martyers and time of the gentiles fulfilled,as well as Jacob/israel's trouble ushered in.

You miss the PURPOSE ingrediant by mile.

These aren't some second class, newly converted Tribulation Saints who missed the Rapture. They are fellow servants and brethren!!!

False. Those that worked in the field for 30 minutes got the same pay as those working all day.
You er on the FIRST/LAST LAW AS WELL AS THE LEAST/GREATEST LAW ....in one sentance.
Postrib doctrine error is poluting even the basics of simplicities.

Can I suggest something to you Popeye? With utmost love and respect, have you ever researched to see just when the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place?

You are outta your legue friend. I study this.You have zero investment in this.

Jeus; "i will not drink of the fruit of the vine again till I drink it a new with you in my fathers house"
"I go to prepare a place for you"
".....for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready"

See that,add it up. And please factor in the FACT that in the Jewish wedding,the bride drank of the cup,IN HER HOME WITH THE GROOM at betrothal,then again IN THE GROOMS HOUSE.....(that would be heaven for you postribs)

While you guys were on anti pretrib gotcha quest,us scripture blood hounds found the quarry.
The groom/bride dimension is the game changer and you guys are chasing your tails,and will never get any traction till you reinvent that wasted doctrine

 

[popeye]

That's an important fact but the bigger point is to make sure it's really Jesus and not someone like Satan pretending to be Jesus. Since none of us where around 2,000 years ago to see what he looks like all we know is He looks like a Lamb that was slain. The other big clue we have Paul gives us:

..concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, ... [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the ... man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

So we know the Man of Sin comes first before Christ and our gathering and we know Christ appears like a Lamb which was slain. Those are two very important clues. Keep them in your toolbox. You may need them sooner than you think.

UH,no he does not.

He is a warrior in his 2nd coming,and a groom in the rapture.
But the guy you postribs are looking for is indeed on a horse,and is,in fact, the false Christ.
I will keep looking for Jesus. My bible tells me this. (The only one with holes in both hands and a whole in his side)

 

[PlainWord]

So your point is? All the bride /wife are martyers only?
This methodology of yours would have the sandals worn by a
some/all exaulted into some postrib prism.

I didn't say it was for martyrs only. I was pointing out when the marriage happens. It does not happen before the Tribulation as those killed during the tribulation are included in the Bride.

For "during the gt",as you say,they are now before the throne ....THE NUMBER FULFILLED.
This lends COMPLETELY to a pretrib rapture,,with the "5 foolish" being those left behind and martyered for NOT TAKING THE MARK...... bride martyers and time of the gentiles fulfilled,as well as Jacob/israel's trouble ushered in.

Those of the 5th seal are killed by ISLAM, "those of the earth."

“How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Nothing about the 10 virgins suggest a pre-trib timing. Quit using an assumption to force an earlier additional return of Christ that is not clearly taught. If Christ has two future returns coming, both would be clearly taught.

False. Those that worked in the field for 30 minutes got the same pay as those working all day.
You er on the FIRST/LAST LAW AS WELL AS THE LEAST/GREATEST LAW ....in one sentance.
Postrib doctrine error is poluting even the basics of simplicities.

Yet another assumption which proves nothing. The 30 minute worker would apply to someone saved on their death bed, would it not? It has nothing to do with someone saved during the Tribulation although it would apply too. You can receive Christ at age 5 or at age 95 and die 1 minute later.

You are outta your legue friend. I study this.You have zero investment in this.

I have zero investment??? WOW!! I am not the one using a series of parables to invent a completely new and additional return of Christ that is not taught.

Jeus; "i will not drink of the fruit of the vine again till I drink it a new with you in my fathers house"
"I go to prepare a place for you"

Where did Jesus go first, the cross or heaven? How was our way to heaven prepared?? Did Christ have to return to heaven to build us rooms in heaven or did He need to go to the Cross so that we could have forgiveness of sins?

[SUP]2 [/SUP]In My Father’s house are many mansions[SUP];[/SUP] if it were not so, I would have told you.

Looks like the mansions in heaven were already built so Christ isn't going to heaven to prepare them. If those mansions were not already built HE would not have told us. You are getting scripture wrong at every turn my friend.

While you guys were on anti pretrib gotcha quest,us scripture blood hounds found the quarry.
The groom/bride dimension is the game changer and you guys are chasing your tails,and will never get any traction till you reinvent that wasted doctrine

You are a funny guy. Please cite the passage in the Olivet Discourse where Jesus talks about His pretrib rapture return. His disciples (if still alive) would be raptured so why does Christ omit this big event and instead tell them about His Second Coming. Your doctrine fails at every turn. You have no pretrib timing, you have no two returns and you have no taking to heaven taught. You invented them all.

 

[PlainWord]

UH,no he does not.

He is a warrior in his 2nd coming,and a groom in the rapture.
But the guy you postribs are looking for is indeed on a horse,and is,in fact, the false Christ.
I will keep looking for Jesus. My bible tells me this. (The only one with holes in both hands and a whole in his side)

Again, Paul says, "LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS; FOR THAT DAY (DAY LORD RETURNS, DAY WE ARE GATHERED) WILL NOT COME UNLESS" the Man of Sin is revealed first. The Pre-Trib Doctrine is precisely an "ANY MEANS" Paul is warning us about. You have swallowed THE LIE, hook, line and sinker.

As I already pointed out, the Wedding is in Chapter 19 which takes place after the Tribulation. The Wedding Supper is after that still. You are so twisted and mixed up my friend that there is no helping you see straight. The Pre-trib doctrine is Satan's Lie whereby He will deceive most of the Church when the Man of Sin comes.

 

[popeye]

I didn't say it was for martyrs only. I was pointing out when the marriage happens. It does not happen before the Tribulation as those killed during the tribulation are included in the Bride.



Those of the 5th seal are killed by ISLAM, "those of the earth."

“How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Nothing about the 10 virgins suggest a pre-trib timing. Quit using an assumption to force an earlier additional return of Christ that is not clearly taught. If Christ has two future returns coming, both would be clearly taught.



Yet another assumption which proves nothing. The 30 minute worker would apply to someone saved on their death bed, would it not? It has nothing to do with someone saved during the Tribulation although it would apply too. You can receive Christ at age 5 or at age 95 and die 1 minute later.



I have zero investment??? WOW!! I am not the one using a series of parables to invent a completely new and additional return of Christ that is not taught.



Where did Jesus go first, the cross or heaven? How was our way to heaven prepared?? Did Christ have to return to heaven to build us rooms in heaven or did He need to go to the Cross so that we could have forgiveness of sins?

[SUP]2 [/SUP]In My Father’s house are many mansions[SUP];[/SUP] if it were not so, I would have told you.

Looks like the mansions in heaven were already built so Christ isn't going to heaven to prepare them. If those mansions were not already built HE would not have told us. You are getting scripture wrong at every turn my friend.



You are a funny guy. Please cite the passage in the Olivet Discourse where Jesus talks about His pretrib rapture return. His disciples (if still alive) would be raptured so why does Christ omit this big event and instead tell them about His Second Coming. Your doctrine fails at every turn. You have no pretrib timing, you have no two returns and you have no taking to heaven taught. You invented them all.

Nothing about the 10 virgins suggest a pre-trib timing.

Show me stinging scorpions,hailstones of fire,etc in the parable.
"THEY SLUMBERED AND SLEPT" really? I thought they had to be chased all over the countryside and tortured,lest they be counted as weak wimps???
Stop acting like you are on to something. You have zero.

and instead tell them about His Second Coming.

Always have. One coming after the gt. The gathering of the bride is b4 the gt.

no two returns and you have no taking to heaven taught. You invented them all.

You are so easy to refute.

Jesus; "i will not drink of the fruit of the vine again till I drink it a new with you in my fathers house"
"I go to prepare a place for you"
".....for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready"
"pray that you be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the earth"
"Because you have kept the word of patience I will keep you from the hour of trial"
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I didn't say it was for martyrs only. I was pointing out when the marriage happens. It does not happen before the Tribulation as those killed during the tribulation are included in the Bride.

I suppose you do not realize you have no point? We agree they are in the marriage supper. Only you are wrong in the timing.
You do to the marriage supper,the same thing you do to the "1st" resurrection. (misplace the timing,and think in your mind it is correct)

[SUP]2 [/SUP]In My Father’s house are many mansions[SUP];[/SUP] if it were not so, I would have told you.

Looks like the mansions in heaven were already built so Christ isn't going to heaven to prepare them. If those mansions were not already built HE would not have told us. You are getting scripture wrong at every turn my friend.

OOOPS,CONTEXT????
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Like i said,because you do not know the groom went BACK TO DAD'S EXISTING house and ADDED ON to the existing structure,you automatically do your sky grab for meaning.

Yes the mansions were already there when he said that.

Where did Jesus go first, the cross or heaven? How was our way to heaven prepared?? Did Christ have to return to heaven to build us rooms in heaven or did He need to go to the Cross so that we could have forgiveness of sins?

Well there you go again,for some reason you FACTOR OUT THE BRIDE/GROOM DIMENSION.

I have zero investment??? WOW!! I am not the one using a series of parables to invent a completely new and additional return of Christ that is not taught.

Concerning the bride/groom dimension. You postribs have basically painted yourselves into a corner big time

 

[PlainWord]

Pre-Trib teaches a resurrection of the righteous at the "Pre-Trib Rapture" then they teach a second resurrection of the righteous at the Second Coming (Part A and Part B, if you will) and a resurrection of the wicked at the Second Coming. But, what does the Bible teach? Can we find two resurrections of the righteous and one of the wicked?

John 5: [SUP]28 [/SUP]Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice [SUP]29 [/SUP]and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

I see one each in the above. There does not appear to be a separation of time between the two.

What about here?

Dan 12: ...Every one who is found written in the book. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Again, I see just one resurrection for the righteous and one for the wicked and again, no separation, no Part A and Part B. What did Paul teach?

1 Cor 15: [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Paul doesn't discuss the damned but he does mention just two resurrections with Christ being the first. That resurrection as we know was on April 3, 33 AD. So, the next are "at His Coming." According to the Pre-Trib this happens before the Trib then again after the Trib. But Paul doesn't teach this. If it happens only before the Trib then what about all those killed during the Trib? Do they not arise again?

When does Lazarus, Christ's friend, arise?

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” [SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Last day? But is the Pre-Trib Rapture on the "Last Day?" How can it be when the Tribulation would not have started yet? If the Resurrection happens before the Tribulation and it is the only one then the souls under the alter at the 5th Seal and the Great Multitude in Rev 7 have no hope.

The Last day is the LAST DAY. It is the Day Christ returns for the one and only time, AFTER the Tribulation of those days. EVERYONE is resurrected at once, those who died before and those who died after the Tribulation.

 

[popeye]

Again, Paul says, "LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS; FOR THAT DAY (DAY LORD RETURNS, DAY WE ARE GATHERED) WILL NOT COME UNLESS" the Man of Sin is revealed first. The Pre-Trib Doctrine is precisely an "ANY MEANS" Paul is warning us about. You have swallowed THE LIE, hook, line and sinker.

As I already pointed out, the Wedding is in Chapter 19 which takes place after the Tribulation. The Wedding Supper is after that still. You are so twisted and mixed up my friend that there is no helping you see straight. The Pre-trib doctrine is Satan's Lie whereby He will deceive most of the Church when the Man of Sin comes.

So the man of sin is revealed, and Jesus comes after this, FOR HIS BRIDE ??? ...and you jump up and down and celebrate,not even realizing jesus could come 5 minuets,or 5 days later and it would be fine with 100% of the pretrib doctrine???? Try again

As I already pointed out, the Wedding is in Chapter 19 which takes place after the Tribulation. The Wedding Supper is after that still. You are so twisted and mixed up my friend that there is no helping you see straight.

You ever discuss this without calling believers liars and satan followers???

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

As I already pointed out, the Wedding is in Chapter 19 which takes place after the Tribulation.

CONTEXT????
Jesus; "i will not drink of the fruit of the vine again till I drink it a new with you in my fathers house"
"I go to prepare a place for you"
".....for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife has made herself ready"
WIFE ? she has become the wife IN HEAVEN

 

[popeye]

Pre-Trib teaches a resurrection of the righteous at the "Pre-Trib Rapture" then they teach a second resurrection of the righteous at the Second Coming (Part A and Part B, if you will) and a resurrection of the wicked at the Second Coming. But, what does the Bible teach? Can we find two resurrections of the righteous and one of the wicked?

I just look at the word and see multiple resurrections,that obviously destroy an attempt to make rev 20 the 1st and only resurrection when Jesus,the patriarchs,and the pretrib dead in christ ,as well as the 2 witnesses PRECEED your MADE UP event at rev 20.
Not only that,if we should out of some desperation MAKE rev 20 the "1st res" then ONLY MARTYRS are resurrected.
This is bizarre nonsense.

 

[popeye]

I see one each in the above. There does not appear to be a separation of time between the two.

What about here?

Dan 12: ...Every one who is found written in the book. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Again, I see just one resurrection for the righteous and one for the wicked and again, no separation, no Part A and Part B. What did Paul teach?

2 witnesses????
Jesus???
Those resurrected patriarchs after the cross????

You will ,at some point, HAVE to rethink,or be permanently bogged down in that postrb mess.

 

[popeye]

The church is already the wife/bride of Christ (Eph 5:29-32) which is why she is his body (Eph 5:30)
in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32).

We have not yet recieved glorified bodies.
The bride thing is more than 1 dimension.
We are also seated with Christ Jesus in heavenly places. (figuratively).

 

[PlainWord]

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Like i said,because you do not know the groom went BACK TO DAD'S EXISTING house and ADDED ON to the existing structure,you automatically do your sky grab for meaning.

HAHAHAHAHAHA, Sorry, you crack me up. So Christ went back to heaven to build additions? There wasn't enough rooms so He had to build more??? Granted, he was a carpenter but dude, that is so funny!!! Sorry, you are killing me. Again, how did Christ prepare our way to heaven??? By building more rooms or dying on the cross?

Well there you go again,for some reason you FACTOR OUT THE BRIDE/GROOM DIMENSION.

Because nothing about the Jewish Wedding Ceremony proves pre or post Trib. The timing for the wedding and wedding supper given is located in Rev 19 after the Trib. I pointed that out to you but since it doesn't fit your narrative, you ignore that fact.

Concerning the bride/groom dimension. You postribs have basically painted yourselves into a corner big time

Sorry, I don't see how. Seems to me it paints you in the corner. You leave out all those killed during the Tribulation when clearly they are not left out as being part of the Bride. Christ reigns with the beheaded martyrs. OOPS to you.

"pray that you be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the earth"

This escape? “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. How does one escape the region of the "Earth" which by the way is the Muslim world (in case you haven't figured that out yet)? How about LEAVE. They can load up their cars, camels or whatever and get out of those Muslim nations where the Wrath will be poured out.

"Because you have kept the word of patience I will keep you from the hour of trial"

Who was this written to? How about the Church of Philadelphia in 96AD. The Christian world in Asia Minor was under severe persecution and tribulation in John's day. I guess this church escaped it. The purpose of John's letters to the 7 churches was to warn them, coach some of them, and to encourage them so that they could endure the Tribulation they were experiencing. If you want to read something bigger into that phrase and have it apply to you 2,000 years later, go ahead but nothing tells you to make that leap.

 

[PlainWord]

So the man of sin is revealed, and Jesus comes after this, FOR HIS BRIDE ???

YES< YES< YES< Finally you are getting it!!!!

You ever discuss this without calling believers liars and satan followers???

Not calling you a liar. I think you are simply deceived and ignoring Paul's very clear warning and timing. Let's face it, Paul is giving this stern warning to someone. If your idea about there being "LEFT BEHIND" saints is wrong (which it is) then this warning is staring those who believe Christ comes first right smack in the face!!!

Yes, I do think the Pre-Trib doctrine is the work of Satan. It fits his MO completely. Christ tells us we WILL face Tribulation. It's actually a promise of Christ that He gives His followers that He never, ever reverses for those of us on earth during the worst Tribulation. Nowhere does Christ say, "You will suffer Tribulation for me, oh, except for you guys at the end, I'm flying you off the planet instead." Sorry, if my words are offensive to you and others but I don't know how else to get through to you. Christ says "you will have tribulation", Satan says, "no you won't, I'm gonna fly you away." Who benefits from reversing the order of appearances, Christ or Satan?

CONTEXT????
Jesus; "i will not drink of the fruit of the vine again till I drink it a new with you in my fathers house"

When does the new Jerusalem come down out of heaven, before or after the Tribulation?

 

[valiant]

Revelation except for the First Three Chapters, IS STILL FUTURE PROPHECY no matter what you want to believe. Like I said, we are at a Stalemate.

we certainly are, for chapters 4 onwards depict occurrences from the time of Jesus onwards. They contain the history of the world from the time of Christ to the present day and then what will happen in the future leading up to the coming of Christ and the bringing in of the everlasting kingdom. Chapter 6 is such a summary, commencing with the false prophets and messiahs that arose (the white horse), the wars and rumours of wars (the red horse), famine (the black horse), war, famine, earthquakes and plague (the pale horse) fulfilling what Jesus said in His apocalyptic discourse (Matt 24). This is followed by the people of God having come out of persecution (the fifth seal), and the final climax of the age in the sixth seal. And so I could go on, with the beasts representing evil empire from 1st century AD onwards.

Yes it does tell us a great DEAL about "The Great Tribulation",

which great tribulation? The one on the Jews from 70 AD onwards? (Matt 24)
the one on professing Christians in 1st century AD? (Rev 2.20-22)
the one through the ages out of which come God's people (Rev 7.14)

even though many of the events that happen during that time period were not given a name. It is the Combined TOTAL of the EVENTS of that final SEVEN YEARS before the KING OF Kings sets foot on Earth again, SPLITTING the Mount of Olives.

T

no seven year event is mentioned in Scripture.

here has always been Tribulations, but there is ONE surrounding the THIRD TEMPLE that is going to FAR, FAR, WORSE than any before it.

there will be no third temple. Certainly not one acceptable to God. Jesus and the saints are God's temple now.

What we mean by it a combination of these Simultaneous Events:

The Revival of the FOURTH EMPIRE (the Roman Empire), which is not yet fully fulfilled Prophecy, but when the European Union has picked a single DICTATOR to Rule over them, it will be.

with its 27 kings? LOL Europe is not the Roman Empire, and never will be. The Roman empire the first beast) continued on in the Muslim empire (the second beast). That is where you should look for your beast.

The Seventieth Week of DANIEL, which is the Week of Years that Antichrist makes a Peace Treaty with ISRAEL and her ENEMIES.

the first half of the seventieth seven in Daniel ended when the offerings and sacrifices ceased in 70 AD. The prince who is coming is the coming prince of the previous verses or Titus. The One Who renews covenant is God Himself through the work of Jesus and the witness of the Apostles..

The Antichrist himself breaks the Peace Treaty and begins MASS BEHEADINGS of all who refuse to accept his MARK, (which is probably an implanted RFID micro chip or something similar), that SIGNIFIES that you have sworn you Allegiance to him, and now bow to him as if he is GOD.

The mark of the beast is initially emperor worship and offering sacrifices to Caesar. It is the mark of worshiping false gods.

The POURING OUT OF GOD'S WRATH, like NEVER BEFORE SINCE THE FLOOD of NOAH, as described in Revelation.

but only in certain places. indeed it is happening as we write.

You should be able to find all of the verses that Describe those events if you really want to study them

.

I studied them years ago being misled by Scofield. I wrote a book on the second coming. It was that that helped me to open my eyes as I saw all the special pleading and twisting of the Greek that was required


Matthew 24:21-25 (HCSB)

[SUP]21 [/SUP] For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn’t taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again! {And you want to think Adolf Hitler killing six million Jews doesn't blow your whole theory that it was talking about 70 AD? EVEN 70 AD and the Holocaust combined together, will NOT come CLOSE to what the REAL great tribulation is. }

a great tribulation that initially can be escaped by fleeing into the mountains. in other words on the Jews. Luke describes it.
'but when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies -- for these are the days of vengeance --- great distress will be on the earth and wrath ON THIS PEOPLE (the Jews) they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

All of this is the great tribulation on the Jews mentioned by Matt and Mark. It commenced in 70 AD and continues on until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. see the description in Deut 28. there will never be anything like it again.

[SUP]22 [/SUP] Unless those days were limited, no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the elect.

God puts a limit on it in order to save those whom he has elected among the Jews.