WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

[DeighAnn]

I've never suggested there won't be "death" in the MK age (if that is what you are intending by posting that passage [??]); but that death will be much more rare (reserved only for the rebellious; and not pertaining to the "still-living [mortals] saints" who ENTER the MK age, but will be applicable instead to those BORN TO THEM [and so on; IN/DURING the MK age], who will not be "BORN automatically righteous" [thus these will be the only ones susceptible to "death" IN/DURING the MK age]).

Aside from that, I have no idea how what you posted relates to the points *I* was actually making (esp. about the trib years that PRECEDE the commencement of the MK age [and that "our Rapture" PRECEDES even the trib years])

I don't believe ANYTHING PRECEDES THE LORDS DAY except the Tribulation of Satan.

There will be no death for the 1000 yrs because all are in spiritual bodies (immortal, those who over came and mortal, those who have not yet been judged) and not till after Satan is loosed at the end does judgement come. The dead are the "spiritually dead", but all alive till Judgement.

There will be no "birth or death" ever again (except at judgement), once we are changed. That was for this age only.
Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Matthew 22:33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.


Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Let Judgement begin)

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God and the books were opened and another book was opened, which is the book of life and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[iamsoandso]

And these,,, https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-15.htm we cannot precede these when the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire and the Devil is bound in the pit?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I don't believe ANYTHING PRECEDES THE LORDS DAY except […]

Nothing DOES "precede" the DOTL.

The problem is that you are mis-defining "the DOTL" to align with how the "amil-teaching" [incorrectly] defines it, instead of how the Bible itself defines it. (They are using a "MADE UP" definition, not how the BIBLE ITSELF defines it.)

It is a TIME PERIOD (of MUCH DURATION) that involves: "a period of JUDGMENTs" followed by "a period of BLESSINGs" [both! ALL THAT, together!]

"The DOTL" INCLUDES (ALL 3 of the following), and is the EQUIVALENT to the phrase "IN THAT DAY" when these two related phrases are found in the same contexts (as they DO ALSO here in 2Th1&2):

1)--the "DARK/DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT" portion (i.e. the 7-yr trib unfolding upon the earth [with its "man of sin" and ALL he is slated to DO over the course of those 7 yrs]); and

2)--"the SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion (i.e. Christ's Second Coming to the earth); and

3)--the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" portion (i.e. the entire 1000-yr reign of Christ on/over the earth)

... ALL of that (ALL 3!) is what "the DOTL" entails in its entirety (it is not merely "a singular 24-hr day," NOR is it a time period that COMMENCES upon His "RETURN" to the earth [at His 2nd Coming to the earth, point in time, Rev19]; but it commences back [well-before that point!] at the "[INITIAL] birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 (parallel "SEAL #1"!; parallel the "whose COMING/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/parousia" of the man of sin "IN HIS TIME"!)]" which is FOLLOWED by MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse, aka [commencing] at the START of the 7-yr trib... which point in time is parallel to a number of other passages I've listed in past posts [other threads])

 

[DeighAnn]

And these,,, https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-15.htm we cannot precede these when the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire and the Devil is bound in the pit?

No. We can not. Before Jesus died, he said you will see me again, and they did. (not the world, a chosen few) If you go through all of the Word, you will not find one word from the mouth of Jesus that he is coming to "gather the church" before Satan is revealed. Not even a hint. He so much as TELLS us when He returns to the world, it will be for the day of vengeance. He will return a second time, and every knee shall bow. We are told he will return as He left. We are told at the last trump. It is all very detailed.

Paul comes out and back to back 3 times says NOT UNTIL AFTER Satan.

For a pre trib rap to be "Gods Truth", it CAN'T void out any of the Words of God. BUT it does. It voids many of the words of God. There is nothing past that point that even matters. There is nothing that can be said to make it real if it doesn't perfectly fit. NOTHING. Gods Word is perfect.

The timing is set by the phrases like "kept from, keep thee from the hour of temptation etc." These don't say "how" or "when" anywhere. it is set pre trib because that is the only way some can see being kept safe.
The words spoken over and over to overcome to the churches are rendered void. The words to endure to the end. To stand. There is no purpose for gospel armor.
Not to mention the fact that RIGHT there in one of the 7 churches we are told, THEY WILL BE HERE. So then the church has to be parted out. But when you read about the churches and what they have to do just to make it, you see they are not ready, they are not even close to without spot or wrinkle.

So that gets changed to this is who they are and this is who these are and these stay and these go but it all doesn't matter because some of Gods Word has been rendered void.

If it isn't perfect, it isn't of God. Plain and simple. Oh, and if you take all the verses and put them with the Lords Day they all fit. Just have to have faith that God is in control, the blood of Jesus saves, and He will return a second time.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand ears were finished. This is the first resurrection.


With this being THE FIRST RESURRECTION, how can a resurrection of any sort come before this, this obviously AFTER Satan?

First in quality, not quantity

There was already a resurrection when Jesus resurrected and took some people with Him in Matthew 27.

The two witnesses are caught up too, all this before the 'first resurrection'

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

First in quality, not quantity
[…]
The two witnesses are caught up too, all this before the 'first resurrection'

Agree somewhat.

Of the Two Witnesses, it says they "ascended" up into Heaven, but yes, first they were "RESURRECTED," which is the point being covered there (in the argument); and this at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" well before the END of the trib (so there's still a good amount of time yet, for the "7th Trumpet/3rd Woe" and the "7 Vials" before that point--when those holding to post-trib view are saying is the first-point-in-time for any "resurrection" [note 1Cor15:23 "but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" means there doesn't remain only ONE POINT IN TIME for it, but a SEQUENCE/ORDER!]).

 

[DeighAnn]

1)--the "DARK/DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT" portion (i.e. the 7-yr trib unfolding upon the earth [with its "man of sin" and ALL he is slated to DO over the course of those 7 yrs]); and

The time was shortened. It is the hour of temptation.

.

"SEAL #1"!; parallel the "whose COMING/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/parousia" of the man of sin "IN HIS TIME"!)]" which is FOLLOWED by MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse, aka [commencing] at the START of the 7-yr trib... which point in time is parallel to a number of other passages I've listed in past posts [other threads])

Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

He has a bow, no arrow. A crown was given to him, he wasn't wearing one. The bow is an imitation made of fabric. Satan is the rider on this white horse. It is the first seal because it is the most important information. Not to mention the Lamb is opening the seals. If He is on His way to earth, then He isn't there to open the other seals.

 

[DeighAnn]

First in quality, not quantity

There was already a resurrection when Jesus resurrected and took some people with Him in Matthew 27.

The two witnesses are caught up too, all this before the 'first resurrection'

You would need to discuss that point of view with God. That is what HE WROTE, not me.

 

[DeighAnn]

The two witnesses are caught up too, all this before the 'first resurrection'

The two witnesses rise as Christ descends and that is when we are changed. All happening at the same time. The beginning of the Lords Day when His brightness will destroy Satan.

 

[iamsoandso]

No. We can not. Before Jesus died, he said you will see me again, and they did. (not the world, a chosen few) If you go through all of the Word, you will not find one word from the mouth of Jesus that he is coming to "gather the church" before Satan is revealed. Not even a hint. He so much as TELLS us when He returns to the world, it will be for the day of vengeance. He will return a second time, and every knee shall bow. We are told he will return as He left. We are told at the last trump. It is all very detailed.

Paul comes out and back to back 3 times says NOT UNTIL AFTER Satan.

For a pre trib rap to be "Gods Truth", it CAN'T void out any of the Words of God. BUT it does. It voids many of the words of God. There is nothing past that point that even matters. There is nothing that can be said to make it real if it doesn't perfectly fit. NOTHING. Gods Word is perfect.

The timing is set by the phrases like "kept from, keep thee from the hour of temptation etc." These don't say "how" or "when" anywhere. it is set pre trib because that is the only way some can see being kept safe.
The words spoken over and over to overcome to the churches are rendered void. The words to endure to the end. To stand. There is no purpose for gospel armor.
Not to mention the fact that RIGHT there in one of the 7 churches we are told, THEY WILL BE HERE. So then the church has to be parted out. But when you read about the churches and what they have to do just to make it, you see they are not ready, they are not even close to without spot or wrinkle.

So that gets changed to this is who they are and this is who these are and these stay and these go but it all doesn't matter because some of Gods Word has been rendered void.

If it isn't perfect, it isn't of God. Plain and simple. Oh, and if you take all the verses and put them with the Lords Day they all fit. Just have to have faith that God is in control, the blood of Jesus saves, and He will return a second time.

lol, I'm not pre trib,,,,

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The time was shortened. It is the hour of temptation.
Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

He has a bow, no arrow. A crown was given to him, he wasn't wearing one. The bow is an imitation made of fabric. Satan is the rider on this white horse. It is the first seal because it is the most important information. Not to mention the Lamb is opening the seals. If He is on His way to earth, then He isn't there to open the other seals.

When Jesus is IN HEAVEN opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of "the DOTL TIME PERIOD" ["a-period-of-JUDGMENTS-followed-by-a-period-of-BLESSINGS"], this is the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL [time period]" not the ARRIVAL of JESUS HIMSELF.


SEAL #1 = the "whose COMING/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/parousia" [2Th2:9a] of the MAN OF SIN = the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3, Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" ('A CERTAIN ONE' bringing DECEPTION)] = "the prince THAT SHALL COME"/"for ONE WEEK [7-yrs; Dan9:27a(26)--Dan9:25-27 being written in SEQUENTIAL ORDER!]"



"The Day of the Lord [TIME PERIOD]" ARRIVES at the same moment that "the man of sin" ARRIVES (i.e. the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that "comes UPON" them, suddenly, and is followed BY MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse; so at the START of the trib years: THAT is the COMMENCEMENT of the DOTL time period, not the LATER arrival of Jesus Himself in Rev19!).

 

[DeighAnn]

When Jesus is IN HEAVEN opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of "the DOTL TIME PERIOD" ["a-period-of-JUDGMENTS-followed-by-a-period-of-BLESSINGS"], this is the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL [time period]" not the ARRIVAL of JESUS HIMSELF.


SEAL #1 = the "whose COMING/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/parousia" [2Th2:9a] of the MAN OF SIN = the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3, Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" ('A CERTAIN ONE' bringing DECEPTION)] = "the prince THAT SHALL COME"/"for ONE WEEK [7-yrs; Dan9:27a(26)--Dan9:25-27 being written in SEQUENTIAL ORDER!]"



"The Day of the Lord [TIME PERIOD]" ARRIVES at the same moment that "the man of sin" ARRIVES (i.e. the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that "comes UPON" them, suddenly, and is followed BY MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse; so at the START of the trib years: THAT is the COMMENCEMENT of the DOTL time period, not the LATER arrival of Jesus Himself in Rev19!).

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Correct.

And Three "Days" are accounted for here:

1 & 2)--"--[Hosea 5:15-6:3 context] - "I will go and return to my place, till they [Israel] acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their [Israel's] affliction, they shall seek Me early/earnestly"... "After two days will He revive us [Israel],..." ; and

3)--"...in the third day He will raise us [Israel] up, and we shall live in His sight. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord..." [this "IN THE THIRD DAY" (IOW, 'the third day' since He ascended, per the v.15 context) being parallel with the 7th Millennium [7th Day / "REST"]; i.e. the "sabbatismos" of Hebrews 4:9]


Every "day" in time-related prophecies concerning Israel start "the evening before, at DARK [/SUNDOWN]" and this is also what I've been saying in past posts of this thread.

And, I am inclined to agree with what I'd read in some study years back, that the phrase "in the twinkling of an eye" is an idiom that refers to "the precise moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is eight-degrees below the horizon, AT SUNDOWN" (i.e. at "DARK / DARKNESS" when the "IN THE NIGHT" TIME PERIOD [DOTL ARRIVAL] COMMENCES, just following "our DEPARTURE [/RAPTURE]"--when ALL of the "LIGHTBULBS" [i.e. 'the Church which is His body'] will have JUST BEEN REMOVED/RELOCATED FROM OFF THE EARTH!)

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

I've already mentioned that the entire MK age (of 1000 yrs) is INCLUDED in what all "the DOTL [time period]" entails, all told. So of course I have no problem with this ^ . (the DOTL time period STARTS at "DARK"/"IN THE NIGHT" tho)

 

[DeighAnn]

Seems we will have to agree to disagree. That pre thing changes the timing of everything so it is very hard to follow. Thank you for making your sentences simpler. It really is helping. And what is a most beautiful part of all this? All will be revealed, the perfect truth played out in Gods Word. It will be interesting, to say the least.

Still, I have no clue what happens to you once you are "gone". Could you furnish me with the Scripture you use to lay out what happens once you change or just a previous post number would be great.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

The two witnesses rise as Christ descends and that is when we are changed. All happening at the same time. The beginning of the Lords Day when His brightness will destroy Satan.

If that is the case and the wicked are destroyed when the Lord returns, who is left in the flesh to populate the millennium? Who can rebel at the end of the millennium? Post-trib problems

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Agree somewhat.

Of the Two Witnesses, it says they "ascended" up into Heaven, but yes, first they were "RESURRECTED," which is the point being covered there (in the argument); and this at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" well before the END of the trib (so there's still a good amount of time yet, for the "7th Trumpet/3rd Woe" and the "7 Vials" before that point--when those holding to post-trib view are saying is the first-point-in-time for any "resurrection" [note 1Cor15:23 "but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" means there doesn't remain only ONE POINT IN TIME for it, but a SEQUENCE/ORDER!]).

Post-trib has no case to be made. Imminent return is swept under the rug and no distinction is made between the "coming" and "coming" spoken about in Scriptures. Things that are different are not the same

 

[Absolutely]

I would think that if it were possible for believers(five wise virgins) to sell them oil then they would have not said that they would not in Matthew 25:9, nor would they explain why, "not enough for both".

It seems the five wise virgins are there present tense at the same time as Babylon(Revelation 18) who sells the oil and gold(Rev.18:12 and 16) or else they would not say "to those who sell oil..." as if they were present tense but instead would say, "go to the one who is coming who will sell oil" in a future tense.

The Idea or principle is that the Holy Spirit is transferrable.

We see it with samuel anointing David and saul also Elijah and Elisha.
Also in acts they recieved the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands.
"Give us some of yours"
"No,lest we not have enough for ourselves"

(Indicating there was no time left,and that it was normal to do so had there not been urgency)
IOW we wont be able to do anything for those not prepared.

 

[Absolutely]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand ears were finished. This is the first resurrection.


With this being THE FIRST RESURRECTION, how can a resurrection of any sort come before this, this obviously AFTER Satan?

So if they go to those who sell oil,and Babylon is who sells it,and only those who receive the mark can buy and sell then what do they have to do to buy the oil?

Not babylon.
The wise and the foolish had oil(Holy Spirit)
"Buy" is the same "buy" in rev in the 7 lets to 7 churches.

It just means "oil" was not obtained through a microwave quickness.

Just as our redemption/purchase was not with money.

 

[John146]

Post-trib has no case to be made. Imminent return is swept under the rug and no distinction is made between the "coming" and "coming" spoken about in Scriptures. Things that are different are not the same

Over and over Paul tells the churches to watch for Christ’s return, our glorious hope. If the Church was headed for the tribulation, Paul would be warning the churches over and over to look for the tribulation and stay away from the mark of the beast.

 

[DeighAnn]

If that is the case and the wicked are destroyed when the Lord returns, who is left in the flesh to populate the millennium? Who can rebel at the end of the millennium? Post-trib problems

Is Jesus returning to rule on the earth for a thousand years?