When was the Messiah put in the grave? and when did He resurrect?
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Possible, but when He says "THE ONLY SIGN" and says 3 days and 3 nights... False messiah's can decieve, only the REAL Messiah can be dead 3 days and 3 nights and resurrect. It is non sense to say, and I know you are not saying this
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 12:39-40, “But He answering, said to them, “A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Yonah[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. For as Yonah was three days and three nights in the sto[/FONT]mach of the great fish, so shall the Son of Aḏam be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”
Is not 3 and 3 in the tomb, sepulcher, grave, dead, sleeping, etc... and one would have to ignore lots of Scripture to have the timeline different and use extra biblical teachings...again I know you are not saying this, but the principle that it is not 3 and 3 of in what ever way dead in the tomb...
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 12:39-40, “But He answering, said to them, “A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Yonah[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. For as Yonah was three days and three nights in the sto[/FONT]mach of the great fish, so shall the Son of Aḏam be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”
Is not 3 and 3 in the tomb, sepulcher, grave, dead, sleeping, etc... and one would have to ignore lots of Scripture to have the timeline different and use extra biblical teachings...again I know you are not saying this, but the principle that it is not 3 and 3 of in what ever way dead in the tomb...
Oh Marc....don't you believe that Thursday was a 'high day/sabbath Joh 19v31 and no work was allowed....it started the moment Jesus was entombed wednesday sunset...no time then either. There was only friday and it took all day for the women to do what they had to do. They bought spices and returned to prepare them...as scripture says....when the sabbath/high day (Thursday) was past.
Do you not believe in a Wednesday crucifixion and a sabbath resurrection ? It is very fitting that the Son of God should rise on God's Holy day !
Do you not believe in a Wednesday crucifixion and a sabbath resurrection ? It is very fitting that the Son of God should rise on God's Holy day !
I think there is misunderstanding...i do not say that Yahshua was not dead, of course He was but He also used the death of Lazarus to call it 'sleep...a state from which one can be awoken...which was exactly at His own predicted time. None of what I say is 'extra biblical teaching. I am focusing more on why Jesus did not use the word Tomb because of what it implies and He was not to be 'holden by the grave. Isn't there a scripture somewhere ?
No you misunderstood me, I know you dont say any of those things, I personally don't know why these exact words were used, I always thought it was because of what is written in the book of Jonah, and it had to do with the original hebrew, I did study it but I cant remember, but it is to me not much of too much consequence because it was evident what 3 and 3 in the heart of the earth meant. However I should re study it now...
I'm sorry Marc, as I see it the women could not have bought and prepared spices on a Tuesday because they 'rested the next day 'as per Commandment/sabbath and went to the tomb early following morning/sunday.
that is just as it falls into place...why have you a problem with friday being the day when the spices were prepared ?
that is just as it falls into place...why have you a problem with friday being the day when the spices were prepared ?
There is only one way to answer that, by what Jesus taught it was.
Matthew 16:21 "From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life."
Matthew 17:22-23 “When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.23 They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.” And the disciples were filled with grief.”
Matthew 20:18-19 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”
Luke 9:22 “And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”
This teaching of Jesus is the most informative teaching on His atoning work.
Luke 18:31-33 “Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him;33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
Mark 8:31 “He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.”
Mark 9:31 “He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.”
Mark 10:33-34 “We are going up to Jerusalem,” he said, “and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemnhim to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles,34 who will mock him and spiton him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise.”
Do you see one Scripture where Jesus is teaching about His atoning work where He taught the disciples that He would be in the Tomb 3 days and nights? Read Isaiah 53 then read these Scripture again and explain how they come to mean in the Tomb. If you will also notice evryone that has started this discussion with me I have asked for Scripture where Jesus taught His disciples that "heart of the earth" or 3 days and nights mean in the Tomb, none have post one Scripture where Jesus taught that. The reason being He did not teach that, even beta who said there are many Scripture and that those Scripture would crush me, has not post one Scripture of what she says are many.
The problem is that this idea is the traditions of men, not what Jesus taught and people are so stuck on what men have taught them that they refuse to listen to what Jesus actually taught in the Scriptures.
Since you seem to believe the same as those other brothers and sisters I will sak you to post Scripture where Jesus taught His disciples that He would be in the Tomb for 3 days and nights ir rise after three days?
I would love to read them, so I can believe the Scriptures on what Jesus taught about His atoning work for our sins.
The tradition of men, and what men have taught, is that Jesus died Friday afternoon and was resurrected Sunday morning.
Mat 12:40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
And here's a couple you posted:
Mark 8:31 “He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.”
Mark 9:31 “He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.”
..but believe as you wish.
Mat 12:40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
And here's a couple you posted:
Mark 8:31 “He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.”
Mark 9:31 “He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.”
..but believe as you wish.
You yourself have quoted the very scriptures that can help you understand that Jesus had to be killed first before He could rise again after 3 days Mk 9v31....which means Jesus' suffering at the hands of evil men was not all there is to the resurrection.
And even tho Jesus did not 'specify the word 'tomb, nevertheless that is where He was placed after death...into the heart of a rock symbolizing the heart of the earth.
And even tho Jesus did not 'specify the word 'tomb, nevertheless that is where He was placed after death...into the heart of a rock symbolizing the heart of the earth.
The tradition of men, and what men have taught, is that Jesus died Friday afternoon and was resurrected Sunday morning.
Mat 12:40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
And here's a couple you posted:
Mark 8:31 “He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.”
Mark 9:31 “He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.”
..but believe as you wish.
Mat 12:40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
And here's a couple you posted:
Mark 8:31 “He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.”
Mark 9:31 “He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.”
..but believe as you wish.
You need to read the full teaching of those Scriptures, they say the Son of man must suffer many things and be killed and rise to life, they do not say He would be in the Tomb the 3 days. In Luke 18 He said "everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled." Read Isaiah 53 to see His full work of atonemnt.
The Tomb is only a part of what He would suffer at the hand of the chief priets, elders, teacher of the Law and the Gentiles.
The Tomb is only a part of what He would suffer at the hand of the chief priets, elders, teacher of the Law and the Gentiles.
Sister I never said I did not accept His prediction, which is that His atoning work would take place in a 72 hour period. But Matthew 12:40 does not say anything about the Tomb, it is assumed that it means the Tomb, but as I have shown when Jesus taught His disciple about what His would suffer in His atoning work He never once says He is talking about that Tomb. What I am saying is that work that is prophesied in Isaiah 53 all happens in that 72 hour time period, that 53:5 is part of that 72 hour period, I do not want to post a bunch of Scriptures about Isaiah 53 because it is to much to read so I am going to take this verse and show where it was fulfilled in Christ's time before the chief preists, elders, teacher of the Law and that Gentiles.
Isaiah 53:5 “But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.”
Matthew 27:30 “Then they spat on Him, and took the reed and struck Him on the head.”
Mark 14:65 and Luke 22:64 as well as John 19:3 “Then some began to spit on Him, and to blindfold Him, and to beat Him, and to say to Him, “Prophesy!” And the officers struck Him with the palms of their hands.”
Mark 15:19-20 “Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they worshiped Him.20 And when they had mocked Him, they took the purple off Him, put His own clothes on Him, and led Him out to crucify Him.”
Matthew 27:41-42 “Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders, said,42 “He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him.”
John 19:1 “Then Pilate took Jesus and flogged him.”
These Scriptures fulfill Isaiah 53:5.
John 20:18-19 “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, 19 and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.”
Notice Jesus teaches that these things would happen and the third day He will rise again. Not that once He is died He would be in the Tomb 3 days and they are what Isaiah prophesied in 53:5. There is lots more that Isaiah prophesied about Jesus atoning work that Jesus Himself taught and where fulfilled between the time of His arrest, being handed over to Pilate, being cruxified and being in the Tomb.
Also read the first part of Isaiah 53:9 "And they made His grave with the wicked—but with the rich at His death,"
Does "grave" mean Tomb here? No, because He was buried in a rich man's Tomb or "with the rich at His death" So when was He with the wicked in the grave? Because it was not in the Tomb, it has to be what Jesus said in John 20:18-19, the time of His atoning work before He was placed in the Tomb and raised to life.
Here is what His disciples said and what He said after His resurrection. Luke 24:19-21, 25-26, 44-46
“And he said to them, “What things?”
And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,20 and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him.21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened.....
25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believeall that the prophets have spoken!26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?...
44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead,”
No mention from Jesus or the disclpes about Jesus being in the Tomb 3 days, only about the chief priests and rules delievered condemned to death to be crucified and now it is the third day since these things happened. Now Jesus says foolish slow of heart to believe all that the prophets spoke, that the Christ should uffer many thing and enter His glory, no mention of 3 days in the Tomb. Then Jesus reminds them that everything written in the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled, then He tells them again what was written, that He should suffer and rise on the third day. Again nothing about being in the Tomb for 3 days, look in the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms and they do not say anything about Him being in the Tomb 3 days, only all He would suffer in His atoning work, with Isaiah having all that His atoning work has involved.
And they all happened before he was laid in the grave.
That is a simple denial on your part of what the words say.
"Grave" equals "tomb" equals "in the heart of the earth".
Jesus Christ Himself said he would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. While he was being tortured, flogged, questioned, etc, he was not in the heart of the earth.
The problem seems to be the phrase "on the third day". You insist it means that Jesus was raised from the dead two days after he was killed. (Killed Friday, day 1; dead Saturday, day 2; raised Sunday, day 3, or the "third day"). But to believe that way causes you to have to ignore the records in Mark, where Jesus Himself said that "after three days" he would be raised from the dead, and you have to insist that Jesus' words "in the heart of the earth" do not mean in the grave.
To me, the weight of evidence strongly says that he was dead and in the tomb for three days and three nights. I believe the phrase "on the third day" should be understood as "the third day since".
That is a simple denial on your part of what the words say.
"Grave" equals "tomb" equals "in the heart of the earth".
Jesus Christ Himself said he would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. While he was being tortured, flogged, questioned, etc, he was not in the heart of the earth.
The problem seems to be the phrase "on the third day". You insist it means that Jesus was raised from the dead two days after he was killed. (Killed Friday, day 1; dead Saturday, day 2; raised Sunday, day 3, or the "third day"). But to believe that way causes you to have to ignore the records in Mark, where Jesus Himself said that "after three days" he would be raised from the dead, and you have to insist that Jesus' words "in the heart of the earth" do not mean in the grave.
To me, the weight of evidence strongly says that he was dead and in the tomb for three days and three nights. I believe the phrase "on the third day" should be understood as "the third day since".
If you take what we know to be true and run it backwards in time, it proves you are mistaken just as Beta has shown.
Saturday night, right after the Sabbath (Sundown) Mary went to the Grave and Jesus was already gone. Already resurrected. So did He suffer the day before? Or was He dead? So it can be proven scripturally He was dead on Saturday at least until close to sundown.
Did He suffer or was He dead on Friday of that week? He was dead as Mary gathered spices for His anointment which she wouldn't have done had He been alive. So we know He was dead on Friday.
Was He dead on Thursday? Thursday was a High Sabbath of the First Day of unleavened Bread. WE know He was dead and placed in a tomb/grave/ground/ before the Sabbath as it is written. So He was dead on Thursday.
Was he dead on Wednesday? Well from scripture we know He was the Passover Lamb, and that He was placed in the tomb/grave/ground before a Sabbath. Given Friday(Preparation day for weekly Sabbath) was used to gather spices for His death, we know He was already dead on the preparation day. It couldn't have been the Friday of the week before, that is not possible given the written timeline. So it had to be that Wednesday was the day He was killed and taken down before sundown to make sure He was in the grave/tomb/ground before the Sabbath.
3 days, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. 3 Night, Wednesday night, Thursday Night, Friday Night.
Was it just a coincidence that Jesus said He would by in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights? Maybe, maybe not. But an accurate accounting of the scriptures clearly shows He was dead for 3 days and 3 nights regardless of Jonah.
And this accurate accounting of scripture agrees with His statement.
Mark 9:31 “He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.”
I'm not sure why you are so obsessed with trying to convince people He wasn't dead for 3 days.
Saturday night, right after the Sabbath (Sundown) Mary went to the Grave and Jesus was already gone. Already resurrected. So did He suffer the day before? Or was He dead? So it can be proven scripturally He was dead on Saturday at least until close to sundown.
Did He suffer or was He dead on Friday of that week? He was dead as Mary gathered spices for His anointment which she wouldn't have done had He been alive. So we know He was dead on Friday.
Was He dead on Thursday? Thursday was a High Sabbath of the First Day of unleavened Bread. WE know He was dead and placed in a tomb/grave/ground/ before the Sabbath as it is written. So He was dead on Thursday.
Was he dead on Wednesday? Well from scripture we know He was the Passover Lamb, and that He was placed in the tomb/grave/ground before a Sabbath. Given Friday(Preparation day for weekly Sabbath) was used to gather spices for His death, we know He was already dead on the preparation day. It couldn't have been the Friday of the week before, that is not possible given the written timeline. So it had to be that Wednesday was the day He was killed and taken down before sundown to make sure He was in the grave/tomb/ground before the Sabbath.
3 days, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. 3 Night, Wednesday night, Thursday Night, Friday Night.
Was it just a coincidence that Jesus said He would by in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights? Maybe, maybe not. But an accurate accounting of the scriptures clearly shows He was dead for 3 days and 3 nights regardless of Jonah.
And this accurate accounting of scripture agrees with His statement.
Mark 9:31 “He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.”
I'm not sure why you are so obsessed with trying to convince people He wasn't dead for 3 days.
Yes they did, they happened before He was cruxified.
Okay, so you are saying that Jesus was in the Tomb with the wicked? Because Isaiah said in 53:9 “And they made his grave with the wicked” Can you post the Scriptures(s) that say He was in the Tomb with the wicked? No you can't because we know that He was not in the Tomb with the wicked, but by your interpretation the heart of the earth, grave equals Tomb would mean He was in the Tomb with the wicked.
But you still have not posted Scripture where Jesus defines it as 3 days and nights in the Tomb.
That is where you are wrong and it shows that you are not reading the Scripture that I have been posting about Jesus' teaching about His atoning work, I posted Mark 8:31, 9:31 and 10:34, but more then that you are ignoring what Jesus teaches what happens before the end of those 3 days and they all teach what He taught in Luke 18:31-33
“And taking the twelve, he said to them, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written about the Son of Man by the prophets will be accomplished.32 For he will be delivered over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and shamefully treated and spit upon.33 And after flogging him, they will kill him, and on the third day he will rise.”
Jesus is teaching that all these things will take place in that 3 day period and after the days He will rise to life. Read all of His teachings to the disciples and He never defines "heart of the earth" as the Tomb, He always teaches that He would suffer many things and He explains what they are.
Now I know you have not read all the Scriptures that I have posted, with the phrase "on the third day" or "after three days" not one of them say one thing about it being the Tomb, they are all associated with Him being delivered to the Gentiles, being rejected by the chief priests, elders, teachers of the Law, that He would be mocked, spit on. And after flogging Him, they will kill Him, and He will rise the third day. Jesus teaches that He would suffer all those things and associates them with the 3 days and if you read the story they happened both day and night. Him being before the Jews was at night, led to the Gentiles in the morning, He was macked, spit on, flogged and cruxified in the day. Read Luke 18:31-33 it is posted above. Jesus is teaching that everything written about Him by the prophets will be accomplished. Again if you read Isaiah 53 he prophesies about all that the Christ would suffer for the atonement of our sins and it is not just dying and being placed in the Tomb.
I will ask you what I have asked others can you post Scripture where it is prophesied that Jesus would be in the Tomb 3 days and nights in the OT? Remember what Paul said in I Corinthians 15:3-4 “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,”
These words and Jesus' where He said everything that the prophets had written about Him will be accomplished that caused my to search the Scriptures to find where they said He was in the Tomb for 3 days and I found nothing. I only found the Scripture that I have posted and they associate Him being rejected by the chief priests, elders, teachers of the Law, being handed over to the Gentiles, being spit on, flogged and all He suffered at their hands plus His crucifixtion and death all are part of the three days.
Okay, so you are saying that Jesus was in the Tomb with the wicked? Because Isaiah said in 53:9 “And they made his grave with the wicked” Can you post the Scriptures(s) that say He was in the Tomb with the wicked? No you can't because we know that He was not in the Tomb with the wicked, but by your interpretation the heart of the earth, grave equals Tomb would mean He was in the Tomb with the wicked.
But you still have not posted Scripture where Jesus defines it as 3 days and nights in the Tomb.
That is where you are wrong and it shows that you are not reading the Scripture that I have been posting about Jesus' teaching about His atoning work, I posted Mark 8:31, 9:31 and 10:34, but more then that you are ignoring what Jesus teaches what happens before the end of those 3 days and they all teach what He taught in Luke 18:31-33
“And taking the twelve, he said to them, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written about the Son of Man by the prophets will be accomplished.32 For he will be delivered over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and shamefully treated and spit upon.33 And after flogging him, they will kill him, and on the third day he will rise.”
Jesus is teaching that all these things will take place in that 3 day period and after the days He will rise to life. Read all of His teachings to the disciples and He never defines "heart of the earth" as the Tomb, He always teaches that He would suffer many things and He explains what they are.
Now I know you have not read all the Scriptures that I have posted, with the phrase "on the third day" or "after three days" not one of them say one thing about it being the Tomb, they are all associated with Him being delivered to the Gentiles, being rejected by the chief priests, elders, teachers of the Law, that He would be mocked, spit on. And after flogging Him, they will kill Him, and He will rise the third day. Jesus teaches that He would suffer all those things and associates them with the 3 days and if you read the story they happened both day and night. Him being before the Jews was at night, led to the Gentiles in the morning, He was macked, spit on, flogged and cruxified in the day. Read Luke 18:31-33 it is posted above. Jesus is teaching that everything written about Him by the prophets will be accomplished. Again if you read Isaiah 53 he prophesies about all that the Christ would suffer for the atonement of our sins and it is not just dying and being placed in the Tomb.
I will ask you what I have asked others can you post Scripture where it is prophesied that Jesus would be in the Tomb 3 days and nights in the OT? Remember what Paul said in I Corinthians 15:3-4 “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,”
These words and Jesus' where He said everything that the prophets had written about Him will be accomplished that caused my to search the Scriptures to find where they said He was in the Tomb for 3 days and I found nothing. I only found the Scripture that I have posted and they associate Him being rejected by the chief priests, elders, teachers of the Law, being handed over to the Gentiles, being spit on, flogged and all He suffered at their hands plus His crucifixtion and death all are part of the three days.
In the OT? There are none that I know of. But Jesus himself said he would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. I believe him.
Yes. And we know from the words of Jesus in Mark and Matthew that he would be dead for three days and three nights.
Check Matt 12:40.
That's where we disagree.
Your mind is made up. So is mine. Time will tell.
God bless.
(BTW, I did read all the scriptures you posted. I believe you are misunderstanding them.)
Yes. And we know from the words of Jesus in Mark and Matthew that he would be dead for three days and three nights.
Check Matt 12:40.
That's where we disagree.
Your mind is made up. So is mine. Time will tell.
God bless.
(BTW, I did read all the scriptures you posted. I believe you are misunderstanding them.)