Where Americas Founders Deists or Christians or Something Else?
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On the surface, the founding fathers appear to be open minded enough and respectful of eachothers' philosophy. They all grew up in the church and/or Christian community, and I do not believe any of them were atheists or agnostic. I am sure they have all read the Bible, and knew Scripture very well. They all believed in God, even if they questioned aspects of Christianity. They held basic Christian moral truths, however they do not appear to be the fire and brimstone modern-day evangelical/Southern Baptist Christians. Not only were they deists, but also Quakers and Unitarians.
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Yes, which is the First Amendment to the Constitution in the Bill of Rights, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", although it does not affirm the Gospel.
Some of the other amendments regarding equal rights also reflect the NT value of GL 3:28.
Some of the other amendments regarding equal rights also reflect the NT value of GL 3:28.
how about for example, why does it matter if this country was founded by Christians?
what does it prove or disprove, if Christian principles, ethics and/or values are fundamental or not fundamental to the way the government of this country was organized?
what does it show, that the founding fathers had mostly Judeo-Christian beliefs, yet some did not?
would any of this make Christianity a fundamental core foundation of the US? what if it does, and what if it doesn't?
in what kind of arguments does the question of the religious beliefs of the founding fathers come up? what point is proven by their being mostly Christians, or by them being not all one denomination, or not all Christians, or even if some were atheist?
what does it prove or disprove, if Christian principles, ethics and/or values are fundamental or not fundamental to the way the government of this country was organized?
what does it show, that the founding fathers had mostly Judeo-Christian beliefs, yet some did not?
would any of this make Christianity a fundamental core foundation of the US? what if it does, and what if it doesn't?
in what kind of arguments does the question of the religious beliefs of the founding fathers come up? what point is proven by their being mostly Christians, or by them being not all one denomination, or not all Christians, or even if some were atheist?
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what do you mean by 'political correctness'?
that's a broad term which as i understand it, encompasses a general principle of choosing one's words in such a way not to be needlessly offensive.
is it really never a good idea to avoid unnecessary offense? isn't that actually a Biblical principle? e.g.
that's a broad term which as i understand it, encompasses a general principle of choosing one's words in such a way not to be needlessly offensive.
is it really never a good idea to avoid unnecessary offense? isn't that actually a Biblical principle? e.g.
1 Corinthians 10:32
Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God
.. or do you mean something else entirely by that phrase? 
Hey, bro, I'm going to challenge that a bit.
Instead of Christian foundation I'm going with Biblical Christianity or even Judaeo/Christian values. I thought the following was interesting. The Biblical roots of the Declaration of Independence. Deuteronomy 32:8 - When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
Ezra 6:21 - And the children of Israel, which were come again out of captivity, and all such as had separated themselves unto them from the filthiness of the heathen of the land, to seek the LORD God of Israel, did eat,
Romans 2:14 – 16 - For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.Psalm 19:7 - The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. 1 Peter 3:15 - But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
Psalms 19:1 THE heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Leviticus 24:22 - Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.
Romans 2:11 - For there is no respect of persons with God.
Genesis 9:6 - Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Exodus 20:15 - Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 21:16 - And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
Psalms 128:2 - For thou shalt eat the labour of thine hands: happy shalt thou be, and it shall be well with thee.
Ecclesiastes 3:13 - And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.
Leviticus 25:10 - And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubilee unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family
“That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,”
In John Wycliffe’s first English Bible (1384), the General Prologue states this purpose:
“This Bible is for the Government of the People, by the People, and for the People.”
Exodus 19:7 – 8 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
Deuteronomy 16:18 – 19 - Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment. Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous. Galatians 5:1- STAND fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Isaiah 9:6 – 7 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. “That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”
Leviticus 25:10 - And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.
Psalms 133:1 - Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Jeremiah 34:15 – 17 - And ye were now turned, and had done right in my sight, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbour; and ye had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name: But ye turned and polluted my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom ye had set at liberty at their pleasure, to return, and brought them into subjection, to be unto you for servants and for handmaids. Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ye have not hearkened unto me, in proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother, and every man to his neighbour: behold, I proclaim a liberty for you, saith the LORD, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.
Philippians 2:2-4 - Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
“Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.”
Matthew 22:20 – 21 - And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Cæsar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Cæsar the things which are Cæsar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Titus 3:1 – 2 - PUT them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government….”
Isaiah 61:1 – 3 - THE Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
Continuing....
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Hey, bro, I'm going to challenge that a bit. Instead of Christian foundation I'm going with Biblical Christianity or even Judaeo/Christian values. I thought the following was interesting. The Biblical roots of the Declaration of Independence.
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Instead of Christian foundation I'm going with Biblical Christianity or even Judaeo/Christian values. I thought the following was interesting. The Biblical roots of the Declaration of Independence. .
“…We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”
Deuteronomy 3:2 – 3 - And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining.
Judges 7:7 – 9 - And the LORD said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place. So the people took victuals in their hand, and their trumpets: and he sent all the rest of Israel every man unto his tent, and retained those three hundred men: and the host of Midian was beneath him in the valley. And it came to pass the same night, that the LORD said unto him, Arise, get thee down unto the host; for I have delivered it into thine hand.
2 Chronicles 7:14 - If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 32:20 – 22 - And for this cause Hezekiah the king, and the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz, prayed and cried to heaven. And the LORD sent an angel, which cut off all the mighty men of valour, and the leaders and captains in the camp of the king of Assyria. So he returned with shame of face to his own land. And when he was come into the house of his god, they that came forth of his own bowels slew him there with the sword. Thus the LORD saved Hezekiah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem from the hand of Sennacherib the king of Assyria, and from the hand of all other, and guided them on every side.
It is understandable, then, why John Adam felt that:
"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be.
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well, i certainly agree in the sense that Biblical ethics and morality greatly influenced our laws, and that there was a general assumption that a person in government would generally act with the kind of ethos and morality implicit in Christianity - - which we are unfortunately finding out was not a great assumption to make, because there are a lot of 'loopholes' that allow a person in office who has no such scruples or morality to take advantage of their power and thereby 'break' the system...
but as far as what kind of government we have overall, it's difficult to see any kind of pattern laid out in scripture for it, because for example there is no representative democracy in the Bible: the kingdom of God is a monarchy, as was Israel, and the apostles and those they taught did not involve themselves in worldly politics at all.
even if one takes the example of the Jerusalem council or how the apostles chose Matthias, this isn't democracy - no one is 'voting' on decison making in the Bible, but inquiring of God, of the Spirit. In that sense, american government certainly isn't 'Biblically based' or founded.
there is a closer parallel in the way the catholic church is set up, with a papacy and council of cardinals, which mimics the medieval system of a leigelord or king, with a bloc of wealthy landed nobility.
what i think we can say is that the american form of government has a cultural Christian influence, for sure, but as a system it was designed from purely secular cues, in such a way that the people would have freedom to self-govern, and adapt to their changing social mores over time - - with safeguards as far as they could foresee, to prevent authoritarianism. we are seeing now that those safeguards were probably shortsighted, and insufficient.
but as far as what kind of government we have overall, it's difficult to see any kind of pattern laid out in scripture for it, because for example there is no representative democracy in the Bible: the kingdom of God is a monarchy, as was Israel, and the apostles and those they taught did not involve themselves in worldly politics at all.
even if one takes the example of the Jerusalem council or how the apostles chose Matthias, this isn't democracy - no one is 'voting' on decison making in the Bible, but inquiring of God, of the Spirit. In that sense, american government certainly isn't 'Biblically based' or founded.
there is a closer parallel in the way the catholic church is set up, with a papacy and council of cardinals, which mimics the medieval system of a leigelord or king, with a bloc of wealthy landed nobility.
what i think we can say is that the american form of government has a cultural Christian influence, for sure, but as a system it was designed from purely secular cues, in such a way that the people would have freedom to self-govern, and adapt to their changing social mores over time - - with safeguards as far as they could foresee, to prevent authoritarianism. we are seeing now that those safeguards were probably shortsighted, and insufficient.
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