Where do we find…?
- Thread starter crossnote
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Yes, but only those who willingly receive Christ are recipients of the same.
Surely, you must know this.
Because they're inseparable.
In essence, God loves Christ. He is his beloved Son in whom he is well-pleased. IF we're found to be "in Christ", THEN we're "accepted in the beloved" (Eph. 1:6) or accepted in Christ.
Anyhow, believe it or not (believe it), I understand the point that you're trying to make.
You're saying that none of us did anything to make God send Jesus, but that God did it because he loves the world, and that is correct. However, and this is BIG HOWEVER, God himself attached a condition to us being recipients of the very love that he sent, and that condition is that we need to embrace Christ and ultimately be found in him.
Surely, you understand what I'm saying, right?
Surely, you must know this.
Accepting His death on our behalf is the condition for salvation.
Why are you incapable of separating the two?
Why are you incapable of separating the two?
In essence, God loves Christ. He is his beloved Son in whom he is well-pleased. IF we're found to be "in Christ", THEN we're "accepted in the beloved" (Eph. 1:6) or accepted in Christ.
Anyhow, believe it or not (believe it), I understand the point that you're trying to make.
You're saying that none of us did anything to make God send Jesus, but that God did it because he loves the world, and that is correct. However, and this is BIG HOWEVER, God himself attached a condition to us being recipients of the very love that he sent, and that condition is that we need to embrace Christ and ultimately be found in him.
Surely, you understand what I'm saying, right?
-
1
- Show all
You are saying God does not love sinners. Which you were when God extended
mercy and grace to you, circumcising your heart because He loved you. He loved
you before you accepted His offer of salvation. God's love moves people to accept.
Nobody has ever done anything to deserve God's love.
You keep conflating His love with the condition for salvation.
mercy and grace to you, circumcising your heart because He loved you. He loved
you before you accepted His offer of salvation. God's love moves people to accept.
Nobody has ever done anything to deserve God's love.
You keep conflating His love with the condition for salvation.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
It depends on how you interpret the scripture.
Either God ordained that anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be the elect. Or God elected certain individuals purely as an act of His will and these call on the name of the Lord only.
This difficulty in the understanding of God's will is further complicated. In that we do know, in fact, that Jeremiah, John the Baptist, Paul and the apostles, were all predestined. They were chosen, they were elect, before the foundation of the world.
Perhaps the following verse may apply.
Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.
No one can be absolutely sure which paradigm of God's will is the correct paradigm. Both interpretations can be supported by the scripture.
Yet, we should concern ourselves with the love of the Lord and others. Knowing full well that the mechanics of God's election has no bearing, on what we have been commanded to do.
Either God ordained that anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be the elect. Or God elected certain individuals purely as an act of His will and these call on the name of the Lord only.
This difficulty in the understanding of God's will is further complicated. In that we do know, in fact, that Jeremiah, John the Baptist, Paul and the apostles, were all predestined. They were chosen, they were elect, before the foundation of the world.
Perhaps the following verse may apply.
Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.
No one can be absolutely sure which paradigm of God's will is the correct paradigm. Both interpretations can be supported by the scripture.
Yet, we should concern ourselves with the love of the Lord and others. Knowing full well that the mechanics of God's election has no bearing, on what we have been commanded to do.
Here is a brief introduction to the subject.
3439 monogenḗs (from 3411 /misthōtós, "one-and-only" and 1085 /génos, "offspring, stock") – properly, one-and-only; "one of a kind" – literally, "one (monos) of a class, genos" (the only of its kind).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3439: μονογενής
μονογενής, μονογενές (μόνος and γένος) (Cicero,unigena; Vulg. (in Lukeunicus, elsewhere) and in ecclesiastical writingsunigenitus), single of its kind, only (A. V. only-begotten); used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents), Hesiod theog. 426, 448; Herodotus 7, 221; Plato, Critias 113 d.; Josephus, Antiquities 1, 13, 1; 2, 7, 4; μονογενές τέκνον πατρί, Aeschylus Ag. 898. So in the Scriptures: Hebrews 11:17; μονογενῆ εἶναι τίνι (to be one's only son or daughter), Judges 11:34; Tobit 3:15; Luke 7:12; Luke 8:42; Luke 9:38; (cf. Westcott on Epistles of John, pp. 162ff). Hence, the expression ὁ μονογενής υἱός τοῦ Θεοῦ and υἱός τοῦ Θεοῦ ὁ μονογονης, John 3:16, 18; John 1:18 (see below); 1 John 4:9; μονογενής παρά πατρός, John 1:14 (some take this generally, owing to the omission of the article (cf. Green, pp. 48f)), used of Christ, denotes the only son of God or one who in the sense in which he himself is the son of God has no brethren. He is so spoken of by John not because ὁ λόγος which was ἐνσαρκωθεις in him was eternally generated by God the Father (the orthodox interpretation), or came forth from the being of God just before the beginning of the world (Subordinationism), but because by the incarnation (ἐνσαρκωσις) of the λόγος in him he is of nature or essentially Son of God, and so in a very different sense from that in which men are made by him τέκνα τοῦ Θεοῦ (John 1:13). For since in the writings of John the title ὁ ἱυος τοῦ Θεοῦ is given only to the historic Christ so called, neither the Logos alone, nor Jesus alone, but ὁ λόγος ὁ ἐνσαρκωθεις or Jesus through the λόγος united with God, is ὁ μονογενής υἱός τοῦ Θεοῦ. The reading μονογενής Θεός (without the article before μονογενής) in John 1:18, — which is supported by no inconsiderable weight of ancient testimony, received into the text by Tregelles, and Westcott and Hort, defended with much learning by Dr. Hort ("On μονογενής Θεός in Scripture and Tradition in his Two Dissertations" Camb. and Lond. 1876), and seems not improbable to Harnack (in the Theol. Lit.-Zeit. for 1876, p. 541ff) (and Weiss (in Meyer 6te Aufl. at the passage)), but is foreign to John's mode of thought and speech (John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9), dissonant and harsh — appears to owe its origin to a dogmatic zeal which broke out soon after the early days of the church; (see articles on the reading by Prof. Abbot in the Bib. Sacr. for Oct. 1861 and in the Unitarian Rev. for June 1875 (in the latter copious references to other discussions of the same passage are given); see also Prof. Drummond in the Theol. Rev. for Oct. 1871). Further, see Grimm, Exgt. Hdbch. on Sap., p. 152f; (Westcott as above).
Monogenes has two primary definitions, "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship" and "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind".[1] Thus monogenēs (μονογενής) may be used both as an adjective monogenēs pais, meaning unique and special.[2] Its Greek meaning is often applied to mean "one of a kind, one and only". Monogenēs may be used as an adjective. For example, monogenēs pais means only child, only legitimate child or special child. Monogenēs may also be used on its own as a noun. For example, o monogenēs means "the only one", or "the only legitimate child".[3]
The word is used in Hebrews 11:17-19 to describe Isaac, the son of Abraham. However, Isaac was not the only-begotten son of Abraham, but was the chosen, having special virtue.[4] Thus Isaac was "the only legitimate child" of Abraham. That is, Isaac was the only son of Abraham that God acknowledged as the legitimate son of the covenant. It does not mean that Isaac was not literally "begotten" of Abraham, for he indeed was, but that he alone was acknowledged as the son that God had promised.
The term is notable outside normal Greek usage in two special areas: in the cosmology of Plato and in the Gospel of John. As concerns the use by Plato there is broad academic consensus, generally following the understanding of the philosopher Proclus (412–485 AD).
3439 monogenḗs (from 3411 /misthōtós, "one-and-only" and 1085 /génos, "offspring, stock") – properly, one-and-only; "one of a kind" – literally, "one (monos) of a class, genos" (the only of its kind).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3439: μονογενής
μονογενής, μονογενές (μόνος and γένος) (Cicero,unigena; Vulg. (in Lukeunicus, elsewhere) and in ecclesiastical writingsunigenitus), single of its kind, only (A. V. only-begotten); used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents), Hesiod theog. 426, 448; Herodotus 7, 221; Plato, Critias 113 d.; Josephus, Antiquities 1, 13, 1; 2, 7, 4; μονογενές τέκνον πατρί, Aeschylus Ag. 898. So in the Scriptures: Hebrews 11:17; μονογενῆ εἶναι τίνι (to be one's only son or daughter), Judges 11:34; Tobit 3:15; Luke 7:12; Luke 8:42; Luke 9:38; (cf. Westcott on Epistles of John, pp. 162ff). Hence, the expression ὁ μονογενής υἱός τοῦ Θεοῦ and υἱός τοῦ Θεοῦ ὁ μονογονης, John 3:16, 18; John 1:18 (see below); 1 John 4:9; μονογενής παρά πατρός, John 1:14 (some take this generally, owing to the omission of the article (cf. Green, pp. 48f)), used of Christ, denotes the only son of God or one who in the sense in which he himself is the son of God has no brethren. He is so spoken of by John not because ὁ λόγος which was ἐνσαρκωθεις in him was eternally generated by God the Father (the orthodox interpretation), or came forth from the being of God just before the beginning of the world (Subordinationism), but because by the incarnation (ἐνσαρκωσις) of the λόγος in him he is of nature or essentially Son of God, and so in a very different sense from that in which men are made by him τέκνα τοῦ Θεοῦ (John 1:13). For since in the writings of John the title ὁ ἱυος τοῦ Θεοῦ is given only to the historic Christ so called, neither the Logos alone, nor Jesus alone, but ὁ λόγος ὁ ἐνσαρκωθεις or Jesus through the λόγος united with God, is ὁ μονογενής υἱός τοῦ Θεοῦ. The reading μονογενής Θεός (without the article before μονογενής) in John 1:18, — which is supported by no inconsiderable weight of ancient testimony, received into the text by Tregelles, and Westcott and Hort, defended with much learning by Dr. Hort ("On μονογενής Θεός in Scripture and Tradition in his Two Dissertations" Camb. and Lond. 1876), and seems not improbable to Harnack (in the Theol. Lit.-Zeit. for 1876, p. 541ff) (and Weiss (in Meyer 6te Aufl. at the passage)), but is foreign to John's mode of thought and speech (John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9), dissonant and harsh — appears to owe its origin to a dogmatic zeal which broke out soon after the early days of the church; (see articles on the reading by Prof. Abbot in the Bib. Sacr. for Oct. 1861 and in the Unitarian Rev. for June 1875 (in the latter copious references to other discussions of the same passage are given); see also Prof. Drummond in the Theol. Rev. for Oct. 1871). Further, see Grimm, Exgt. Hdbch. on Sap., p. 152f; (Westcott as above).
Monogenes has two primary definitions, "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship" and "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind".[1] Thus monogenēs (μονογενής) may be used both as an adjective monogenēs pais, meaning unique and special.[2] Its Greek meaning is often applied to mean "one of a kind, one and only". Monogenēs may be used as an adjective. For example, monogenēs pais means only child, only legitimate child or special child. Monogenēs may also be used on its own as a noun. For example, o monogenēs means "the only one", or "the only legitimate child".[3]
The word is used in Hebrews 11:17-19 to describe Isaac, the son of Abraham. However, Isaac was not the only-begotten son of Abraham, but was the chosen, having special virtue.[4] Thus Isaac was "the only legitimate child" of Abraham. That is, Isaac was the only son of Abraham that God acknowledged as the legitimate son of the covenant. It does not mean that Isaac was not literally "begotten" of Abraham, for he indeed was, but that he alone was acknowledged as the son that God had promised.
The term is notable outside normal Greek usage in two special areas: in the cosmology of Plato and in the Gospel of John. As concerns the use by Plato there is broad academic consensus, generally following the understanding of the philosopher Proclus (412–485 AD).
It is beyond any debate that the nation of Israel was the chosen nation. The Gentile nations were the non-elect nations. Yet over time, the nation of Israel became hardened and then became the non-elect, no longer chosen of God.
This complex relationship between God's predestination (of Christ) and the observed outcome of His will. To some extent is difficult to comprehend. God definitely chose Israel but Israel failed. Therefore, God's sovereign will may invite some level of human obedience within that sovereign will.
This complex relationship between God's predestination (of Christ) and the observed outcome of His will. To some extent is difficult to comprehend. God definitely chose Israel but Israel failed. Therefore, God's sovereign will may invite some level of human obedience within that sovereign will.
-
1
- Show all
Our gender is a temporal state. God is not gender specific. We will soon no longer have a gender and that is for eternity.
The Jews are not white men, the gospel originated in Israel and not amongst white men.
This Muslim fellow should have realized that Abraham was the father of us all. Abraham is the father in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
The Jews are not white men, the gospel originated in Israel and not amongst white men.
This Muslim fellow should have realized that Abraham was the father of us all. Abraham is the father in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
To receive love you must receive the Holy Spirit, love is a free gift and not conditional.
To receive the Holy Spirit you must believe in Jesus, the only conditional aspect of salvation.
To believe in Jesus you must hear the gospel, not conditional again.
To apply love to God and others, is a conditional requirement placed on us.
God's love is always unconditional and unlimited, but man's response is deeply conditional.
To receive the Holy Spirit you must believe in Jesus, the only conditional aspect of salvation.
To believe in Jesus you must hear the gospel, not conditional again.
To apply love to God and others, is a conditional requirement placed on us.
God's love is always unconditional and unlimited, but man's response is deeply conditional.
-
1
- Show all
Twit
You need to apply all the good and pleasant things Jesus and the apostles said to those who were coming to Jesus and all the dark and threatening words they used to those who were coming against them.
He doesn't say the same things to the wheat as He does to the tares. The good tree has a different prognosis to the evil tree.
The baptiser doesn't rebuke and threaten those came to be baptised, he rebukes the Pharisees who came but were not baptised. It was those who turned the apostles away who will find it more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorra.
They were to go with the message of PEACE, "peace be upon this house"
We are to go with the GOOD NEWS to EVERY creature, we are not to go preaching what will happen to those who reject it. Tell people the GOOD NEWS, that is what will cause people to come.
Have you ever counted up the number of times Jesus comes saying "fear not" ?
You address only the goats and you frighten away the sheep.
You need to apply all the good and pleasant things Jesus and the apostles said to those who were coming to Jesus and all the dark and threatening words they used to those who were coming against them.
He doesn't say the same things to the wheat as He does to the tares. The good tree has a different prognosis to the evil tree.
The baptiser doesn't rebuke and threaten those came to be baptised, he rebukes the Pharisees who came but were not baptised. It was those who turned the apostles away who will find it more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorra.
They were to go with the message of PEACE, "peace be upon this house"
We are to go with the GOOD NEWS to EVERY creature, we are not to go preaching what will happen to those who reject it. Tell people the GOOD NEWS, that is what will cause people to come.
Have you ever counted up the number of times Jesus comes saying "fear not" ?
You address only the goats and you frighten away the sheep.
I firmly believe that no one is saved without explicit faith in Christ. And yet, it is tragic to hear that nearly 2 BILLION PEOPLE - nearly 25% of the World's Population - have still not heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, nearly 2000 years later. This burden, more than any other, imho, should rest on the heart of every man and woman of God. That somehow we must pray and work for them to have a chance to be saved.
I believe the Lord is not dependent on us, but He does command us to go everywhere and preach His Name to all Nations. Sometimes, we hear reports - especially in the Muslim world, where missionaries often cannot go - that the Lord appeared to some in a dream, and led them to faith in Him. We must pray that God opens up a path for missionaries everywhere to work together to bring all to Christ.
Time is short, and rapidly passing. 1000s upon thousands die every day. At the least, we should pray and fast for souls to be saved. When possible, when the Lord places others who don't know Christ in our path, we must witness to them that there is Salvation in His Name.
What I know for sure is that God died for all and gives all people sufficient grace to be saved. If they co-operate, they will come to Christ.
We see the example of Cornelius in Acts 10. Even before becoming a Christian, he used to pray, fast and give alms; because God is so Good and Merciful to all, in time, God led him to the Truth. First, an Angel appeared to him, and then St. Peter was sent to preach Christ.
Acts 10:
"30 So Cornelius said, “Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, 31 and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your alms are remembered in the sight of God ... 34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him ... 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
God Bless.
I believe the Lord is not dependent on us, but He does command us to go everywhere and preach His Name to all Nations. Sometimes, we hear reports - especially in the Muslim world, where missionaries often cannot go - that the Lord appeared to some in a dream, and led them to faith in Him. We must pray that God opens up a path for missionaries everywhere to work together to bring all to Christ.
Time is short, and rapidly passing. 1000s upon thousands die every day. At the least, we should pray and fast for souls to be saved. When possible, when the Lord places others who don't know Christ in our path, we must witness to them that there is Salvation in His Name.
What I know for sure is that God died for all and gives all people sufficient grace to be saved. If they co-operate, they will come to Christ.
We see the example of Cornelius in Acts 10. Even before becoming a Christian, he used to pray, fast and give alms; because God is so Good and Merciful to all, in time, God led him to the Truth. First, an Angel appeared to him, and then St. Peter was sent to preach Christ.
Acts 10:
"30 So Cornelius said, “Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, 31 and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your alms are remembered in the sight of God ... 34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him ... 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
God Bless.
-
1
- Show all