Which Jesus do you follow?

[okeyxyz]

More non sense. Jesus said, I didn't come to take away the law but to fulfill it for us. And now that He did that don't mean we can break the law.

If Jesus fulfilled(payed the debt of) the law on our behalf, then why are you still trying to pay a debt that is already settled? Paul urges us to go about in our new found freedom, apart from the law. Unfortunately people still want to keep the law because they still use the same interpretations of the law of Moses to view the Law of Liberty of christ.

 

[loveme1]

Actually, the law of Moses and it's derivatives(all human moralities) are the wide ways. Even people who do not keep these law still have a sin conscience engendered by this law, thus they testify that the law they break is right. But to be in the narrow way is to have a conscience that does not testify that this law of Moses is righteous. This law creates sin and is the sin itself, not the breaking of it.

The law of Moses was to bring Yahshua the Messiah into the world for our Salvation.

The Messiah gave His Testimony and we are to "hear" and "do".

Paul is teaching the New Testament which is by Faith.

Many would not accept this and believed they should be circumcised.

Now here is something for us all:

Acts 15

15 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
33 And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.
34 Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.
35 Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.
36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do.
37 And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.
38 But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;
40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.
41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

 

[Hizikyah]

The popular opinion of Jesus's(christian) gospel is that the doctrine he preached while alive is the same doctrine that carried on after his death and resurrection. But this is actually very erroneous thinking, There are actually two different christs, two personalities, two values, two different eras.

First there was the christ who came to fulfill the law (of Moses). The man Jesus, born of a virgin, he was the personification of the law, had perfect understanding of the law, lived and ultimately died as the law, and by dying as the law has rendered the law abolished. This was the christ that ended in death, just as the law ends in death. This jesus preached the same message of "thou shalt not..", spoke in parables and did not give understanding of scripture just like the law was a shadow(without understanding) of things(true christianity) to come.

Then there was (and still is) the christ who was born(resurrected) through the death of the first christ. This man no longer preaches the law but gives us absolute personal freedom from this law, we are no longer bound by the old interpretations and commandments of this law. This christ grants us absolute liberty to use and enjoy the riches of knowledge and experience of all creation, this christ makes us realize that there is absolutely no sin in anything God has created and declared to be good and fit for use by man, whether they be food, drink, knowledge, music, clothes, sex, etc, all things are meant for use and learning and to profit from. To them that believe, they cannot sin, just like God himself cannot sin by taking pleasure in his creation. There is no longer "thou shalt not..." for all things are sanctified for use.

Apostle Paul clearly preached the gospel of the second christ and ask us to hence forth disregard the old christ, for his era(the era of the law of sin and death) is gone, having been abolished by his death and he declares that we no longer abide by his lifestyle when he says:

Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh(human tradition, the law); even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.(2 Corinthians 5:16).

So we no longer follow the Law's definition of right and wrong. Where the law had before (mis)judged and forbade us from indulging/using our natural, God-given desires, curiosities and sensualities. Thus, our intellectual, spiritual and sensual attributes are no longer sins but are in fact righteous attributes and expectations. The law is absolutely abolished.

This is the exact doctrine that will allow the mystery of iniquity come to fulness...The exact thing spoken against in all the Scriptures is now gladly accepted and others are spoken evil of for not loving satans lie...

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your hneighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"
the word Law is: 3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law Original Word: νόμος, ου,
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: nomos Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os) Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law
Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.

Mattithyah 24:12-13, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold. But he who endures until the end, the same will be saved."

Mattithyah 7:21, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 ἀνομία anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Mattithyah 24:35, "Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words will not pass away."

I think this mystery of iniquity goes beyong the faulty "OT God NT God" falsehood, I think it is more like "OT God, 2 NT Gods and now a twisted version of Paul's writings are your God."

If you trash the words of the Messiah surely one wont listen to the Father...but here is a ENDTIME prophecy, He knows the END from the BEGINNING.

Isayah 24:1-6, "Behold, Yahweh makes the earth empty and makes it waste, perverts the face of it and scatters abroad its inhabitants; And it will be: as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his owner; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with him who takes usury, so with him who gives usury to him: The land will be utterly emptied and utterly plundered, for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away, the world mourns and fades away, and the haughty people of the earth languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants of it, because they have transgressed the Laws, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant. Because of this, the curse has devoured the earth, and they who dwell therein are desolate; therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."

The Messiah supports this truth also

Mattithyah 24:21-22, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

Mattithyah 24:12-13, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold. But he who endures until the end, the same will be saved."

 

[okeyxyz]

All things are lawful though not expedient.

So you agree that all things (in creation) are lawful? In other words: There is no sin in nature. All things are good and fit for use by man, as was intended in genesis. But better to use them for your development and profit instead of being addicted to them.

 

[starfield]

The popular opinion of Jesus's(christian) gospel is that the doctrine he preached while alive is the same doctrine that carried on after his death and resurrection. But this is actually very erroneous thinking, There are actually two different christs, two personalities, two values, two different eras.

First there was the christ who came to fulfill the law (of Moses). The man Jesus, born of a virgin, he was the personification of the law, had perfect understanding of the law, lived and ultimately died as the law, and by dying as the law has rendered the law abolished. This was the christ that ended in death, just as the law ends in death. This jesus preached the same message of "thou shalt not..", spoke in parables and did not give understanding of scripture just like the law was a shadow(without understanding) of things(true christianity) to come.

Then there was (and still is) the christ who was born(resurrected) through the death of the first christ. This man no longer preaches the law but gives us absolute personal freedom from this law, we are no longer bound by the old interpretations and commandments of this law. This christ grants us absolute liberty to use and enjoy the riches of knowledge and experience of all creation, this christ makes us realize that there is absolutely no sin in anything God has created and declared to be good and fit for use by man, whether they be food, drink, knowledge, music, clothes, sex, etc, all things are meant for use and learning and to profit from. To them that believe, they cannot sin, just like God himself cannot sin by taking pleasure in his creation. There is no longer "thou shalt not..." for all things are sanctified for use.

Apostle Paul clearly preached the gospel of the second christ and ask us to hence forth disregard the old christ, for his era(the era of the law of sin and death) is gone, having been abolished by his death and he declares that we no longer abide by his lifestyle when he says:...

There is one Christ and one gospel, and Paul and Christ taught the same thing. If the above is not hyperdispensationalism rant, I don't know what it is...

 

[starfield]

So you agree that all things (in creation) are lawful? In other words: There is no sin in nature. All things are good and fit for use by man, as was intended in genesis. But better to use them for your development and profit instead of being addicted to them.

When scripture says "all things are lawful" it's not saying it is okay for believers to indulge in sinful behaviour. Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid.

 

[p_rehbein]

FROM OP:

The popular opinion of Jesus's(christian) gospel is that the doctrine he preached while alive is the same doctrine that carried on after his death and resurrection. But this is actually very erroneous thinking, There are actually two different christs, two personalities, two values, two different eras.


That pretty well shows the complete lack of value of this OP........but, now, that may just be me.

 

[Hizikyah]

Mattithyah 24:35, "Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words will not pass away."

 

[John_S]

The popular opinion of Jesus's(christian) gospel is that the doctrine he preached while alive is the same doctrine that carried on after his death and resurrection. But this is actually very erroneous thinking, There are actually two different christs, two personalities, two values, two different eras.

First there was the christ who came to fulfill the law (of Moses). The man Jesus, born of a virgin, he was the personification of the law, had perfect understanding of the law, lived and ultimately died as the law, and by dying as the law has rendered the law abolished. This was the christ that ended in death, just as the law ends in death. This jesus preached the same message of "thou shalt not..", spoke in parables and did not give understanding of scripture just like the law was a shadow(without understanding) of things(true christianity) to come.

Then there was (and still is) the christ who was born(resurrected) through the death of the first christ. This man no longer preaches the law but gives us absolute personal freedom from this law, we are no longer bound by the old interpretations and commandments of this law. This christ grants us absolute liberty to use and enjoy the riches of knowledge and experience of all creation, this christ makes us realize that there is absolutely no sin in anything God has created and declared to be good and fit for use by man, whether they be food, drink, knowledge, music, clothes, sex, etc, all things are meant for use and learning and to profit from. To them that believe, they cannot sin, just like God himself cannot sin by taking pleasure in his creation. There is no longer "thou shalt not..." for all things are sanctified for use.

Apostle Paul clearly preached the gospel of the second christ and ask us to hence forth disregard the old christ, for his era(the era of the law of sin and death) is gone, having been abolished by his death and he declares that we no longer abide by his lifestyle when he says:

Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh(human tradition, the law); even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.(2 Corinthians 5:16).

So we no longer follow the Law's definition of right and wrong. Where the law had before (mis)judged and forbade us from indulging/using our natural, God-given desires, curiosities and sensualities. Thus, our intellectual, spiritual and sensual attributes are no longer sins but are in fact righteous attributes and expectations. The law is absolutely abolished.

Let me get this right, You are saying that the 10 Commandments don't apply anymore and no matter what we do, including rape or murder, we can never again sin.
If I got that right - that is Satanic and anyone who LIKES this thread is LIKING a Satanic doctrine.

 

[p_rehbein]

Let me get this right, You are saying that the 10 Commandments don't apply anymore and no matter what we do, including rape or murder, we can never again sin.
If I got that right - that is Satanic and anyone who LIKES this thread is LIKING a Satanic doctrine.

What? So, if I agree with your assessment, and "like" your comment, I'm "liking" satanic doctrine?

Well, ok, I wuz gunna likes your comment..........but NOT NOW!

 

[tdrew777]

The popular opinion of Jesus's(christian) gospel is that the doctrine he preached while alive is the same doctrine that carried on after his death and resurrection. But this is actually very erroneous thinking, There are actually two different christs, two personalities, two values, two different eras.

First there was the christ who came to fulfill the law (of Moses). The man Jesus, born of a virgin, he was the personification of the law, had perfect understanding of the law, lived and ultimately died as the law, and by dying as the law has rendered the law abolished. This was the christ that ended in death, just as the law ends in death. This jesus preached the same message of "thou shalt not..", spoke in parables and did not give understanding of scripture just like the law was a shadow(without understanding) of things(true christianity) to come.

Then there was (and still is) the christ who was born(resurrected) through the death of the first christ. This man no longer preaches the law but gives us absolute personal freedom from this law, we are no longer bound by the old interpretations and commandments of this law. This christ grants us absolute liberty to use and enjoy the riches of knowledge and experience of all creation, this christ makes us realize that there is absolutely no sin in anything God has created and declared to be good and fit for use by man, whether they be food, drink, knowledge, music, clothes, sex, etc, all things are meant for use and learning and to profit from. To them that believe, they cannot sin, just like God himself cannot sin by taking pleasure in his creation. There is no longer "thou shalt not..." for all things are sanctified for use.

Apostle Paul clearly preached the gospel of the second christ and ask us to hence forth disregard the old christ, for his era(the era of the law of sin and death) is gone, having been abolished by his death and he declares that we no longer abide by his lifestyle when he says:

Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh(human tradition, the law); even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.(2 Corinthians 5:16).

So we no longer follow the Law's definition of right and wrong. Where the law had before (mis)judged and forbade us from indulging/using our natural, God-given desires, curiosities and sensualities. Thus, our intellectual, spiritual and sensual attributes are no longer sins but are in fact righteous attributes and expectations. The law is absolutely abolished.

The Jesus who rose was the same Jesus who was crucified. He was not a different man. He is the same man, in a glorified body.
There is not the possibility of following the wrong Jesus if we are following Jesus of the bible. The same Jesus who is revealed in Genesis 3, in Isaiah 53, in the Law and the prophets.
Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself
The law is not abolished - not until heaven and earth pass away. The law is fulfilled. Fulfilled in Jesus, who is now resurrected. It has no further claim against us because of Jesus in us. The law never misjudges. It hits the mark.
What does this "two Jesus" nonsense do to your understanding of the Trinity? Which Jesus is God, the Son? Did he become God, the Son at the resurrection?

 

[Delija]

Jesus Christ is Godman!There were never 2 Christs,that is extremely heretical understanding!
Orthodoxy believes in the Incarnation, and believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God, and that Jesus is in fact, God in the flesh. He is the savior of all mankind, unique in all of history, and that only through a personal relationship with Him can we find God.
The Holy Spirit is God, just as Jesus Christ is God. Both lead us to the Father, the very God of the Old Testament. Yet there is one God. One in essence, yet three persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the Holy Trinity. All three are eternal, transcendent, and equal, yet the Father is pre- eminent. Orthodox believe the mystery of the Trinity is beyond the comprehension of finite human understanding.

 

[SpiritofFire]

So you agree that all things (in creation) are lawful? In other words: There is no sin in nature. All things are good and fit for use by man, as was intended in genesis. But better to use them for your development and profit instead of being addicted to them.

Yes I do. Again all things are lawful though not profitable. It is lawful for me to even to kill another, or else I wouldn't be able to do it. I want to live forever as well but this is UNLAWFUL as the flesh again profits nothing.

Now though I may choose to kill another, would this profit me? NO! I know the wrath this brings.

That is why we must be grounded in love. It is only they're that the law is established in our hearts.

I uphold all I believe to be right, but I judge not the man in what he believes is right for his life.

 

[SpiritofFire]

Let me get this right, You are saying that the 10 Commandments don't apply anymore and no matter what we do, including rape or murder, we can never again sin.
If I got that right - that is Satanic and anyone who LIKES this thread is LIKING a Satanic doctrine.

Those who are in love need not to worry about the 10. These only occur when we transgress that covenant of love.

 

[Delija]

As the 'uncaused' hypostasis [person], the Father was nonetheless always with his divine Word and Spirit, who themselves were also concrete and distinct modes of existence within the divine essence. Being Father necessarily implied a schesis with his Son and Spirit, without whom, fatherhood would be logically inconceivable. That is to say, the Father could never be perceived to be alone in his divinity as this would imply that He was not always 'father' but became so, which would be unacceptable in the Eastern Orthodox tradition. And so, there was never a time when God was without his Word and Spirit. Indeed, St Irenaeus (130-202AD) had noted that when God acts in the world, He always does so through his Word and Spirit, which he called the "two hands of God." Accordingly, the teaching of the Church on the Son of God is that He was begotten of the Father before all ages, and not created in time like all other created beings of the world. Being begotten of the Father [tovn ejk tou' Patrov" gennhqevnta prov pavntwn tw'n aijwvnwn] – as is said in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed – simply meant that the Son of God shared the same essence as God the Father and so was 'light from light, true God from true God.' And this eternal Son of God they identified with Jesus, whom they taught was God incarnate and born of the Virgin Mary. In countering the Arian controversy in the fourth century, which claimed that the Son of God was a creature – even though a most exalted one - born in time, the fathers of the Church taught that Jesus, as the Son of God was consubstantial [of one essence] with the Father [oJmoouvsion tw'/ Patriv]. In teaching that the Son of God was consubstantial with the Father, the Church not only refuted the famous Arian slogan which stated that “there was a time when He [i.e., the Son of God] was not”, but also made plain that that the 'being' [oujsiva] of the Son in relation to his Father was identical, one and the same; and hence entirely 'other' from that of the world's nature. On the contrary, the Son’s 'being', the fathers taught, belonged to the same substance or essence of God, whereas that of the world's belonged to the will of God and was created. As the eternal Son of God, Jesus Christ was divine with exactly the same divinity as God the Father, but, as One born on earth from the virgin Mary in Bethlehem, he was also fully human. Being of the same substance with the Father, God's only begotten Son, the man Jesus of Nazareth not only revealed the Father – "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (Jn 14:6) – but was also the saviour of the world. Being fully human, Jesus Christ identified totally with the human condition – except for sin of course – and therefore raised it back to God, uniting it with God. And so, the Church teaches that in the theanthropic person of Jesus Christ, the faithful of the Church not only 'behold' and 'see' God but are also saved by him as well.

 

[Isdaniel]

[SUP]What is sin ? Why do we ask For Forgiveness of sins ?

James 2

8 [/SUP]If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

The popular opinion of Jesus's(christian) gospel is that the doctrine he preached while alive is the same doctrine that carried on after his death and resurrection. But this is actually very erroneous thinking, There are actually two different christs, two personalities, two values, two different eras.

Hi there Okeyxyz, there is only one Christ, one Jesus, and he is the Lord Jesus Christ. Now I understand that the Gospel which Jesus Christ preached (Gospel f the Kingdom) on this earth is different than the one Paul preached( Gospel of the Death, Burial, and Resurrecton). I understand that there is a definite difference between those two Gospels.


But to say that there are two different Christs is not Scriptural. There is only One True Christ, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 8:6).


There are false Christs now (Matthew 24:24), and there are preachers out there who are 501c3 hirelings who are not preaching the Jesus of the Bible, but they are preaching another Jesus.


But again, there is only One Lord (Eph. 4:5), One Christ (1 Cor.8:6), not two.

First there was the christ who came to fulfill the law (of Moses). The man Jesus, born of a virgin, he was the personification of the law, had perfect understanding of the law, lived and ultimately died as the law, and by dying as the law has rendered the law abolished. This was the christ that ended in death, just as the law ends in death. This jesus preached the same message of "thou shalt not..", spoke in parables and did not give understanding of scripture just like the law was a shadow(without understanding) of things(true christianity) to come.

Well Jesus Christ our Lord came and fulfilled the Law. You see, He met all the requirements of the Law, which no man or woman could meet. And when Jesus was on this earth, during His 3 and a half years of ministry, the Gospel He preached was the Gospel of the Kingdom. He and His apostles were offering the Kingdom to the Jews.


The phrase "kingdom of heaven" occurs 32 times in the Authorized King James Holy Bible. And that phrase only occurs in the book of Matthew. It occurs no where else.


And the kingdom of heaven is referring to the physical city of Jerusalem. You say how? Here are the Scriptures to show that this is the case:


33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. - Matthew 5:33-35 (KJV)



11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. - Matthew 5:11-13 (King James Version)


Now before I began to study the Bible Dispensationally, I always thought that Matthew 5:12 was a reference to the Heaven that God dwelt in (third heaven). But what the Scriptures are referring to in this passage is the city of Jerusalem. It is Jerusalem that the Bible is referring to in Matthew 5:12.


Plus it just makes sense. Just think about it. Who is going to take Heaven (where God's Throne is at) away from God???


The only logical conclusion then regarding the above passage would have to be Jerusalem. Even now I have heard that if you go and visit Jerusalem, if you just drive through there, you can hear the gunshots firing and so forth.

Then there was (and still is) the christ who was born(resurrected) through the death of the first christ. This man no longer preaches the law but gives us absolute personal freedom from this law, we are no longer bound by the old interpretations and commandments of this law. This christ grants us absolute liberty to use and enjoy the riches of knowledge and experience of all creation, this christ makes us realize that there is absolutely no sin in anything God has created and declared to be good and fit for use by man, whether they be food, drink, knowledge, music, clothes, sex, etc, all things are meant for use and learning and to profit from. To them that believe, they cannot sin, just like God himself cannot sin by taking pleasure in his creation. There is no longer "thou shalt not..." for all things are sanctified for use.

While we are free from the curse of the law. And while we are under grace now and not under the law, that does not give us a license to go out and sin.


And yes there is a "thou shalt not" for Christians today. Here is proof:


7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. - Romans 13:7-10 (KJV)


So those Commandments given in Romans 13:9 by Paul, our apostle to the Gentiles, in his Pauline epistle, are in effect today for Christians to follow and obey. The Sabbath is not in Romans 13:9 because the Sabbath is a Sign for Israel (Ezekiel 20:19-20).


And by the way, those are not the only commandments for a Christian today, there are a lot of Commandments given in 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, and Ephesians alone!


So just because a true Born again Christian in the body of Christ is under grace today and not under the law, that does not mean that we do not have commandments that are for us to obey, because we do have commandments to follow and obey in this church age. And those commandments are mainly in the Pauline Epistles.

Apostle Paul clearly preached the gospel of the second christ and ask us to hence forth disregard the old christ, for his era(the era of the law of sin and death) is gone, having been abolished by his death and he declares that we no longer abide by his lifestyle when he says:

Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh(human tradition, the law); even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.(2 Corinthians 5:16).

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. - 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 (King James Bible)



Well I believe that what Paul was saying here is that him and the other apostles knew Christ after the flesh, in that it was when Jesus Christ was under the Law. Again, because when Jesus was on this earth, the Old Testament was still intact. The Mosaic Coveant. For instance:


3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them. - Matthew 8:3-4 (King James Bible)


Those verses are proof that the Old Mosaic Law was still in effect during Jesus Christ's Ministry while on this earth, prior to the Crucifixion.


You see, if today we preached the same Gospel that Jesus and His apostles preached (Gospel of the Kingdom) then we would be preaching another Gospel (Gal. 1:8).


So that is what I believe 2 Corinthians 5:16 teaching on.


The Gospel we preach today is the Gospel of the Death, Burial, and Resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:1-6).

So we no longer follow the Law's definition of right and wrong. Where the law had before (mis)judged and forbade us from indulging/using our natural, God-given desires, curiosities and sensualities. Thus, our intellectual, spiritual and sensual attributes are no longer sins but are in fact righteous attributes and expectations. The law is absolutely abolished.

Again, while the Law is abolished, that does NOT give us a license to sin. We are to still follow the Bible's Authority on what is Right and Wrong.


Sin is still sin my friend. And if you mess with sin while living on this earth, it will eventually lead to death (Rom. 6:23).


Now if you are saved, you do not have to worry about losing your salvation, because you are part of Christ's Body ( 1 Cor. 12:12 & Eph 5:30).


If a Christian could go to Hell, then that would also mean that a part of Christ's body could go also. And let me tell you something, Christ suffered ONCE (1 Pet. 3:18). And He is not going to suffer again.


18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: - 1 Peter 3:18 (KJV)


Still understand though, that if a Christian messes with sin, on this earth, if he is truly saved, then he will be chastened of the Lord. And that Christian will reap what he sows ( Gal. 6:7). And he will lose rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. And he may also suffer the loss of Millennial Inheritance as well.

 

[Isdaniel]

If Jesus fulfilled(payed the debt of) the law on our behalf, then why are you still trying to pay a debt that is already settled? Paul urges us to go about in our new found freedom, apart from the law. Unfortunately people still want to keep the law because they still use the same interpretations of the law of Moses to view the Law of Liberty of christ.

What is sin ? Why do we need the blood of Jesus ?

 

[chubbena]

Paul's teachings are like Yeshua's parables. To the casual listeners they meant one thing but to the one who questions come the truth.
Many thought Yeshua told parables to make His messages easier to understand. Oh well...

 

[p_rehbein]

This whole thing is bunk!

One Jesus............One Gospel...........

Paul did not teach in contradiction to Jesus.........that's bunk........the Holy Scripture does not contradict itself......that's unbeliever's bunk.......and complete lack of understanding.......

B-U-N-K......BUNK!