Which Jesus do you follow?

[Angela53510]

So nice to read a thread where all sides come together to denounce the preposterous nonsense of the OP!

This is a case of the truth of the ONE Jesus Christ bringing unity to the whole forum! Praise the Lord!

 

[christiangamer]

i dont know about yall but i follow the Jesus of the Bible.

 

[Richie_2uk]

The Jesus I follow is the one who died for me on the cross.

 

[ThomistColin]

There is only one Christ. He is Yeshua, the Son of God. One Christ. We have One Father, One Son, One Holy Spirit, three in one. It is the Godhead, and Christ is God. Let us not seek to divide the Man and Godhood of Christ, for He was, is, and ever shall be both.

 

[tdrew777]

Hi there Okeyxyz, there is only one Christ, one Jesus, and he is the Lord Jesus Christ. Now I understand that the Gospel which Jesus Christ preached (Gospel f the Kingdom) on this earth is different than the one Paul preached( Gospel of the Death, Burial, and Resurrecton). I understand that there is a definite difference between those two Gospels.

Not only did Paul not preach a different gospel than Jesus, he did not preach a different gospel than Moses. Moses preached the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus in the construction of the tabernacle, in the ordinances of sacrifice, in the promises given to the patriarchs. Jesus preached his own death, burial and resurrection in the gospel of the Kingdom. What gospel of the kingdom is there that does not include the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, Son of GOd? What ordinance of the Law is there that does not pull on your ear like a tutor and lead you to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, "I AM" from eternity?

 

[Bowman]

The popular opinion of Jesus's(christian) gospel is that the doctrine he preached while alive is the same doctrine that carried on after his death and resurrection. But this is actually very erroneous thinking, There are actually two different christs, two personalities, two values, two different eras.

First there was the christ who came to fulfill the law (of Moses). The man Jesus, born of a virgin, he was the personification of the law, had perfect understanding of the law, lived and ultimately died as the law, and by dying as the law has rendered the law abolished. This was the christ that ended in death, just as the law ends in death. This jesus preached the same message of "thou shalt not..", spoke in parables and did not give understanding of scripture just like the law was a shadow(without understanding) of things(true christianity) to come.

Then there was (and still is) the christ who was born(resurrected) through the death of the first christ. This man no longer preaches the law but gives us absolute personal freedom from this law, we are no longer bound by the old interpretations and commandments of this law. This christ grants us absolute liberty to use and enjoy the riches of knowledge and experience of all creation, this christ makes us realize that there is absolutely no sin in anything God has created and declared to be good and fit for use by man, whether they be food, drink, knowledge, music, clothes, sex, etc, all things are meant for use and learning and to profit from. To them that believe, they cannot sin, just like God himself cannot sin by taking pleasure in his creation. There is no longer "thou shalt not..." for all things are sanctified for use.

Apostle Paul clearly preached the gospel of the second christ and ask us to hence forth disregard the old christ, for his era(the era of the law of sin and death) is gone, having been abolished by his death and he declares that we no longer abide by his lifestyle when he says:

Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh(human tradition, the law); even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.(2 Corinthians 5:16).

So we no longer follow the Law's definition of right and wrong. Where the law had before (mis)judged and forbade us from indulging/using our natural, God-given desires, curiosities and sensualities. Thus, our intellectual, spiritual and sensual attributes are no longer sins but are in fact righteous attributes and expectations. The law is absolutely abolished.

What about the Jesus that appeared in the OT?

 

[Nick01]

If Jesus fulfilled(payed the debt of) the law on our behalf, then why are you still trying to pay a debt that is already settled? Paul urges us to go about in our new found freedom, apart from the law. Unfortunately people still want to keep the law because they still use the same interpretations of the law of Moses to view the Law of Liberty of christ.

Maybe we want to do good stuff because Jesus is good, and good things are good? Instead of trying to make God happy with us? Do you think Jesus just did good things because his father told him to, or was it also because they were good.

You keep pitting Paul against Jesus, and PAul against right living. You're right, Jesus and Paul preach a freedom from the law, but, and I quote...

For you were called to be free, brothers; only don’t use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but serve one another through love. For the entire law is fulfilled in one statement: Love your neighbor as yourself. But if you bite and devour one another, watch out, or you will be consumed by one another.
I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don’t do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife,jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit. We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

I don't really know how Paul could be any clearer. Patently, to not be under the law and to have freedom from the Law is not to have freedom to do whatever you like. You are under the Spirit, and the Spirit wills what is against the flesh. In other words, there is still such a thing as right behaviour and wrong behaviour, not because of what the Law commands, but because of what the Spirit desires.

 

[Tintin]

The popular opinion of Jesus's(christian) gospel is that the doctrine he preached while alive is the same doctrine that carried on after his death and resurrection. But this is actually very erroneous thinking, There are actually two different christs, two personalities, two values, two different eras.

First there was the christ who came to fulfill the law (of Moses). The man Jesus, born of a virgin, he was the personification of the law, had perfect understanding of the law, lived and ultimately died as the law, and by dying as the law has rendered the law abolished. This was the christ that ended in death, just as the law ends in death. This jesus preached the same message of "thou shalt not..", spoke in parables and did not give understanding of scripture just like the law was a shadow(without understanding) of things(true christianity) to come.

Then there was (and still is) the christ who was born(resurrected) through the death of the first christ. This man no longer preaches the law but gives us absolute personal freedom from this law, we are no longer bound by the old interpretations and commandments of this law. This christ grants us absolute liberty to use and enjoy the riches of knowledge and experience of all creation, this christ makes us realize that there is absolutely no sin in anything God has created and declared to be good and fit for use by man, whether they be food, drink, knowledge, music, clothes, sex, etc, all things are meant for use and learning and to profit from. To them that believe, they cannot sin, just like God himself cannot sin by taking pleasure in his creation. There is no longer "thou shalt not..." for all things are sanctified for use.

Apostle Paul clearly preached the gospel of the second christ and ask us to hence forth disregard the old christ, for his era(the era of the law of sin and death) is gone, having been abolished by his death and he declares that we no longer abide by his lifestyle when he says:

Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh(human tradition, the law); even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.(2 Corinthians 5:16).

So we no longer follow the Law's definition of right and wrong. Where the law had before (mis)judged and forbade us from indulging/using our natural, God-given desires, curiosities and sensualities. Thus, our intellectual, spiritual and sensual attributes are no longer sins but are in fact righteous attributes and expectations. The law is absolutely abolished.

I know some parts of the Bible are difficult to read and understand but the Gospels and the Letters aren't those. The Bible makes it quite clear, you've just made up your own nonsense.

 

[okeyxyz]

This is the exact doctrine that will allow the mystery of iniquity come to fulness...The exact thing spoken against in all the Scriptures is now gladly accepted and others are spoken evil of for not loving satans lie...

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your hneighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"
the word Law is: 3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law Original Word: νόμος, ου,
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: nomos Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os) Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law
Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.

Mattithyah 24:12-13, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold. But he who endures until the end, the same will be saved."

Mattithyah 7:21, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 ἀνομία anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Mattithyah 24:35, "Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words will not pass away."

I think this mystery of iniquity goes beyong the faulty "OT God NT God" falsehood, I think it is more like "OT God, 2 NT Gods and now a twisted version of Paul's writings are your God."

If you trash the words of the Messiah surely one wont listen to the Father...but here is a ENDTIME prophecy, He knows the END from the BEGINNING.

Isayah 24:1-6, "Behold, Yahweh makes the earth empty and makes it waste, perverts the face of it and scatters abroad its inhabitants; And it will be: as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his owner; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with him who takes usury, so with him who gives usury to him: The land will be utterly emptied and utterly plundered, for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away, the world mourns and fades away, and the haughty people of the earth languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants of it, because they have transgressed the Laws, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant. Because of this, the curse has devoured the earth, and they who dwell therein are desolate; therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."

The Messiah supports this truth also

Mattithyah 24:21-22, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

Mattithyah 24:12-13, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold. But he who endures until the end, the same will be saved."

The problem with the law is that it is not the true representation of God's value system, it is a shadow (Colossians 2:17, Hebrews 10:1), thus it's purpose was not to reveal God, rather it was meant to hide God. This was why Jesus spoke in parables instead of plain speak like the apostles did. True, the law says: "Thou shalt not kill, not idolate, not commit adultery, etc" but it failed to define what these acts truly meant, hence we(the Israelites) took the law with our human understandings and traditional interpretations. In so doing, the law has been formed in image (traditions/interpretations) of man instead of that of God. The law says: "You shall have no other god before me..", but it did not reveal the true God, leaving us(Israel) to guess with our false understanding. It says: "Do not commit adultery/fornicate.." and we have carried on with the understanding that fornication is sex without marriage. It says: "Do not kill.." and we interpret killing as physically killing another person, etc

So Paul says: the ideals of the law is good, it becomes sinful when the needed understanding does not come with it:

14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate...(1 Corinthians 7:14-15)

So this law was designed to mislead us, therefore the necessity for christ to come and abolish it by being the personification of the law, living and dying as the law(fulfilling it) and therefore putting the law to death. If the law was truly of God, then there'd be no need for Christ's coming.

Jesus spoke a lot of truth but hid them in parables because it was still the era of the law and would be "illegal" for him to reveal truth, therefore making it impossible to put the law to death if he goes about explicitly breaking/speaking-against the same law he was meant to fulfill/personify. So he says:

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. (John 14:26)

Jesus gives another hint that the law is false when a man comes up to him and call him "Good master...", Jesus replies "Why do you call me good? There is none good but God..." (Mark 18:10). Clearly this man evaluates Jesus based on the law and finds him to be good just as everybody today still evaluates same Jesus to be good and the ideal model of goodness to imitate. But Jesus, knowing God's values hints to us here that no righteousness based on the law is good in the sight of God, He surreptitiously distinguishes between God and the law. Paul goes on to explicitly reject this model of Christ based on the law when he declares:

16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh(human traditions, the law); even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come (2 Corinthians 5:16-17)

 

[savedandhopeful]

I follow the one that saved me

 

[okeyxyz]

There is one Christ and one gospel, and Paul and Christ taught the same thing. If the above is not hyperdispensationalism rant, I don't know what it is...

There was the Jesus of the Law(pre-crucifixion) and the was the Jesus of Grace(post-crucifixion). Same physical entity, different messages/values/expectations.

Yeah, Jesus and Paul indeed preached the same doctrine, but Jesus preached them in parables(hidden) while Paul revealed them in plain speak. The law is actually the Gospel in hidden form (symbols, shadows, parables)

 

[Hizikyah]

There was the Jesus of the Law(pre-crucifixion) and the was the Jesus of Grace(post-crucifixion). Same physical entity, different messages/values/expectations.

Yeah, Jesus and Paul indeed preached the same doctrine, but Jesus preached them in parables(hidden) while Paul revealed them in plain speak. The law is actually the Gospel in hidden form (symbols, shadows, parables)

pre Sacrifice:

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 24:35, "Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words will not pass away."

now lets see what ost Sacrifice" Messiah has to say:

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

same Messiah.

 

[okeyxyz]

When scripture says "all things are lawful" it's not saying it is okay for believers to indulge in sinful behaviour. Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid.

Paul says: All things are lawful, in other words: there is nothing sinful in all that God has created

But all things are not expedient: Therefore use all things wisely so that you control and profit from them, instead of using to your own detriment/failures.

And you(most people) misunderstand the verse: "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound??" (Romans 6:1)
Paul answers this by explaining that we are already dead to sin(the law) by believing that we died with christ, therefore sin has no inflluence over us because through the death of christ, we left the sin-domain, we left the sin-country and now living in the grace-country, therefore we have no requirement of the law and no conscience of sin and the law should not continue to define our rights and wrongs (Romans 6:1-4).

It's like a man who used to live in America and a citizen, then renounced his American citizenship to take up a european citizenship and residency, you cannot continue to require him to keep american laws and pay American taxes. He is now under contract with Europe, therefore America cannot define his contract terms and conditions.

 

[okeyxyz]

FROM OP:

The popular opinion of Jesus's(christian) gospel is that the doctrine he preached while alive is the same doctrine that carried on after his death and resurrection. But this is actually very erroneous thinking, There are actually two different christs, two personalities, two values, two different eras.


That pretty well shows the complete lack of value of this OP........but, now, that may just be me.

Trust me! It's all you

 

[okeyxyz]

Mattithyah 24:35, "Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words will not pass away."

True, but the Law of Moses is not the word of God. I know most people understand it to be, but that doesn't make it true. Jesus was speaking about the law that will be revealed/understood in the future, not the one subsisting at the time he made these declarations.

 

[okeyxyz]

Let me get this right, You are saying that the 10 Commandments don't apply anymore and no matter what we do, including rape or murder, we can never again sin.
If I got that right - that is Satanic and anyone who LIKES this thread is LIKING a Satanic doctrine.

The law on the face value sounds good, but nobody understood it then. True it says worship God and none other but it does not tell who/what this God is. It actually hides God. So how can you possibly worship a God you don't understand?? let alone see??

It says: Don not kill and we thought it meant killing another person. While it is good not to kill another human but that is not the true interpretation of that command. It's true message is: Do not subject yourself to the law because it is the law which kills, it is the law of sin and death.

It says: You shall not fornicate(adultery being a subset of fornication). But sex without marriage is fornication according to the law, not according to God/grace. The real fornication is simply unlawful(without consent/love) or unnatural sex(homosexuality, bestiality, etc)

These and more are the problems with the law: It's definitions are wrong, being according to human traditions, so christ came in the same manner of these traditions so that his death would be the death of the law.

 

[okeyxyz]

What is sin ? Why do we need the blood of Jesus ?

According to the gospel of grace, you become a sinner when you subject yourself to be ruled by the law of Moses. Jesus became sin by personifying the law of Moses, thus the need for him to die and hence putting the law to death.

 

[okeyxyz]

Hi there Okeyxyz, there is only one Christ, one Jesus, and he is the Lord Jesus Christ. Now I understand that the Gospel which Jesus Christ preached (Gospel f the Kingdom) on this earth is different than the one Paul preached( Gospel of the Death, Burial, and Resurrecton). I understand that there is a definite difference between those two Gospels.

Not only did Paul not preach a different gospel than Jesus, he did not preach a different gospel than Moses. Moses preached the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus in the construction of the tabernacle, in the ordinances of sacrifice, in the promises given to the patriarchs. Jesus preached his own death, burial and resurrection in the gospel of the Kingdom. What gospel of the kingdom is there that does not include the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, Son of GOd? What ordinance of the Law is there that does not pull on your ear like a tutor and lead you to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, "I AM" from eternity?

I agree! The law teaches death, burial and resurrection of Christ, but did the people to whom this law was given understand what it taught?? Definitely Not!! The understanding of everything encoded in the law came after christ's death and resurrection, in the apostolic era.

 

[okeyxyz]

What about the Jesus that appeared in the OT?

Jesus could be eating dinner with you right now but if you don't understand his gospel, then you cannot recognize him and his presence with you is of no use as far as grace-gospel is concerned. The same way they did not understand/recognize christ when he came to die, nor did they recognize Elijah when he came as John the Baptist..

 

[starfield]

There was the Jesus of the Law(pre-crucifixion) and the was the Jesus of Grace(post-crucifixion). Same physical entity, different messages/values/expectations.

Actually, Jesus revealed grace throughout His ministry. He demonstrated grace to the adulterous woman. John 1:17 says "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ".