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M
What answer is that? I don’t recall answering any questions from you recently. Nor do I recall you asking me a question. Even if you did why would I bother answering, if the definitions the unchanging God/Word provides aren’t good enough for you? There really isn’t any point in continuing, if you don't accept the definitions the unchanging God/Word provides.
So was the question about the two witnesses, but apparently the definitions the unchanging God/Word provides in His inspired Word wasn’t good enough for you. All I can do is show what the unchanging God/Word says.So why continue, if the unchanging God/Word isn’t good enough for you?
Apparently you did not read post #52 where I said “Prophecy is like a puzzle. If we correctly place the pieces of the puzzle we will see the picture. God uses figurative language to describe literal events. The figurative language is the puzzle pieces. If we rightly divide the word of truth we will find the definitions of figurative language in God’s Word and install them in the correct locations enabling us to see the picture.” So clearly we must use all of scripture if we want to see the picture. Yes all Scripture is required to see the big picture and as Rev11 shows we are not taken pretruib, but after the trib. (but that’s another subject)
So long as you continue to ignore the definitions the unchanging God/Word provides you will most likely remain in error. Doctrines built in the absence of sound hermeneutic principles rarely (if ever) produce good fruit.
Search all you want, but if your search does not employ sound hermeneutic principles don’t be surprised if your results are lacking.
So was the question about the two witnesses, but apparently the definitions the unchanging God/Word provides in His inspired Word wasn’t good enough for you. All I can do is show what the unchanging God/Word says.So why continue, if the unchanging God/Word isn’t good enough for you?
Apparently you did not read post #52 where I said “Prophecy is like a puzzle. If we correctly place the pieces of the puzzle we will see the picture. God uses figurative language to describe literal events. The figurative language is the puzzle pieces. If we rightly divide the word of truth we will find the definitions of figurative language in God’s Word and install them in the correct locations enabling us to see the picture.” So clearly we must use all of scripture if we want to see the picture. Yes all Scripture is required to see the big picture and as Rev11 shows we are not taken pretruib, but after the trib. (but that’s another subject)
So long as you continue to ignore the definitions the unchanging God/Word provides you will most likely remain in error. Doctrines built in the absence of sound hermeneutic principles rarely (if ever) produce good fruit.
Search all you want, but if your search does not employ sound hermeneutic principles don’t be surprised if your results are lacking.
M
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Mar 7:13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must
first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and
restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but
have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of
them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
Was Christ wrong when He said this had been fulfilled or could it be “the holy traditions” (as you call them) are in error?
If the inspired Word of God tells us the olive trees are Jews and Christians and that candlesticks are churches (remember churches are people, not buildings) Why shouldn’t we use the definition’s the unchanging God/Word provides? Aren’t we to base our belief on what Scripture says? Or should we base it on the traditions of men?
P
Thanks for answering gotime.
I understand that Jesus is the word, all the word.
But if one of the two witnesses is a Jew of the Jewish religion Judaism then how does he preach repent and be saved.
Also there is no reason or need for the Jewish people to be saved if they don’t need to confess Jesus with their mouths.
But there is a way your theory could work as far as I can see.
If the two end time witnesses are of the OT and the NT, is if they go forth in spirit and power of Elijah. Thus making them of the OT and the NT. I would think both have to be Christians but if they or one of them go forth in spirit and power of Elijah that makes them of the OT and the NT.
Me, I don’t know who they are, but I cannot see a Jew of the Jewish religion Judaism getting anyone to repent and be saved.
Rom11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
1John2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Love in Jesus from peter
I understand that Jesus is the word, all the word.
But if one of the two witnesses is a Jew of the Jewish religion Judaism then how does he preach repent and be saved.
Also there is no reason or need for the Jewish people to be saved if they don’t need to confess Jesus with their mouths.
But there is a way your theory could work as far as I can see.
If the two end time witnesses are of the OT and the NT, is if they go forth in spirit and power of Elijah. Thus making them of the OT and the NT. I would think both have to be Christians but if they or one of them go forth in spirit and power of Elijah that makes them of the OT and the NT.
Me, I don’t know who they are, but I cannot see a Jew of the Jewish religion Judaism getting anyone to repent and be saved.
Rom11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
1John2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Love in Jesus from peter
ok sorry I must not be making my view clear. i believe that the two witnesses are the Bible. New and Old testament. not people but words written be men who are led by the Spirit of God.
The New and old testament are gods witnesses. who has born more witness than these?
hope that clears things up.
blessings
The New and old testament are gods witnesses. who has born more witness than these?
hope that clears things up.
blessings
P
Thanks for clearing that up gotime it makes so much more sense now.
I had already wrote this statement before you answered, so I just thought I would put it in any way for others sakes
If Jesus is the vine and WE are grafted in, grafted in to Jesus the word, then that would make US of the OT too. For example when James was speaking to the church he said-
James Chapter 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Love speaking to you gotime.
God bless you
I had already wrote this statement before you answered, so I just thought I would put it in any way for others sakes
If Jesus is the vine and WE are grafted in, grafted in to Jesus the word, then that would make US of the OT too. For example when James was speaking to the church he said-
James Chapter 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Love speaking to you gotime.
God bless you
M
How does the bible(as two witnesses) fulfill these verses?
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
How can a Bible be killed? Did or will Bibles lie in the streets of Jerusalem?
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
How does the bible torment those who don’t read it? Do you think those who dwell upon the earth will make merry and send gift to each other if the Bible lies in the streets of Jerusalem?
Remember the events may be described in figurative or symbolic language but there will be a literal fulfillment.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
How can a Bible be killed? Did or will Bibles lie in the streets of Jerusalem?
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
How does the bible torment those who don’t read it? Do you think those who dwell upon the earth will make merry and send gift to each other if the Bible lies in the streets of Jerusalem?
Remember the events may be described in figurative or symbolic language but there will be a literal fulfillment.
M
If you want someone in particular to answer your questions, you might be better served to ask them directly instead of saying ”to all who believe”. Then claiming you are disappointed in that person’s answer when that person never answered.
I chose not to answer the question you posed to “all who have the opinion it is the chuch and Israel” because I can’t answer for those people. If you are under the mistaken impression that I believe that is the case you have either misunderstood my view or have a misconception about what I believe (could it be that you have a misconception about who you think I believe the Jewish and Christian people are in this case?).
The subject of this thread is, the two witnesses, the location Jerusalem. My reason for participating in this thread is for the purpose of determining who the two witnesses described as olive trees and candlesticks are? What do these two terms mean and who are they referring to? I take the time to gain an understanding of other view’s so that the questions I ask are relevant to the discussion at hand and don’t lead off on rabbit trails that require them to clear up misconceptions (like thinking because someone says Jewish and Christian people in this case means the whole church or the whole house of Israel) about their view.
On the other hand if you feel it is or isn’t the Jewish or Christian people in Jerusalem (not the whole church or the whole house of Israel, big difference) during the time period in question then please just make your point.
If you feel that the fact Scripture says “Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;” sheds light on the definition of the terms candlesticks and olive trees then by all means state your case, but if not why side track the thread discussing that issue here.
"God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not dependent on how artfully he can defend his doctrines, but on his willingness to seek out and follow the truth." - Ellis Skolfield.
The object of this thread is not to defend or promote an overall view but identify the two witnesses. So let’s not sidetrack the issue by questions designed to defend a doctrine (IMO it really doesn’t help the pretrib argument anyway, but that’s another subject) but instead search diligently for truth one precept at a time. Then build precept upon precept, line upon line, until we arrive at the truth making our doctrines Scripturally sound..
If you are interested in learning more about my views on the whole subject of prophecy (and not just the identity of the two witnesses) so that we could carry on an intelligent conversation based on what the view actually is (and not misconceptions) then why don’t you take a little time and read and gain an understanding about my view in it’s entirety HERE
That way we don’t sidetrack the thread from the issue of who the two witnesses are. If after you have taken the time to both read and understand my view you have questions feel free to start a thread about the book and ask the questions there. (to carry on an intelligent productive discussion requires understanding both views, it doesn’t require that we be in agreement) None of us have all the answers so I can’t guarantee I’ll have the answer for every question you have. But I am willing to discuss it in an intelligent manner with those who take the time to read and understand the view in its entirety , regardless of whether they agree or not. But for now, in this thread, lets stick to the subject at hand and that is what are candlesticks and olive trees.
So in an effort to get back to the original topic allow me to pose this question. If the unchanging God/Word tells us the definition for candlesticks is churches (remember churches are people not buildings) and the unchanging Gord/Word gives the definition of Olive trees as Jews and Christians. Then why shouldn’t we believe olive trees and candlesticks in this case are the Jewish and Christian people in Jerusalem during the 1260 days? Did the unchanging God/Word change?
.
I chose not to answer the question you posed to “all who have the opinion it is the chuch and Israel” because I can’t answer for those people. If you are under the mistaken impression that I believe that is the case you have either misunderstood my view or have a misconception about what I believe (could it be that you have a misconception about who you think I believe the Jewish and Christian people are in this case?).
The subject of this thread is, the two witnesses, the location Jerusalem. My reason for participating in this thread is for the purpose of determining who the two witnesses described as olive trees and candlesticks are? What do these two terms mean and who are they referring to? I take the time to gain an understanding of other view’s so that the questions I ask are relevant to the discussion at hand and don’t lead off on rabbit trails that require them to clear up misconceptions (like thinking because someone says Jewish and Christian people in this case means the whole church or the whole house of Israel) about their view.
On the other hand if you feel it is or isn’t the Jewish or Christian people in Jerusalem (not the whole church or the whole house of Israel, big difference) during the time period in question then please just make your point.
If you feel that the fact Scripture says “Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;” sheds light on the definition of the terms candlesticks and olive trees then by all means state your case, but if not why side track the thread discussing that issue here.
"God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not dependent on how artfully he can defend his doctrines, but on his willingness to seek out and follow the truth." - Ellis Skolfield.
The object of this thread is not to defend or promote an overall view but identify the two witnesses. So let’s not sidetrack the issue by questions designed to defend a doctrine (IMO it really doesn’t help the pretrib argument anyway, but that’s another subject) but instead search diligently for truth one precept at a time. Then build precept upon precept, line upon line, until we arrive at the truth making our doctrines Scripturally sound..
If you are interested in learning more about my views on the whole subject of prophecy (and not just the identity of the two witnesses) so that we could carry on an intelligent conversation based on what the view actually is (and not misconceptions) then why don’t you take a little time and read and gain an understanding about my view in it’s entirety HERE
That way we don’t sidetrack the thread from the issue of who the two witnesses are. If after you have taken the time to both read and understand my view you have questions feel free to start a thread about the book and ask the questions there. (to carry on an intelligent productive discussion requires understanding both views, it doesn’t require that we be in agreement) None of us have all the answers so I can’t guarantee I’ll have the answer for every question you have. But I am willing to discuss it in an intelligent manner with those who take the time to read and understand the view in its entirety , regardless of whether they agree or not. But for now, in this thread, lets stick to the subject at hand and that is what are candlesticks and olive trees.
So in an effort to get back to the original topic allow me to pose this question. If the unchanging God/Word tells us the definition for candlesticks is churches (remember churches are people not buildings) and the unchanging Gord/Word gives the definition of Olive trees as Jews and Christians. Then why shouldn’t we believe olive trees and candlesticks in this case are the Jewish and Christian people in Jerusalem during the 1260 days? Did the unchanging God/Word change?
.
I’d be interested in seeing this literal fulfillment so that we can compare it to scripture and see if, in fact this has been fulfilled. If it has then we should be able to see who the two witnesses are. So far the best explanation I have seen in this thread is based on God’s Word telling us olive trees are Jews and Christians and candlesticks are churches.
In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316
In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316
I was studying the Temple and God has incorporated everything into the Temple. I showed that on an earlier post. I left out the two columns of Boaz and Joachim. The columns had lily’s ( wisdom ) and Pomegranates ( law ) on them. The right column is Joachim ( Justice ) and the left is Boaz ( mercy ). There is nothing else in the temple that looks like it could be talking about the two witnesses. The two Columns also had basins at the top and are thought to have been two giant torches. The two columns are on Solomon’s porch. John 10:23-25 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. On Soloman’s porch he is ask to give witness of who he is. The meaning of the two columns are, Justice He shall establish, Mercy In it is strength. When I think of the meaning of the two columns I think of Daniel 5:25-27 25 And this is the writing that was written , MENE , MENE , TEKEL , UPHARSIN . 26This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE ; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it. 27TEKEL ; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
My final remark on this. We need to leave scripture alone to what it says and stop making assumptions that something is symbolic, or its the church and jews or whatever else someone comes up with that is not backed by scripture. Rev. makes clear that the two witnesses are two people who speak judgement against the sin of the world, they are given power to do phenominal things just as Moses was and others. It makes clear that they are killed and are raised up 3.5 days later. It doens't hint in anyway that they are thousands of people as some would lead others to believe. YHVH's word is clear and easy to understand, it is everyone else who makes it complicated. This hasn't been fufilled yet, and no one can show scripture that says it has. It's not pillars, they are not trees (trees were used as symbol to describe them as YHVH's and scripture does show that) They could be two women, or two men, or man and a woman or whatever. It says two witnesses, it's simple, it's clear and if someone has a hard time wrapping their mind around something so simple, I can only suggest you pray and ask YHVH to show you. YHVH's word is easy to see and understand for those who are seeking HIS truth in HIS word and not OUR truth in HIS word. Shabbat Shalom to all.
M
Rev 1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Does God’s inspired word lie when it tells us candlesticks are churches? Never!
Romans 11:17 And if some of the (Jewish) branches be broken off, and thou (the Gentiles that believed IE Christians), being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree.
Romans 11:24 For if thou (the Gentiles that believed IE Christians) wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree (the Jews): how much more shall these (the Jews), which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Does God’s inspired word lie when it tells us that olive trees are Jews and Christians? Never!
If not then why shouldn’t we believe the olive trees and candlesticks represent the Jewish and the Christian churches (people)? Why jump through hoops to make Scripture fit a doctrine? Wouldn’t we be better served to adjust our doctrines to fit Scripture?
Does God’s inspired word lie when it tells us candlesticks are churches? Never!
Romans 11:17 And if some of the (Jewish) branches be broken off, and thou (the Gentiles that believed IE Christians), being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree.
Romans 11:24 For if thou (the Gentiles that believed IE Christians) wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree (the Jews): how much more shall these (the Jews), which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Does God’s inspired word lie when it tells us that olive trees are Jews and Christians? Never!
If not then why shouldn’t we believe the olive trees and candlesticks represent the Jewish and the Christian churches (people)? Why jump through hoops to make Scripture fit a doctrine? Wouldn’t we be better served to adjust our doctrines to fit Scripture?
I do know it is only 2 people I was only saying that in the temple they are shown by the 2 candle pillars, not that they are pillars. They are shown as people and that is what they are. Look at the temple everything in it has to do with his plan for us . Do you think he you put in the tribes, first fruits, disciples and not put in the two witnesses.