Who believes that all who die saved go to heaven at death?

[shroom2]

SHROOM2.

YOU SAId: How do you handle these, Tom?

1 Tim 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I mean seriously, what do you do with them?

SHROOM those are all FACTS of scripture..very good posting here. TOM has also posted some FACTS as well, so the truth has to be somewhere in the middle which is totally ok. God prepares the harvest as Tom says, but as you say we don't know who that is, so we must preach to everyone as the Lord desires all to be saved. As we preach to All (as you say) ..the Lord adds to the Church (as Tom says) Anyway I think you both have represented the FACTS very well with very little opinion added.

Hi IMINJC,

A "middle of the road" truth? I don't think so....

The FACT (as you put it) is that God wants all men to be saved. Others here promote that He will only save whom He wills. Either what they say is wrong, or the bible contradicts itself.

The truth is that God wants all men to be saved, and that He is not willing that any should perish, and has made salvation available to anyone who will believe. But He also gave man free will, and He will not override it. Not all will choose salvation.

 

[shroom2]

Why did they try to stone Him then??? You can't avoid no matter how you try. You never answered how Jeus could be the Alpha and Omega in Revelation, or the verses in John 1:1 (although I know you will come up with something silly), the same words God used of Himself in the Old Testament.
No shroom, you are deceived and deceiving.
Watch out for him, he is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Tom

No matter how many times you repeat your misunderstandings, they will never be true.

I wish I could help you.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Mormons, JWs and muslims all believe that Jesus was created and isn't God, so I don't see where the comparison falls apart. You have been shown countless times the verses that prove Christ's divinity and yet you refuse to believe it. To me that makes you the same as the other religions I've mentioned. You say Jesus is your Savior, but it's not the Jesus of the Bible, the Great "I AM" that Jesus claimed to be, and for which the scribes took up stones to stone Him. Even they knew who He claimed Himself to be.
Take heed to this man, He will say Jesus is the Son of God, but he will never elaborate on it. And if you didn't know, it would appear that He is a Biblical Christian. He is hardened in this most serious sin and needs prayer. But don't be lead astray by him.
God bless.

Tom

My Father which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. . . . . Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" Wouldn't this have been the perfect place to state that he was indeed, God the Father. He confesses only to being the Son of God. The disciples confessed that he was the Son of God. When Jesus asked Peter who he was - if they thought he was God - why didn't he answer - "Thou art the almighty God" - instead he answered "Thou art Christ the Son of the living God". They knew exactly who he was.

 

[Tombo]

No matter how many times you repeat your misunderstandings, they will never be true.

I wish I could help you.

So you can't answer why they wanted to stone Jesus for saying "before Abraham was, I AM"?
I didn't think you would.
I'll keep you in my prayers, shroom.

Tom

 

[cfultz3]

My Father which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. . . . . Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" Wouldn't this have been the perfect place to state that he was indeed, God the Father. He confesses only to being the Son of God. The disciples confessed that he was the Son of God. When Jesus asked Peter who he was - if they thought he was God - why didn't he answer - "Thou art the almighty God" - instead he answered "Thou art Christ the Son of the living God". They knew exactly who he was.

Tom is not saying that Jesus is God the Father, but that Jesus is God the Word. Thomas, and as far as that goes, Tom also said, "My Lord and my God". (John 20:28) We understand that there are different administration at the moment, but it is still one Lord. (1Cor 12:5) Let us also remember, when Stephen was being stoned to death and calling upon God, he said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit". (Act 7:59) And when a man returns to the earth as he was, then the spirit shall return to God who gave it. (Ecc 12:7)

 

[Tombo]

Tom is not saying that Jesus is God the Father, but that Jesus is God the Word. Thomas, and as far as that goes, Tom also said, "My Lord and my God". (John 20:28) We understand that there are different administration at the moment, but it is still one Lord. (1Cor 12:5) Let us also remember, when Stephen was being stoned to death and calling upon God, he said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit". (Act 7:59) And when a man returns to the earth as he was, then the spirit shall return to God who gave it. (Ecc 12:7)

Absolutely. The Bible teaches that there are three distinct persons in the Godhead; The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Son isn't the Father, the Spirit isn't the Son, etc. They are of the same essence but three in persons. Not three Gods, but one God in three persons.
A mystery to be sure, but Biblical truth nonetheless.
God bless.

Tom

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Absolutely. The Bible teaches that there are three distinct persons in the Godhead; The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Son isn't the Father, the Spirit isn't the Son, etc. They are of the same essence but three in persons. Not three Gods, but one God in three persons.
A mystery to be sure, but Biblical truth nonetheless.
God bless.

Tom

Then why in your arguments is this verse always used:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.

If God is the Father and God is the Son then the Father would also have to be the Son seeing as they are both God.

 

[Tombo]

Then why in your arguments is this verse always used:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.

If God is the Father and God is the Son then the Father would also have to be the Son seeing as they are both God.

It is used because they have the same attributes. You see in the New Testament of Jesus having authority over nature, sickness, etc. He has the same authority to forgive sins. He could even create the finest wine from water. John 1:1 shows that Jesus, the Word, is God. The Spirit is also spoken of in terms of omniscience, of being able to be grieved, etc.
I wish you would look up R.C. Sproul's lectures on the Trinty on youtube. There are six lectures of only about 25 mins. in length each.
Even if you don't believe everything he says, just watch the all six and then get back to me.
God bless.

Tom

 

[peacefulbeliever]

It is used because they have the same attributes. You see in the New Testament of Jesus having authority over nature, sickness, etc. He has the same authority to forgive sins. He could even create the finest wine from water. John 1:1 shows that Jesus, the Word, is God. The Spirit is also spoken of in terms of omniscience, of being able to be grieved, etc.
I wish you would look up R.C. Sproul's lectures on the Trinty on youtube. There are six lectures of only about 25 mins. in length each.
Even if you don't believe everything he says, just watch the all six and then get back to me.
God bless.

Tom

I agree that they have the same attributes or characteristics. Jesus Christ was given authority over things in his earthly ministry by his Father, God. He was given the authority to forgive sins, heal the sick, etc. from his Father, God. The words (logos) he spoke, the works he did the Father gave him to do. God is the Father, Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, the Holy Spirit is God and he gives us what He is through the gift of holy spirit, the new birth.

Thanks Tom concerning R.C. Sproul's lectures on the Trinity but I believe I will just stick with what God said about His Son and what Jesus Christ says about his Father.

God bless.

 

[IMINJC]

TOMBO.


YOU SAID: Absolutely. The Bible teaches that there are three distinct persons in the Godhead; The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Son isn't the Father, the Spirit isn't the Son, etc. They are of the same essence but three in persons. Not three Gods, but one God in three persons.
A mystery to be sure, but Biblical truth nonetheless.
God bless.

Very good Tom..Keep up the good work.

 

[IMINJC]

SHROOM2.


YOU SAID: The truth is that God wants all men to be saved, and that He is not willing that any should perish, and has made salvation available to anyone who will believe. But He also gave man free will, and He will not override it. Not all will choose salvation.

Your absolutely right..I have to say Amen because its all directly from the Word with no opinion added, but one word of advice..never allow your frustration in a debate to get you to deny obvious truth. Abandoning truth..any kind of truth is like leaving a powerful weapon laying on the battle field. When you do that, your enemy (Satan) will pick it up and knock you over the head with it every time. Nothing is worst than Satan using the truth of Gods Word that you refuse to accept against you. So I feel your correct in your point here but don't abandon the weapon that says that "God adds to the Church as He sees fit."

 

[Tombo]

I agree that they have the same attributes or characteristics. Jesus Christ was given authority over things in his earthly ministry by his Father, God. He was given the authority to forgive sins, heal the sick, etc. from his Father, God. The words (logos) he spoke, the works he did the Father gave him to do. God is the Father, Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, the Holy Spirit is God and he gives us what He is through the gift of holy spirit, the new birth.

Thanks Tom concerning R.C. Sproul's lectures on the Trinity but I believe I will just stick with what God said about His Son and what Jesus Christ says about his Father.

God bless.

You ask for answers, but you don't want to take the time to listen to six short lectures on such an important subject!!!! Everyone here admits that they are not an island, and that they have learned from others, so why the fear of watching if you are so sure of the truth you have?
That's the kind of attitude that sets off alarms with me. When someone is presented with an opposing view, they won't listen because they just want to stick with what they've always believed.
I have said before that I've listened to R.C. Sproul and other reformed teachers for quite a while, yet when I could no longer see the truth of the immortality of the soul, and the everlasting nature of hell, I had to abandon it for what I saw the Bible was teaching. I am not one that blindly holds on to a teaching because it's what I've always believed.
But I have also searched out the concept of the Trinity in the Bible, and I find it irrefutable. I think with such a critical subject as this, no one should rest until they are persuaded one way or the other. I could care less about winning an argument. Believe me, I am not waiting to do a happy dance because I've won you over to my position, although it would make me happy insofar as the truth being embraced by another.
I still maintain that anyone who denies Christ's deity is in serious trouble with God, that is why I push so hard to help others see the truth, if I can.
God bless.

Tom

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You ask for answers, but you don't want to take the time to listen to six short lectures on such an important subject!!!! Everyone here admits that they are not an island, and that they have learned from others, so why the fear of watching if you are so sure of the truth you have?
That's the kind of attitude that sets off alarms with me. When someone is presented with an opposing view, they won't listen because they just want to stick with what they've always believed.
I have said before that I've listened to R.C. Sproul and other reformed teachers for quite a while, yet when I could no longer see the truth of the immortality of the soul, and the everlasting nature of hell, I had to abandon it for what I saw the Bible was teaching. I am not one that blindly holds on to a teaching because it's what I've always believed.

I did ask why people used that verse - I thought you could answer me since that is what you believe. I have no fear of watching a video that you have recommended - I don't want to. I was raised in the Trinity doctrine,Tom and I also did a lot of soul searching and studying and praying. It's like God answered my prayers with this: "Why would I say that I have sent my only begotten Son if it were not true? Why would I say if you believe in my only begotten Son, you will have everlasting life, if it were not true"? and of course many other things were brought to mind. So I started believing God and His record of His Son.

But I have also searched out the concept of the Trinity in the Bible, and I find it irrefutable. I think with such a critical subject as this, no one should rest until they are persuaded one way or the other. I could care less about winning an argument. Believe me, I am not waiting to do a happy dance because I've won you over to my position, although it would make me happy insofar as the truth being embraced by another.

I find it refutable. I believe it is a critical subject to because to me to believe that God was Jesus Christ - there is no saviour. Adam started as God's perfect man, but he failed therefore there had to be another man to fix what Adam messed up. God sent his only begotten Son, he did not fail but always did the Father's will and therefore redeemed mankind. I love Jesus Christ my saviour who gave his life for me - he gave up his will to do the will of God who sent him. He endured the mocking, the ridicule, the scourging even to death for me. . . .for me. It is just amazing that a perfect man, unspotted, unblemished Lamb of God endured all that for me.

I still maintain that anyone who denies Christ's deity is in serious trouble with God, that is why I push so hard to help others see the truth, if I can.
God bless.

Tom

Thank you, Tom for your concern but see I feel the same way with Jesus Christ being the second Adam - God's Son. I don't see where believing God actually came in the flesh is the same as believing that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.(1 John)

Again thanks, and God bless you. PB

 

[Red33]

Nobody likes to be insulted, Red.

As to the rest of your post, the bible does not teach what you say.

Where does God's eternal and immutable word go when we die, along with the knowledge and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that we learned and grew up in? In the grave? The body has a sentence of death but the soul has been redeemed from death by the blood of Christ and is transformed and renewed by the word and the Spirit. When we die you have a redeemed soul that has been born again and has become a new creature in Christ, that at death just goes into the ground with a dead corpse that will rot in the grave? Is that it? If the body can't be detached from the soul, does the soul rot with the body? According to you it has to rot with the body, because it is not separated at death. I can see the body rotting in the grave but explain to me how the soul rots in the grave? Moses soul has been rotting in the grave for the past few thousand years. it that the way it goes? If the soul is waiting in the grave does it have a consciousness or is it dead and lifeless? If it has no conscious because it is dead, then how can it hope in the resurrection?

 

[shroom2]

Where does God's eternal and immutable word go when we die, along with the knowledge and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that we learned and grew up in? In the grave?

Yes. As far as our knowledge of it goes, the bible says that when we die, we know nothing.

The body has a sentence of death but the soul has been redeemed from death by the blood of Christ and is transformed and renewed by the word and the Spirit.

You are not made up of separate living parts. You are a body with soul, which makes you a living being. The body cannot stay alive without soul, and soul does not live on without the body.

When we die you have a redeemed soul that has been born again and has become a new creature in Christ, that at death just goes into the ground with a dead corpse that will rot in the grave? Is that it?

Yes. When you die, YOU are dead. YOU, a body and soul being, are dead.

If the body can't be detached from the soul, does the soul rot with the body? According to you it has to rot with the body, because it is not separated at death.

Again, we are not made up of separate living parts.

I can see the body rotting in the grave but explain to me how the soul rots in the grave?

Soul is simply that which makes the body alive. It is not "the real you". It is not an "essence" inhabiting your body.

Moses soul has been rotting in the grave for the past few thousand years. it that the way it goes?

MOSES is dead. Not just his body. The man is dead. Part of him did not "separate" and continue living.

If the soul is waiting in the grave does it have a consciousness or is it dead and lifeless?

It is dead.

If it has no conscious because it is dead, then how can it hope in the resurrection?

People actively hope while they are alive. When they die, there is no thought, emotion, nothing.

Those who are dead will be made alive again. For Christians, it will be at the rapture, for OT believers, at the resurrection of the just, and everyone else will be raised at the resurrection of the unjust, many of them to die the second, permanent death.

 

[Tombo]

Moses and Elijah were on the mount of transfiguration speaking with our Lord about His impending death. Again, read Philippians chapter 1 and 2 Corinthins chapter 5.
Don't believe these two deceivers who not only call our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ a created being, but call him a liar also. Jesus said "God is not the God of the dead but of the living."
He told the thief on the cross, "And He said to Him, Truly, I say to you, TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.
Beware of these wolves in sheeps clothing, they teach contrary to the Bible.
God bless.

Tom

 

[Tombo]

I did ask why people used that verse - I thought you could answer me since that is what you believe. I have no fear of watching a video that you have recommended - I don't want to. I was raised in the Trinity doctrine,Tom and I also did a lot of soul searching and studying and praying. It's like God answered my prayers with this: "Why would I say that I have sent my only begotten Son if it were not true? Why would I say if you believe in my only begotten Son, you will have everlasting life, if it were not true"? and of course many other things were brought to mind. So I started believing God and His record of His Son.

I find it refutable. I believe it is a critical subject to because to me to believe that God was Jesus Christ - there is no saviour. Adam started as God's perfect man, but he failed therefore there had to be another man to fix what Adam messed up. God sent his only begotten Son, he did not fail but always did the Father's will and therefore redeemed mankind. I love Jesus Christ my saviour who gave his life for me - he gave up his will to do the will of God who sent him. He endured the mocking, the ridicule, the scourging even to death for me. . . .for me. It is just amazing that a perfect man, unspotted, unblemished Lamb of God endured all that for me.

Thank you, Tom for your concern but see I feel the same way with Jesus Christ being the second Adam - God's Son. I don't see where believing God actually came in the flesh is the same as believing that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.(1 John)

Again thanks, and God bless you. PB

Who said that any of those things are untrue??? You make the mistake of thinking that God is playing three roles as the Father, Son and Holy Spririt. That is not the teaching of the Bible. The Bible makes clear that there are three distinct persons in the Godhead. Not three Gods. One God in essence, yet three in persons. There is a clear chain of command within the Godhead, with the Father sending the Son, the Son being obedient to the Father in coming to die for us, and the Holy Spirit being sent to apply the word of salvation and to open our eyes to all truth. The Holy Spirit indwells all saved people and enables us to live for God. But even though there are three persons in the Godhead, they are all God and are to be worshipped as God. They all share the same attributes of deity and are fully divine. When you read of Jesus being begotten, it is speaking of Him becoming a man, not of being created. That's why in 1 John it says "who is the antichrist but he who denies that Jesus came in the flesh". To "come" means he had to have previously existed, as Jesus makes clear in the gospel of John when He prays that the glory He had with the Father before the world existed be restored to Him.
I'm really starting to see where you're stumbling over this truth. You think that the teaching of the trinity teaches that there are three Gods, and you also think that when it speaks of being begotten (in Jesus' case) that it means being created (which is true as to His human nature, but not His divine nature).
You really should listen to those lectures, I think it would clear up a lot of confusion for you.
God bless.

Tom

 

[pray-n-bless]

In Ecclesiastes all spirit at physical death return to God. Who gave it. In the new age of grace all spirits still belong to God. when Christ returns there is a transformation of all,the creation itself changes hurray Praise the Lord Jesus

 

[Red33]

Soul is simply that which makes the body alive. It is not "the real you". It is not an "essence" inhabiting your body.

Then what makes up the essence of who we are when we are alive before death? If the soul makes the body alive but is not the essence of who we are even at death, then what is our essence?

You seem to be a little timid from talking and expounding about the redemption of the soul at the moment of salvation. The body is not redeemed at salvation but the soul is, so there is a difference at salvation between the soul and the body, one is redeemed and the other has to wait for the resurrection for its redemption. You can't deny that but you can avoid that and hide from it.

To me, all the following portions of scripture that speak of the soul relate to the essence of a man but to you they do not. Would you care to explain why and how the following verses DO NOT relate to the essence of a person and what they do relate to in your understanding...

Ps 86:2-4

2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee.
3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily. 4 Rejoice the soul of thy servant: for unto thee, O Lord, do I lift up my soul.

Ps 121:7
7 The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.

Also explain to me what the fruit of the Spirit in (Gal 5:22,23) relates to if it does not relate to the soul of a believer...

Gal 5:22,23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Also tell me what part of man or his essence is exercised in obedience or disobedience concerning the word or law of God?...Concerning prayer, walking in the Spirit etc.

Tell me why the word of God, that is quick and powerful, is able to divide the soul and spirit and the JOINTS AND MARROW in (Heb 4:12) and what God's purpose is in doing that and why is that significant to the believer...

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Explain the intent of our Lord when saying this to His disciples in (Mt 16:25,26)...

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

All words underlined are the same word, 'psuche' and refer to the soul. Is there no essence of a man indicated here either?

 

[shroom2]

Then what makes up the essence of who we are when we are alive before death? If the soul makes the body alive but is not the essence of who we are even at death, then what is our essence?

It's you, the person, your being. A human being of body and soul. God created us in His image. Part of that includes the ability to think, reason, make decisions, have and express emotions. People are integrated beings of body, soul, and for Christians, spirit.

You seem to be a little timid from talking and expounding about the redemption of the soul at the moment of salvation. The body is not redeemed at salvation but the soul is, so there is a difference at salvation between the soul and the body, one is redeemed and the other has to wait for the resurrection for its redemption. You can't deny that but you can avoid that and hide from it.

I am not "timid", or hiding from anything.

Again, the PERSON is redeemed at salvation. The PERSON is saved. If the person dies, when Christ returns, the PERSON will be raised from the dead.

Believing that we separate into various parts when we die, with part of us living on, is Greek mythology.

To me, all the following portions of scripture that speak of the soul relate to the essence of a man but to you they do not. Would you care to explain why and how the following verses DO NOT relate to the essence of a person and what they do relate to in your understanding...

Ps 86:2-4

2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee.
3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily. 4 Rejoice the soul of thy servant: for unto thee, O Lord, do I lift up my soul.

Ps 121:7
7 The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.

David is simply referring to his life, his being.

Also explain to me what the fruit of the Spirit in (Gal 5:22,23) relates to if it does not relate to the soul of a believer...

Gal 5:22,23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The fruit of the spirit are simply qualities that come from walking by the spirit.

Also tell me what part of man or his essence is exercised in obedience or disobedience concerning the word or law of God?...Concerning prayer, walking in the Spirit etc.

The man is to exercise HIMSELF to obedience.

Tell me why the word of God, that is quick and powerful, is able to divide the soul and spirit and the JOINTS AND MARROW in (Heb 4:12) and what God's purpose is in doing that and why is that significant to the believer...

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Explain the intent of our Lord when saying this to His disciples in (Mt 16:25,26)...

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

All words underlined are the same word, 'psuche' and refer to the soul. Is there no essence of a man indicated here either?

Red..... It simply means the MAN. The PERSON.

You're basing your theology on Greek mythology.