Who is Babylon the Great Harlot?

[Jackson123]

No. I was just saying we don't know what last hour John was discussing. John never says "in the last hour of the Tribulation the AntiChrist will appear." It's all speculation. Regardless, let's say you are correct. I think the Man of Sin is the Beast of the Sea from Revelation 18. I believe he comes during Satan's tribulation and that he is responsible for most of the slaughtering of Christians and Jews.

You think that the Man of Sin/AntiChrist comes from within us, from the Church. Based on one verse which clearly states that AntiChrists (multiple) have come out from us. It does not say THE AntiChrist comes out from us. Please read it again. Look at the next verse. It is all plural. It is all about THEY.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Now consider this. John was in Asia Minor at the time he wrote this. Asia Minor is modern day Turkey. Turkey was the main part of the Ottoman Empire which was the 7th beast John wrote about. All 7 churches John wrote to in Rev 2-3 are in Turkey. Christianity was huge in Asia Minor at the start. Turkey was the birthplace of numerous Christian Apolstles and Saints such as Paul of Tarsus, Timothy, Nichols of Myra, and Polycarp of Smyrna, etc.

If the A/C was from one of these churches, then I think we satisfy the above without it being the Roman Catholic Church. Agreed? Nothing says the AntiChrist comes from the RCC. This is an assumption you make. If the A/C came from another church, would that satisfy you?

None of the other descriptions match the RCC. They all match ISLAM and Saudi Arabia perfectly. And the A/C coming from Turkey also matches.

they went out from us.


mean they come out from us. Us mean christian. If John say us, as a apostle John is consider us as christian not a race or resident.

Jew is the same race with John, but if they are not christian, they are outsider.

Seem to me you believe is:

When John said they are from us mean they are from Turkey.

I can't find other verse that said that Antichrist is from Turkey.

I believe since apostle John era, there is Antichrist in most of church every where, not only Turkey.

And if the there is Antichrist in Turkey 2000 years ago, do you believe the last Antichrist will be from Turkey?

The characteristic of Antichrist is that He will be worship by all nation as God and will be reign from the temple in Jerusalem.

I don't see any Muslim will pretend to be God, but Pope is. He represent Jesus on earth.

He want Jerusalem so badly.


I type Vatican want Jerusalem and found more than million article

About 1,410,000 results (0.63 seconds)

​

[h=2]Search Results[/h]

1. [h=3]The Vatican and Jerusalem[/h]www.redmoonrising.com/chamish/vaticanagenda.htm
   
   
   
   
   
   How Does The Vatican View The Legitimacy of Israel's Claims To Jerusalem? By Joel Bainerman ... of Jerusalem". It is something else, which the Vatican wants.
   
   
2. [h=3]Expose: The Vatican Wants to Lay its Hands on Jerusalem[/h]www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/150757
   
   
   
   Arutz Sheva
   
   
   
   Dec 15, 2011 - The Vatican is now reiterating demands for control of religious sites inJerusalem. Jordan's occupation 1948-1967 didn't bother them.
   
   
3. [h=3]Why Does the Vatican Want a Palestinian State ...[/h]https://www.thetrumpet.com/.../why-does-the-vati...The Philadelphia Trumpet
   
   
   
   In his sermon on Christmas Day, the current Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, Fouad Twal, reiterated Catholic support for Palestinian statehood. “We want a just and ...
   
   
4. [h=3]U.S. plan gives Jerusalem holy sites to Vatican[/h]www.wnd.com/.../u-s-plan-gives-jerusalem-holy-sites-to-...
   
   
   
   WorldNetDaily
   
   
   
   Dec 15, 2013 - U.S. plan gives Jerusalem holy sites to Vatican .... most people do not realize the Vatican has wanted to control Jerusalem for a very long time?
   
   

​

 

[Jackson123]

To brother Plainword,

I forget to ask you a question, How do you know that John epistle is only applicable for the Church in Turkey?

 

[Jackson123]

I remember something.

When some body draw a picture of Mohammad, Muslim mad and make big riot. Muslim doesn't believe that Mohammad can be draw, he is so holy.

Imagine if any Muslim pretend to be God. God is Holier than Mohammad. no body see God in the eyes of Muslim.

Than how Muslim will pretend to be God and rule from the temple?

 

[Jackson123]

Brother Plainword.

Think about this.

Went out/come out from us but not one of us. And you believe it mean Antichrist is from Turkey because us mean Turkey.


If us mean Turkey, then the sentence:
Went our/come our from Turkey but not one of Turkish.

Seem to me you believe the Antichrist is Turkish don't you

 

[PlainWord]

they went out from us.


mean they come out from us. Us mean christian. If John say us, as a apostle John is consider us as christian not a race or resident.

Jew is the same race with John, but if they are not christian, they are outsider.

Seem to me you believe is:

When John said they are from us mean they are from Turkey.

I can't find other verse that said that Antichrist is from Turkey.

I believe since apostle John era, there is Antichrist in most of church every where, not only Turkey.

And if the there is Antichrist in Turkey 2000 years ago, do you believe the last Antichrist will be from Turkey?

The characteristic of Antichrist is that He will be worship by all nation as God and will be reign from the temple in Jerusalem.

I don't see any Muslim will pretend to be God, but Pope is. He represent Jesus on earth.

He want Jerusalem so badly.


I type Vatican want Jerusalem and found more than million article

About 1,410,000 results (0.63 seconds)

​

Search Results

1. The Vatican and Jerusalem
   
   www.redmoonrising.com/chamish/vaticanagenda.htm
   
   
   
   
   
   How Does The Vatican View The Legitimacy of Israel's Claims To Jerusalem? By Joel Bainerman ... of Jerusalem". It is something else, which the Vatican wants.
2. Expose: The Vatican Wants to Lay its Hands on Jerusalem
   
   www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/150757
   
   
   
   Arutz Sheva
   
   
   
   Dec 15, 2011 - The Vatican is now reiterating demands for control of religious sites inJerusalem. Jordan's occupation 1948-1967 didn't bother them.
3. Why Does the Vatican Want a Palestinian State ...
   
   https://www.thetrumpet.com/.../why-does-the-vati...The Philadelphia Trumpet
   
   
   
   In his sermon on Christmas Day, the current Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, Fouad Twal, reiterated Catholic support for Palestinian statehood. “We want a just and ...
4. U.S. plan gives Jerusalem holy sites to Vatican
   
   www.wnd.com/.../u-s-plan-gives-jerusalem-holy-sites-to-...
   
   
   
   WorldNetDaily
   
   
   
   Dec 15, 2013 - U.S. plan gives Jerusalem holy sites to Vatican .... most people do not realize the Vatican has wanted to control Jerusalem for a very long time?

​

Its all Satanic misdirection. Not you, all the articles linking the Vatican to Jerusalem and the A/C coming from Rome or Jerusalem. Don't believe it. As I said, John was not in ROME when he wrote his 3 letters. He was not in Rome when he wrote Revelation. John was in Turkey. John wrote letters to the seven churches in Turkey warning them of things to come. So, when John says "US" he is literally talking to those same churches in Turkey.

We do very much have evidence that the A/C (Man of Sin, AKA, BEAST from the EARTH) comes from Turkey. We are told Satan's throne is in Turkey.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]“And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,

‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: [SUP]13 [/SUP]“I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is.

Pergamos is in Turkey. All 7 warning letters go out to churches in Turkey. We are told the Man of Sin is also called "the Little Horn." The Golden Horn is Istanbul which was the capital of the 7th Beast - Ottoman Empire.

We are told that the BEAST from the SEA had 7 heads, one of which was mortally wounded, yet lived.

And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns... We are later told the meaning of the heads...

The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

Mountains are often referred to as nations or spiritual strongholds. So, one of these nations/strongholds that the Beast sits upon was mortally wounded, yet lived. Could that be said of Rome? Sure but the implication is that his one head/nation comes back to life and plays a dominant part in end times prophesy. Secular Rome does not seem poised to make any kind of come back. Yes, the Catholic faith had been damaged with sex scandals and is trying to become more attractive to the masses, but what of the other 6 heads? There are no nations or spiritual Catholic strongholds around Israel and none of the major Catholic nations appear poised to make any threats towards Israel nor are any Catholic nations mentioned as nations which come up against Israel. Instead, those nations which are named to come up against Israel are all Muslim.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

This BEAST is a religious BEAST made up of 7 historical nations and will be the 8th but of the 7.

Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come.

This was as of John's day. Clearly those 6 are: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome. The 7th has to be the Ottoman Empire. Why, because all were in a continuous line of succession. They also all had one thing in common. They worshiped the same idols and persecuted God's people. Thus, the 8th BEAST to come will be doing the same. While Rome is one of the 7, so is Turkey. Rome is dominated by the Catholic faith which again does not worship idols (although they do have a lot of trinkets and Levetical type ceremonies - still, they are not putting those things above God). The Catholics do not appear to be a threat to kill Jews and Christians. But, what about Turkey?

Turkey is heavily Islamic. They have a new radical and hateful President who has stated he wants Turkey to make a come back. He hates Jews and the west. He does signs and "miracles" already. He is considered an outlaw who loves expensive stuff. He build a new palace that is out of this world.

The Ottoman Empire existed from 1299 when it took over the last part of the Roman Empire - Turkey - until 1922. I just learned this the other day. It was 1922 that the current Saudis defeated the Ottomans in Saudi Arabia. At that time, the Saudis took control of MECCA.

Another thing about Turkey. She is mentioned prominently as a nation who comes against Israel. Daniel tells us of a "KING from the NORTH" who I think sounds identical to Paul's Man of Sin. Rome is more from the West than it is from the North. However, Turkey is directly north from Israel.

 

[PlainWord]

To brother Plainword,

I forget to ask you a question, How do you know that John epistle is only applicable for the Church in Turkey?

John was ministering in Turkey the whole time he wrote the three Epistles. I'm not saying his epistles were only for churches in Asia Minor, I'm saying it was these churches where John's heart and service belonged. So clearly, John has these churches in mind. Again, the 7 letters of Rev 2-3 all went to churches in Turkey. So again, John's concern - thus his warnings - appear aimed at these churches. If the Man of Sin is to come from Turkey (as I believe) doesn't it make sense to warn those who will be persecuted and killed if they are your children in faith?

John's second Epistle was written "to the Elect lady and her Children." This could be a reference to another congregation that John knew personally.

 

[PlainWord]

I remember something.

When some body draw a picture of Mohammad, Muslim mad and make big riot. Muslim doesn't believe that Mohammad can be draw, he is so holy.

Imagine if any Muslim pretend to be God. God is Holier than Mohammad. no body see God in the eyes of Muslim.

Than how Muslim will pretend to be God and rule from the temple?

We have no concrete evidence that a third temple in Jerusalem will be built before the Man of Sin goes there. There is no teaching of a pre Millennial third temple being built. I know many believe this and I know the Jews would like to build it, but we are not told this conclusively. It could happen, but it just as easily might not.

Jesus states there will be an Abomination of Desolation "standing in the Holy Place" He doesn't identify where this place is or when. Many strong Christians believe this already happened with the 2nd temple by Titus.

Daniel states:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Again, he doesn't call it a temple even though Daniel is familiar with temples. Again, could this already have happened? Many think so.

Paul is the only one who refers to a temple but he wrote this while the 2nd temple was still standing.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as Godin the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Paul does not locate this temple. ISIS has stated that they will march on and take over the Vatican. Bold words to be sure. The Vatican is a fortress - I've been there - surrounded by high walls. The temple mount is not a fortress today. I don't want to spend much debate on this because I am fine with there being a 3rd temple or not.

The Muslims await the Mahdi. Christians await the return of Christ. Jews await the Messiah (who already came). Everyone is waiting for someone.

If a supernatural being came claiming to be all that each faith has been waiting for and does miracles to prove it, how many would fall for it? I would say many. Remember he comes with two horns like a Lamb. Again, Islam is waiting for the Mahdi or the 12th Imam.

Ron Cantrell has written a book about the Mahdi. He explained, "The Mahdi is a personage that is expected to come on the scene, by Islam, as a messiah figure. He is slotted to come in the end of time, according to their writings, very much like how we think of the return of Jesus."

Shiite Muslims believe the Mahdi, a descendent of the Prophet Mohammed, vanished in the middle of the 9th century. Cantrell told us, "The 12th Imam disappeared, around the age of 9, with a promise that he would return and he would bring Islam to its total fruition as the world's last standing religion." ISIS has stated the goal of spreading ISLAM to the whole world.

 

[john832]

We have no concrete evidence that a third temple in Jerusalem will be built before the Man of Sin goes there. There is no teaching of a pre Millennial third temple being built. I know many believe this and I know the Jews would like to build it, but we are not told this conclusively. It could happen, but it just as easily might not.

Jesus states there will be an Abomination of Desolation "standing in the Holy Place" He doesn't identify where this place is or when. Many strong Christians believe this already happened with the 2nd temple by Titus.

So, the Great Tribulation has passed? The sign it is to begin is the AoD. Mat 24:15-21.

Daniel states:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Again, he doesn't call it a temple even though Daniel is familiar with temples. Again, could this already have happened? Many think so.

Type and anti-type. Christ referred to this happening AGAIN at the end of the age.

Paul is the only one who refers to a temple but he wrote this while the 2nd temple was still standing.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as Godin the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Paul does not locate this temple. ISIS has stated that they will march on and take over the Vatican. Bold words to be sure. The Vatican is a fortress - I've been there - surrounded by high walls. The temple mount is not a fortress today. I don't want to spend much debate on this because I am fine with there being a 3rd temple or not.

The Muslims await the Mahdi. Christians await the return of Christ. Jews await the Messiah (who already came). Everyone is waiting for someone.

If a supernatural being came claiming to be all that each faith has been waiting for and does miracles to prove it, how many would fall for it? I would say many. Remember he comes with two horns like a Lamb. Again, Islam is waiting for the Mahdi or the 12th Imam.

Ron Cantrell has written a book about the Mahdi. He explained, "The Mahdi is a personage that is expected to come on the scene, by Islam, as a messiah figure. He is slotted to come in the end of time, according to their writings, very much like how we think of the return of Jesus."

Shiite Muslims believe the Mahdi, a descendent of the Prophet Mohammed, vanished in the middle of the 9th century. Cantrell told us, "The 12th Imam disappeared, around the age of 9, with a promise that he would return and he would bring Islam to its total fruition as the world's last standing religion." ISIS has stated the goal of spreading ISLAM to the whole world.

The Muslims are not the final resurrection of the Beast power. For a few years, many were trying to force Iran into the position of the King of the South. Iran doesn't fit, it was aligned with the King of the North, Syria under the Seleucids, until Rome overran Syria and thereby becoming the KoN.

The KoN will be the seventh and final resurrection of the Holy Roman empire.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's a good conversation though, and topics like these always keep me on my toes and in the Word.

I just heard an amazing study linking the man of sin to the papal dynasty. I'm not sold on it, but it was really solid.

I think some of the errors or variations in interpretation occur when we think of the whole thing as being either past, or present, or future, rather than a mix of the three... or maybe I'm the one not narrowing down enough...

I still haven't heard a solid refutation of the the interpretation of the great harlot being false Israel/false Church. It seems to me that she is Hagar, and her children are the children of Hagar. Pretending to be Children of Promise, but are truly children of the flesh, and born of slavery. This brings us to the exile of the Jews in Babylon, and be coming one with Babylon in "adultery and fornication", except for the Remnant God saved for Himself.

This same spirit runs through all the false religions, with them placing their "God" above the True God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Their "God" or Allah or Jehovah, or YHWH is only "God" in name, but not in Spirit or in Truth. By rejecting the Son, they reject the Father, and their worship is not to the Father, but false worship.

BTW, I am open to rebuke and refutation. This is something I have come to in my own study, and only confirmed by a few. This is why I keep asking about it, to gain confirmation or refutation.
But so far, no one directly addresses it, only shoves it aside in favor of Rome or Islam or US, rather than refuting it.

Babylon was the center of the pagan religion. In johns day, Rome was the center, and Ceasar was the High Priest.

It spread through out the world. Baal worship was a type of babylonian pagan worship, which came from babylon.

Greek and Roman mythology is all a part of this Babylonian cult, or harlotry (false Gods)

Anytime Israel was accused of playing the harlot. Their sin was to be worshiping these pagan Gods, which again originated in Babylon,

the proper hermeneutic would interpret babylon as people would have interpreted it in John's day, And not our day (for it was origionally written to them in their language, their culture, and their belief system)

Thus babylon has to do with the pagan cult worship which originated in babylon.

1. The us does not represent this, thus they are ruled out, they look nothing like this pagan ritual religious system
2. Islam also does not represent this, they look nothing like the pagan worship of many gods, or even the ritual and traditions. thus it is hermeneutically ruled out.

thus we are left. What world religious system, which has great power and influence over the kings of the world. would represent the rituals, the traditions, and the customs of the pagan cults which originated in babylon.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, the issue with this view is that Islam is not the "mother of all harlots and abominations in the world", but only one of many harlots and abominations. Find the mother of Islam, and you find Mystery Babylon.

She is not simply a religion, but the mother of false religions and false doctrine,
mother of both the legalist and the licentious.

When you see all of her children coming together under one flag, then you will see in which city she she calls home. It was, and is not, and will be again.

I would disagree, You will not find the mother of harlots in islam at all.

it is more of a perverted Jewish religion based on the sexualisation of men, and demoralising of women. That is what Muhammad used to gain converts. He attacked people who opposed him, and said that all women of the enemy were free reign to the victor. there is no rape in islam, Not to mention, he added the 40 virgins.

Islam is a 1 God religion, where as the harlot is many Gods.

 

[PlainWord]

So, the Great Tribulation has passed? The sign it is to begin is the AoD. Mat 24:15-21.

I didn't say the Great Tribulation has passed. Please read what I said.

Many strong Christians believe this already happened with the 2nd temple by Titus.

Many believe (not me) that it has passed. Elin and GaryA believe that the Great Tribulation has been going on since Titus.

The Muslims are not the final resurrection of the Beast power.

The final BEAST power is ISLAM and they are from the North of Israel involving Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran. Time will tell who is right.

 

[PlainWord]

The KoN will be the seventh and final resurrection of the Holy Roman empire.

The evidence would strongly suggest the above statement is completely 100% false. None of the countries that come up against Israel (which are named) are Roman or Catholic. They are all ISLAMIC.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The evidence would strongly suggest the above statement is completely 100% false. None of the countries that come up against Israel (which are named) are Roman or Catholic. They are all ISLAMIC.

thats a huge assumption there, I would not base my theology on assumptions.

Scripture states clearly the final beast who comes up against jerusalem, and is slaughtered by the return of Christ is Roman. I would stick with scripture, not assumptions based on someones belief system.

 

[PlainWord]

Thus babylon has to do with the pagan cult worship which originated in babylon.

You were doing good until you said this. Future Babylon has tons to do with original Babylon. That's why it is called Babylon, because of the similarities. What worship was going on in Daniel's Babylon?? They fell down to worship an image and did so when music played.

"To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages, 5 that at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, you shall fall down and worship the gold image that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up.

Now how do today's ISLAM worship? The same way. What does Revelation say about the music that was used to call them to worship?

22 The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore.

Same music call Muslims to fall down and face the image at Mecca. Ever hear Muslim worship music?

Is there an image to be worshiped in modern Babylon?

15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

2. Islam also does not represent this, they look nothing like the pagan worship of many gods, or even the ritual and traditions. thus it is hermeneutically ruled out.

ISLAM fits everything. They do worship an Idol. They worship the Kaaba Stone.

What world religious system, which has great power and influence over the kings of the world. would represent the rituals, the traditions, and the customs of the pagan cults which originated in babylon.

Answer is easy. ISLAM. What religion are most of the world's KINGS?

 

[PlainWord]

Scripture states clearly the final beast who comes up against jerusalem, and is slaughtered by the return of Christ is Roman. I would stick with scripture, not assumptions based on someones belief system.

This I have to see!!! Show me where it says the final BEAST is Roman!!!!!!!!!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You were doing good until you said this. Future Babylon has tons to do with original Babylon. That's why it is called Babylon, because of the similarities. What worship was going on in Daniel's Babylon?? They fell down to worship an image and did so when music played.

"To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages, 5 that at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, you shall fall down and worship the gold image that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up.

Thats funny, that is exactly what I said, yet you say I messed up? do you read anything?

Now how do today's ISLAM worship? The same way. What does Revelation say about the music that was used to call them to worship?

22 The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore.

Same music call Muslims to fall down and face the image at Mecca. Ever hear Muslim worship music?

Is there an image to be worshiped in modern Babylon?

15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

ISLAM fits everything. They do worship an Idol. They worship the Kaaba Stone.



Answer is easy. ISLAM. What religion are most of the world's KINGS?

in answer to your last question. Catholic.

Catholisism has more influence and power of the world than Islam ever had.

Paganism is not based on one God, it is multi god, baal was just one god, there were many gods, including the God who sat on the throne (seen in egyptian and roman Pharoes and Ceasars, as well as most of the pagan states) If you look at the staue, who was it of? it was of the king, whoc considered himelf as God, No king in islam considers himself God or demands to be worshipped like a God.

Nice try bro. but you have it all wrong. For some reason Islam has you ruinning scared,, why I have no clue.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This I have to see!!! Show me where it says the final BEAST is Roman!!!!!!!!!!

the final beast is iron and clay, It is rome.

do you even study the OT? or do you just make things up?

 

[PlainWord]

Islam is a 1 God religion, where as the harlot is many Gods.

The Harlot is not many Gods. Wow! The Harlot is the Mother of all False Religions. ISLAM is the Mother (or largest) false religion.

 

[PlainWord]

the final beast is iron and clay, It is rome.

do you even study the OT? or do you just make things up?

hahaha. sorry. you made me laugh. Daniel spoke of 4 beasts. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. Rome was the most terrible of those 4.

John gives us 8 beasts: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Ottoman and the Last or 8th, which is of the 7.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Harlot is not many Gods. Wow! The Harlot is the Mother of all False Religions. ISLAM is the Mother (or largest) false religion.

lol.. You have not studied history or religious cults much have you?

Paganism is based on a multi God system, (look at greek mythology and roman mythology, which was the harlot system which is well documented) that is the mother system.

Islam is not the largest false religion. Romanism and her children far outnumber islam by an enormous amount, they do not even come close.