Who is right—Paul, David, or are they both right?
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You say it was the requirements of the LAW that perfection was required, but Christ said it was HIs requirement. Christ said if you love me you will obey me.
We know that because we are human, we can't do that and we can rely on that we have forgiveness when we don't, but Christ explained that as Christ told us to be in repentance of sin. We can't accept sin in our life and be repentant of sin at the same time.
If we would ask Christ for salvation based on our obedience, THEN we would have to be perfect, but we don't ask Christ to do that. We ask Christ to forgive us based on our faith and our repentance. If we want to keep the sin in our life, if we don't want to give it to Him for forgiveness, then we can keep our sin and not be saved. That is what you teaching amounts to, you are teaching to accept sin in our life.
We know that because we are human, we can't do that and we can rely on that we have forgiveness when we don't, but Christ explained that as Christ told us to be in repentance of sin. We can't accept sin in our life and be repentant of sin at the same time.
If we would ask Christ for salvation based on our obedience, THEN we would have to be perfect, but we don't ask Christ to do that. We ask Christ to forgive us based on our faith and our repentance. If we want to keep the sin in our life, if we don't want to give it to Him for forgiveness, then we can keep our sin and not be saved. That is what you teaching amounts to, you are teaching to accept sin in our life.
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Right. And when we receive this free gift that makes us the same as if we were righteous, why in the world would we desire to have unrighteousness? I should think everyone who is saved would want to keep in the saved state, and not WANT to go back to their sinful state. Christ answers our prayer, why pray for unrighteousness?
E
I did not say it.
moses did
Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”
and paul did
Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed iseveryone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
Paul understood what moses meant
sadly as as usual, you do not understand what moses said, you want to put people back under law
yes his children obey God, they don’t do it by obeying the law.
as James said, if we keep the whole law yet stumble in one area, we are guilty
how many times do,you have to be shown these passages before the light comes on?
moses did
Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”
and paul did
Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed iseveryone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
Paul understood what moses meant
sadly as as usual, you do not understand what moses said, you want to put people back under law
yes his children obey God, they don’t do it by obeying the law.
as James said, if we keep the whole law yet stumble in one area, we are guilty
how many times do,you have to be shown these passages before the light comes on?
re:Christians observing the law - (the law which was given by Moses to the Hebrews.)
In case you are confusion due to the conflicting views presented on this thread....
Please just read Acts 15 instead of all the arguments on here.
It sums up the agreed position of all of the apostles, and first church's entire teaching on this matter.
(THE CONCLUSION OF THE JEWISH BELIEVING ELDERS AND ALL THE APOSTLES, to the teaching that Genitle believers have to observe the law.)
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
(WORDS OF PETER in response to those who were insisting gentile believers must KEEP THE LAW)
Acts 15 V 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
So this news was really was something to rejoice about... as the "yoke of the law" Paul stated, was so heavy that neither the Israelites' fathers nor the Israelites themselves were able to bear it. (Obviously this was not referring to circumcision either, as some would have you believe, but the law itself.)
To insinuate that one sealed by the Holy Spirit, whom Christ is interceding for, will take pleasure and find any excuse to walk in sin - because they have taken Jesus LIGHT AND EASY YOKE rather than the heavy yolk of the law, is to deny that "IT IS GOD WHO WORKS IN YOU TO WILL AND TO DO HIS GOOD PLEASURE" and that "He who began a good work in you shall complete it."
In case you are confusion due to the conflicting views presented on this thread....
Please just read Acts 15 instead of all the arguments on here.
It sums up the agreed position of all of the apostles, and first church's entire teaching on this matter.
(THE CONCLUSION OF THE JEWISH BELIEVING ELDERS AND ALL THE APOSTLES, to the teaching that Genitle believers have to observe the law.)
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
(WORDS OF PETER in response to those who were insisting gentile believers must KEEP THE LAW)
Acts 15 V 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
So this news was really was something to rejoice about... as the "yoke of the law" Paul stated, was so heavy that neither the Israelites' fathers nor the Israelites themselves were able to bear it. (Obviously this was not referring to circumcision either, as some would have you believe, but the law itself.)
To insinuate that one sealed by the Holy Spirit, whom Christ is interceding for, will take pleasure and find any excuse to walk in sin - because they have taken Jesus LIGHT AND EASY YOKE rather than the heavy yolk of the law, is to deny that "IT IS GOD WHO WORKS IN YOU TO WILL AND TO DO HIS GOOD PLEASURE" and that "He who began a good work in you shall complete it."
Does God have any advise for how Christians should live? Aside from the fact that Christians believe in Jesus, is there any other difference between Christians and unsaved?
And how does the holy spirit guide us? Can you give an example of how the holy spirit has guided you?
Ok so what did Jesus say about how we should live?
Can you give an example of the law of the spirit that is written on our hearts which we are subject to?
And how does the holy spirit guide us? Can you give an example of how the holy spirit has guided you?
Ok so what did Jesus say about how we should live?
Can you give an example of the law of the spirit that is written on our hearts which we are subject to?
Romans 14 - It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
In other words, seek the good of others, put others first, dont make them stumble, encourage and buildup others, visit them when they are sick, clothe them when they are naked and feed them when they are hungry, care for the orphan and the widow, love others fervently, esteem them higher than yourself...
LAY DOWN YOUR LIFE FOR YOU THEM, FOR WHAT YOU DO TO THEM, YOU HAVE DONE TO CHRIST.
By this shall all men know that you are his disciples, IF YOU LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
This does not come by cramming law into our minds, but rather by the fruit of the Holy Spirit growing in a believers life - which is summed up as love.
In other words, seek the good of others, put others first, dont make them stumble, encourage and buildup others, visit them when they are sick, clothe them when they are naked and feed them when they are hungry, care for the orphan and the widow, love others fervently, esteem them higher than yourself...
LAY DOWN YOUR LIFE FOR YOU THEM, FOR WHAT YOU DO TO THEM, YOU HAVE DONE TO CHRIST.
By this shall all men know that you are his disciples, IF YOU LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
This does not come by cramming law into our minds, but rather by the fruit of the Holy Spirit growing in a believers life - which is summed up as love.
This is why we have so much confusion. Each person is going in his own way following an abstract guide.
The law in your heart tell you you dont need to be baptised. While someone else say they are led in their heart to baptise.
Someone say they are led to stay married because divorce is sin. While the next man say the law in his heart set him free to divorce.
Lol. Lol. Lol
The law in your heart tell you you dont need to be baptised. While someone else say they are led in their heart to baptise.
Someone say they are led to stay married because divorce is sin. While the next man say the law in his heart set him free to divorce.
Lol. Lol. Lol
Ironically that way of thinking is kind of what Peter and James were dealing with in Acts chapter 14 and 15... Not to mention the centuries of people like Abraham, Noah and other "righteous men' that somehow pleased God without the law.
Did the law make people good? No.
That is exactly the point. It showed them they were NOT good.
THE LAW IS FOR LAWLESS PEOPLE
BUT Love fulfils the law at its heart, for it does no harm to its neighbour.
Please stop and think..... you are saying that without the law we don't know how to be ...moral, good or holy?
BUT Jesus gives us His own Holy Spirit...
The very same Holy Spirit.... THAT RAISED JESUS from the dead.... is working in us BOTH to willl and to do GOD'S good pleasure. Not our own.
How do you know a Christian? By their fruits. What are the fruits of the Holy Spirit? If they aren't there, they they aren't a Christian. Because the Holy Spirit is not indwelling them conforming them to the image of Christ.
This is the power of God. This is not the determination, comprehension or superior knowledge of man at work here.
Those who live by the law, shall die by it. NO ONE IS MADE RIGHTEOUS BY THE LAW.
But, through one mans obedience to it, those who believe on Him are made righteous but faith. LIKE ABRAHAM. BEFORE THE LAW.
How did Enoch walk with God before the law? You believe it impossible... but it is not.
Perhaps you think little of James and the others for the letter they wrote to the gentile believers, for not putting on them the yoke of the law? But they did it none the less. And no less gentiles bore the fruit of the Holy Spirit as a result of it.
Those who love God love others, those who dont love others don't know the love of God. It doesn't say they dont know the law.... but they dont know the love of God.
It isn't rocket science. It is knowing the LOVE OF GOD, and through the SPIRIT'S power working in us, we can come to BE FILLED WITH THE FULNESS OF GOD!!!
I mean is someone who this has happened to going to be going around doing evil? Of course NOT.
Ephesians 3 v 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
There will ALWAYS be some who use grace as an excuse to sin, just as there will always be those who preach from selfish ambition and for personal gain...
But that does not change the truth that the simple message of the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
And the simple truth is total foolishness to those who perish, for greeks seek knowledge, and the Jews seek a sign... but knowledge puffs up where as love edifies.
If you want to observe the law, or the sabbath, or feast days, or be circumcised, or not eat pork and so on, you are free to do so.
But do not speak evil of those who are free from the yoke of the law and are instead married to Christ.
Did the law make people good? No.
That is exactly the point. It showed them they were NOT good.
THE LAW IS FOR LAWLESS PEOPLE
BUT Love fulfils the law at its heart, for it does no harm to its neighbour.
Please stop and think..... you are saying that without the law we don't know how to be ...moral, good or holy?
BUT Jesus gives us His own Holy Spirit...
The very same Holy Spirit.... THAT RAISED JESUS from the dead.... is working in us BOTH to willl and to do GOD'S good pleasure. Not our own.
How do you know a Christian? By their fruits. What are the fruits of the Holy Spirit? If they aren't there, they they aren't a Christian. Because the Holy Spirit is not indwelling them conforming them to the image of Christ.
This is the power of God. This is not the determination, comprehension or superior knowledge of man at work here.
Those who live by the law, shall die by it. NO ONE IS MADE RIGHTEOUS BY THE LAW.
But, through one mans obedience to it, those who believe on Him are made righteous but faith. LIKE ABRAHAM. BEFORE THE LAW.
How did Enoch walk with God before the law? You believe it impossible... but it is not.
Perhaps you think little of James and the others for the letter they wrote to the gentile believers, for not putting on them the yoke of the law? But they did it none the less. And no less gentiles bore the fruit of the Holy Spirit as a result of it.
Those who love God love others, those who dont love others don't know the love of God. It doesn't say they dont know the law.... but they dont know the love of God.
It isn't rocket science. It is knowing the LOVE OF GOD, and through the SPIRIT'S power working in us, we can come to BE FILLED WITH THE FULNESS OF GOD!!!
I mean is someone who this has happened to going to be going around doing evil? Of course NOT.
Ephesians 3 v 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
There will ALWAYS be some who use grace as an excuse to sin, just as there will always be those who preach from selfish ambition and for personal gain...
But that does not change the truth that the simple message of the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
And the simple truth is total foolishness to those who perish, for greeks seek knowledge, and the Jews seek a sign... but knowledge puffs up where as love edifies.
If you want to observe the law, or the sabbath, or feast days, or be circumcised, or not eat pork and so on, you are free to do so.
But do not speak evil of those who are free from the yoke of the law and are instead married to Christ.
SCRIPTURE CALLS IT FRUIT. FRUIT IS NOT LAW.
There is a debate because quite simply people prefer to make others do what they believe is right.
There is a debate because people do not like what is written in Acts 15 and so choose to ignore it.
There is a debate for all the same reasons the book of Romans had to be written, and for all the same reasons that James had to write to the gentiles, because people are still saying and believing what those early Jewish leaders believed, while others believe what Peter and James and Paul believed right teaching for the gentiles.
There is debate because we are failures and we are flawed and because none of us have all knowledge but are all convinced we are right.
That is no different to the debates within the church of the New Testament. To the disunity that the jews and gentiles had then. To the battle Paul and others had to stop the Jewish believers judging the gentile believers and trying to turn them into jewish proselytes.
Only now it is gentile believers doing it to other gentile believers, because we are still flawed humans who want to mould and convince others to and of our own understanding and our own convictions.
There is a debate because quite simply people prefer to make others do what they believe is right.
There is a debate because people do not like what is written in Acts 15 and so choose to ignore it.
There is a debate for all the same reasons the book of Romans had to be written, and for all the same reasons that James had to write to the gentiles, because people are still saying and believing what those early Jewish leaders believed, while others believe what Peter and James and Paul believed right teaching for the gentiles.
There is debate because we are failures and we are flawed and because none of us have all knowledge but are all convinced we are right.
That is no different to the debates within the church of the New Testament. To the disunity that the jews and gentiles had then. To the battle Paul and others had to stop the Jewish believers judging the gentile believers and trying to turn them into jewish proselytes.
Only now it is gentile believers doing it to other gentile believers, because we are still flawed humans who want to mould and convince others to and of our own understanding and our own convictions.
So did Christ tell us to be perfect, do you believe Christ? Matt. 5:28 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Moses is true, Christ is true, one truth does not cancel the other truth. Christ knew we couldn't be perfect, Christ knew we were to repent of our sins and that we need to want to be perfect.
It is also true that as human's we can't attain that, Christ only asks for our will. Christ is our leader, Christ is our coach telling us how to attain salvation. A coach does not coach to achieve failure but holds perfection before us as our goal. Our goal must be freedom from sin that we want, and only Christ can give. It is a win, win situation.
Moses is true, Christ is true, one truth does not cancel the other truth. Christ knew we couldn't be perfect, Christ knew we were to repent of our sins and that we need to want to be perfect.
It is also true that as human's we can't attain that, Christ only asks for our will. Christ is our leader, Christ is our coach telling us how to attain salvation. A coach does not coach to achieve failure but holds perfection before us as our goal. Our goal must be freedom from sin that we want, and only Christ can give. It is a win, win situation.
The context of the few scriptures that say we must be perfect, have little to do with sin, but rather refer to having the type of wholeness of a God who can endlessly give to everyone regardless of what He gets - if anything- in return. And He gives both to the righteous and the unrighteous. (To the grateful and the ungrateful )- for no one can add to what He owns, nor His stature, not His person.
He needs nothing, nor asks anything in return, for He is complete - perfect- and entirely whole in Himself.
matt 5
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Later in Matthew, Jesus also says to the rich young man, "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."
James writes in ch 1 v 4 But let patience have her perfect (sinless? no. it means complete) work, that ye may be perfect (complete or whole) and entire, wanting nothing.
Same principle of this PERFECTION. It is to be complete, to need nothing.... to be this whole we must be FILLED with the Holy Spirit
How is this "perfection" possible - not through law, as Jesus explained to the rich man (who had observed the law since his youth) but as Paul prays in Ephesians 3, that we might come to know the fullness love of God in Christ Jesus - that we might be filed with ALL THE FULNESS OF GOD - by to the power of the Spirit at work in us - doing that which is more than we can ask think or even imagine.
Jesus said the devil came but could find no place in Him... this is because He was already filled with the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Not because He was bound by the law - though He did fulfil it.
Only by the power of the Holy Spirit can anyone produce the fruit of the Spirit of Love, have streams of living water pour forth from there innermost being and so on. Complete/Perfect Righteousness is already ours, if we have Jesus. If we let patience have her perfect work, we too can become entire and needing nothing like our Lord.
He needs nothing, nor asks anything in return, for He is complete - perfect- and entirely whole in Himself.
matt 5
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Later in Matthew, Jesus also says to the rich young man, "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."
James writes in ch 1 v 4 But let patience have her perfect (sinless? no. it means complete) work, that ye may be perfect (complete or whole) and entire, wanting nothing.
Same principle of this PERFECTION. It is to be complete, to need nothing.... to be this whole we must be FILLED with the Holy Spirit
How is this "perfection" possible - not through law, as Jesus explained to the rich man (who had observed the law since his youth) but as Paul prays in Ephesians 3, that we might come to know the fullness love of God in Christ Jesus - that we might be filed with ALL THE FULNESS OF GOD - by to the power of the Spirit at work in us - doing that which is more than we can ask think or even imagine.
Jesus said the devil came but could find no place in Him... this is because He was already filled with the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Not because He was bound by the law - though He did fulfil it.
Only by the power of the Holy Spirit can anyone produce the fruit of the Spirit of Love, have streams of living water pour forth from there innermost being and so on. Complete/Perfect Righteousness is already ours, if we have Jesus. If we let patience have her perfect work, we too can become entire and needing nothing like our Lord.
Matthew 5:44,48 ESV
[44] But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, [48] You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Blik are you trying to make a case that you are perfect or can attain a state of perfection?
That would be taking the Pharisaical Road. It's a severe and unloving path and will end you up here with the Pharisee ...
Luke 18:10-14 ESV
[10] "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [11] The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. [12] I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' [13] But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' [14] I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."
Learn what grace is all about so that you may be gracious to others.
[44] But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, [48] You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Blik are you trying to make a case that you are perfect or can attain a state of perfection?
That would be taking the Pharisaical Road. It's a severe and unloving path and will end you up here with the Pharisee ...
Luke 18:10-14 ESV
[10] "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [11] The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. [12] I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' [13] But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' [14] I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."
Learn what grace is all about so that you may be gracious to others.
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People are great at accusing others, not great at all at helping others or being honest. Back up your accusing me of speaking of myself in any way as I post about the words of the Lord. You say I say I am perfect. !!! I say that even the Lord knew we couldn't be perfect as the Lord asks us to want to be perfect.
This post seems to be asking people to want to be sinful, is that what you are preaching?
If that is what you are saying about the word, please give where you find scripture to back up wanting to be sinful.
This post seems to be asking people to want to be sinful, is that what you are preaching?
If that is what you are saying about the word, please give where you find scripture to back up wanting to be sinful.
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