Who Justifieth the Ungodly

reneweddaybyday · Dec 18, 2022

nope ... Scripture does not state "elect world" as you insist. You need to read Scripture just as written ... quit adding words or concepts which the Author of Scripture never intended. Just read as written.

The fact that God does not state "the world of Gods elect, all ethnic groups of the saved" indicates that He means the world, the whole world, and whosoever believeth.

If God had meant "the world of Gods elect, all ethnic groups of the saved", He is quite capable of stating that.

Your attempt to align Scripture to your dogma has again failed.
.

reneweddaybyday · Dec 18, 2022

brightfame52 said:

The Lord Jesus Christ died for the world ... the whole world.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
.

reneweddaybyday · Dec 18, 2022

brightfame52 said:

... no it's not. If you would stop conflating records in Scripture, you might just begin to comprehend what it is the Author of Scripture wants you to understand.

Again, continuing to read the CONTEXT laid out in John 3, the Lord Jesus Christ makes clear that the reason Nicodemus did not know these things (vs 10) was because he did not receive [lambanō] the witness:

John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

Jesus makes clear that it was not because Nicodemus could not hear or that Nicodemus could not understand ... but because Nicodemus did not receive our witness.

The word "receive" is translated from the Greek word lambanō which means:

"actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively)accepting what is available (offered). 2983/lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.

HELPS Word-studies

... and I know you will not receive the witness because your erroneous dogma requires that one must be regenerated (born again) before he/she can hear. Well that information is not included in the record in John 3 so you're going to have to find another record in Scripture to support your claim.
.

brightfame52 · Dec 19, 2022

reneweddaybyday said:

Again, all those verses with the word world in it Jn 3:16-17; 1 Jn 2:2 and the like, they only pertain to the elect of God from all nations and people groups.

brightfame52 · Dec 19, 2022

reneweddaybyday said:

All these verses pertain to the saved world of Gods elect. For instance the whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 has #1 Christ as their propitiation and #2 in Vs 1 He is their advocate because He has saved them 1 Jn 2:1

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

And He is their righteousness with the Father.

So none of them are under the wrath of God.

brightfame52 · Dec 19, 2022

reneweddaybyday said:

... no it's not. If you would stop conflating records in Scripture, you might just begin to comprehend what it is the Author of Scripture wants you to understand.

Again, continuing to read the CONTEXT laid out in John 3, the Lord Jesus Christ makes clear that the reason Nicodemus did not know these things (vs 10) was because he did not receive [lambanō] the witness:

John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

Jesus makes clear that it was not because Nicodemus could not hear or that Nicodemus could not understand ... but because Nicodemus did not receive our witness.

The word "receive" is translated from the Greek word lambanō which means:

"actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively)accepting what is available (offered). 2983/lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.

HELPS Word-studies

... and I know you will not receive the witness because your erroneous dogma requires that one must be regenerated (born again) before he/she can hear. Well that information is not included in the record in John 3 so you're going to have to find another record in Scripture to support your claim.
.

Yes 1 Cor 2:14 tells us the natural man isnt spiritually fit to understand the Gospel. He first needs to be born of the Spirit.

reneweddaybyday · Dec 21, 2022

brightfame52 said:

nope ... Scripture does not state "elect" world as you insist. You need to read Scripture just as written ... quit adding words or concepts which the Author of Scripture never intended. Just read what He wrote as written.

The fact that God does not state "the world of Gods elect, all ethnic groups of the saved" indicates that He means the world, the whole world, and whosoever believeth.

If God had meant "the world of Gods elect, all ethnic groups of the saved", He is quite capable of stating that.

Your attempt to align Scripture to your dogma has again failed.
.

reneweddaybyday · Dec 21, 2022

brightfame52 said:

A claim for which you have provided absolutely no Scriptural support.

When God says "the world", He means the world ... when God says "the whole world", He means the whole world ... not some subset of humanity your erroneous dogma claims in its vain attempt to align Scripture to it.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma is in error, let go of the error.

brightfame52 said:

read the verses as stated:

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Verse 2 states that the Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only [the sins of the born again ones ... the little children of verse 1] but also for the sins of the whole world [all those who are not born again].

Quit rearranging the words in Scripture in your futile effort to support your erroneous dogma.

Read the words as written by the Author of Scripture and have faith in what He has written.

The Lord Jesus Christ died for the world ... the whole world.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
.

reneweddaybyday · Dec 21, 2022

brightfame52 said:

reneweddaybyday said:

Yes 1 Cor 2:14 tells us the natural man isnt spiritually fit to understand the Gospel. He first needs to be born of the Spirit.

wrong ... 1 Cor 2:14 tells us the natural man receiveth not the hidden wisdom spoken of in 1 Cor 2:7. Quit conflating the gospel with the hidden wisdom about which, apparently, you know nothing.

God never hid the gospel. The gospel is revealed in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

The hidden wisdom was hid from ages and from generations (Col 1:26).

.

Snacks · Dec 21, 2022

brightfame52 said:

Why do you believe this?

brightfame52 · Dec 21, 2022

reneweddaybyday said:

They dont have to say elect, its already a given fact thats who Christ died for exclusively. Also anyone Christ died for is Justified according to Rom 4:25, the resurrection of Christ declares it. So everyone Christ died for, took part in His resurrection, which resurrection is a testification of their Justification, so Jn 3:16-17; 1Jn 2:2 and the likes Jn 1:29 are denoting the Justified/Saved.

brightfame52 · Dec 21, 2022

reneweddaybyday said:

A claim for which you have provided absolutely no Scriptural support.

When God says "the world", He means the world ... when God says "the whole world", He means the whole world ... not some subset of humanity your erroneous dogma claims in its vain attempt to align Scripture to it.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma is in error, let go of the error.

read the verses as stated:

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Verse 2 states that the Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only [the sins of the born again ones ... the little children of verse 1] but also for the sins of the whole world [all those who are not born again].

Quit rearranging the words in Scripture in your futile effort to support your erroneous dogma.

Read the words as written by the Author of Scripture and have faith in what He has written.

The Lord Jesus Christ died for the world ... the whole world.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
.

Again, all those verses apply exclusively to the Justified elect.

brightfame52 · Dec 21, 2022

reneweddaybyday said:

1 Cor 2:14 shows us that the natural man has no spiritual capacity to receive and understand the Gospel.

brightfame52 · Dec 21, 2022

Snacks said:

Glad you asked, read the thread you are in which I started and have been explaining my pov from scripture.

Snacks · Dec 21, 2022

brightfame52 said:

No thanks

brightfame52 · Dec 21, 2022

Snacks said:

Okay I holla at ya later !

Snacks · Dec 21, 2022

brightfame52 said:

Please don’t holla. Makes my ears ring. 😊

brightfame52 · Dec 25, 2022

What is True Justification by Faith ?

Now it has been established by me in my previous posts , that Justification before God is prior to ones believing, in fact prior to their natural existence as sinners, but scripture also makes it clear that the Justified ones [before God] shall Live by Faith, Rom 1:17

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

As it is written looks back to the OT scriptures, the Prophets Hab 2:4

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

And Living by Faith begins, when God through the Preaching of the Gospel, and the persuasive Power of the Holy Spirit, affirms in the Justified ones soul, that they are Just/Justified and forgiven of all their sins, like here in Acts 13:38

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

In other words, by this Preaching directly to them specifically, their Justification/ Forgiveness through Christ is positively being declared to them, being made known to them by Preaching and the Holy Ghost with Power, remember Paul wrote to the Thessalonians this 1 Thess 1:5

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

The Gospel came to them with powerful persuasiveness ! That word assurance, the greek word plērophoria means:

I.full assurance, most certain confidence, also it means:

C.to fill one with any thought, conviction, or inclination

i.to make one certain, to persuade, convince one

ii.to be persuaded, persuaded, fully convinced or assured

Translated also Lk 1:1

Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

Their forgiveness Preached unto them Acts 13:38 means their Justification from all sin is announced to them, convincing, persuading them of the same, that's the Spirits Work upon the Justified, He convinces them of their discharge from the penalty of their sins and the condemnation sin brings because of the violated, transgressed law ! 15

brightfame52 · Dec 29, 2022

What is True Justification by Faith ? 2

Their forgiveness Preached unto them Acts 13:38 means their Justification from all sin is announced to them, convincing, persuading them of the same, that's the Spirits Work upon the Justified, He convinces them of their discharge from the penalty of their sins and the condemnation sin brings because of the violated, transgressed law !

God is now by the foolishness of Preaching is making it known to them, that is making known to them of their discharge, acquittal from all sin, and being declared Just or righteous, and this is how they come to now know it and receive it by Faith, because the Preaching of the Gospel to them [the justified] is the Power of God unto Salvation, meaning that it results in their Salvation as to their Conversion/deliverance from Unbelief to belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Note: The Salvation here is the Belief of the Truth opposed to believing that which is a lie or not true !

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So God uses the Spiritual Gift of Faith, a Fruit of His Spirit in them Gal 5:22, as an Instrument to declare to them their remission of sins/ or Justification, and hence thats why we have scriptures like Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

By Faith there comes to the Justified one a Peace in now knowing experimentally that we have Peace with God Judicially through Jesus Christ !

Same with Rom 3:22,26

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

When we are Justified by Faith, it means that it has been given to be Justified within ourselves [with the knowledge of it] that we may find Peace through believing Rom 15:13

13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

This is an excellent harmony with Rom 5:1, its Peace, Comfort, Joy which Faith gives through the Knowledge of the Truth unto our consciousness, awareness, fulfilling also Lk 1:77

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

That results in Justification by Faith, to receive by God giving them a Knowledge of their Salvation in the remission of their sins !

That word knowledge means :

I.knowledge signifies in general intelligence, understanding,

gnṓsis (a feminine noun derived from 1097 /ginṓskō, "experientially know") – functional ("working") knowledge gleaned from first-hand (personal) experience, connecting theory to application; "application-knowledge," gained in (by) a direct relationship.

reneweddaybyday · Jan 1, 2023

brightfame52 said:

wrong, brightfame52. God does need to state "elect" in the verses ... otherwise "world" and "the whole world" and "whosoever" come to mean whatever the reader determines. And that is not proper interpretation of Scripture ... that is eisegesis.

Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in Bible study. Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.

The opposite approach to Scripture is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.

Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.

https://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html

brightfame52 said:

what is "a given fact" is what God states in His Word. And God tells us for whom the Lord Jesus Christ died:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Just read what is written ... no insertion of words which do not appear in the text in your feeble attempt to promulgate your erroneous dogma.

brightfame52 said:

sigh … more of your eisegesis. Ripping a verse out of the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it does not change the meaning of the verse to your stated dogma.

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

brightfame52 said:

"Jn 3:16-17; 1Jn 2:2 and the likes Jn 1:29" denote what God, the Author of Scripture, tells us.

And that would be the world, the whole world ... that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16).
.

Who Justifieth the Ungodly

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member