Who Justifieth the Ungodly

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brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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renewed

nope

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
5. the inhabitants of the world: ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race ... John 1:10, 29 ... John 3:16 ... 2 Corinthians 5:19 ... 1 John 2:2
Once again, the world here in these are strictly the elect.

more proof I was correct.

having said that ... what is "reasonably implied" is that I have never stated what you claim but that will not stop you from endlessly claiming I said that.
Again reasonably implied since you believe people who Christ shed His Blood for will yet be lost in their sins.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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nope ...

The passage explains that there are some who hear the gospel and suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein [in the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them


vs 16 – the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes.

vs 17 – the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel of Christ.

vs 18 – those who do not believe the gospel suppress the truth in unrighteousness. And please note, the verse does not state (as you erroneously claim) that they cannot hear the gospel. The verse says that when they hear they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

vs 19 – further corroborates that God reveals Himself and some reject God. Again, the verse makes clear it is man who rejects God.


Romans 1:21 – 32 reveals the downward spiral to the endpoint of the reprobate mind. No one is born in that state. The reprobate mind is the result of man stepping further and further away from God. As a person continues to suppress the truth in unrighteousness, there are downward steps to the reprobate mind:

vs 21 – foolish heart becomes darkened which results in behaviors shown in vss 22-23

vs 24 – given up to uncleanness which results in behaviors shown in vss 24-25

vs 26 – given up to vile affections which results in behaviors shown in vss 26-27

vs 28 – reprobate mind which results in behaviors shown in vss 28-32
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Again Rom 1:18ff can only apply to men and women who Christ did not die for, only they are under Gods wrath. God is reconciled to all men and women who Christ died for Rom 5:10

10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Eph 1:13 does not say "they heard and believed" ... and the verse says nothing about being "born again prior to believing.!" under your erroneous dogma, how many times must a person be born again before he/she is really, truly, really, really really, scout's honor born again???

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Ephesians 1:13 states a person trusts after he/she hears ... then sealed with that holy Spirit of promise after he/she believes.
just curious... have you ever looked at this verse in any other translation?
Hi notmyown ... yes, I have read the verse in other translations.

I have also read the verse in various texts.

In all the texts, the order of the words is the same (i.e. hear then believe then sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise).

The sealing of the Holy Spirit occurs the moment a person is born again.

The insistence by brightfame52 that a person is regenerated (which is to be born again) in order to hear does not align with what is written in Scripture.

.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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nope

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

5. the inhabitants of the world: ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race ... John 1:10, 29 ... John 3:16 ... 2 Corinthians 5:19 ... 1 John 2:2
Once again, the world here in these are strictly the elect.
you have provided no proof for your claim as you desperately cling to your erroneous dogma.

I will hold to Scripture.




brightfame52 said:
reneweddaybyday said:
:rolleyes: more proof I was correct.

having said that ... what is "reasonably implied" is that I have never stated what you claim but that will not stop you from endlessly claiming I said that.
Again reasonably implied
you again prove I was correct in my statement that you will endlessly continue to claim I did something I never did ...
 
Mar 23, 2016
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nope ...

The passage explains that there are some who hear the gospel and suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
only they are under Gods wrath
The born again ones were by nature the children of wrath, even as those who reject God:

Ephesians 2:

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


The only reason the born again ones are no longer children of wrath is because they did not suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) when someone shared the gospel with them.

It is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


If you don't believe, then you are still by nature [a child] of wrath, even as others (Eph 2:3).
.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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renewed

You believe in Justification conditioned on man
nope ... God, the Author of Scripture, determines the means through which He will justify.

Romans 3:24-26 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Oh Yes, you still believe in Justification conditioned on man. Quoting verses is truly a waste of time for you, because you don't even believe them



my point is everyone Christ died for are born Justified by His death
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
The world of the saved, the Justified.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
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renewed

you have provided no proof for your claim as you desperately cling to your erroneous dogma.

I will hold to Scripture.
I have provided much proof but you cant believe it. You deny scripture, in fact you are an enemy to it.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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The born again ones were by nature the children of wrath, even as those who reject God:

Ephesians 2:

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


The only reason the born again ones are no longer children of wrath is because they did not suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) when someone shared the gospel with them.

It is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


If you don't believe, then you are still by nature [a child] of wrath, even as others (Eph 2:3).
.
Aint nobody Christ died for, and propitiated Gods wrath for, are under Gods wrath, thats just ignorance.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
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renewed

The born again ones were by nature the children of wrath, even as those who reject God:

Ephesians 2:

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
This is true, by nature, prior to being born again, the elect of God are just as worthy of wrath as the reprobated lost. So God never chose the elect because they were anyway better than the non elect, for all without exception are worthy of Gods wrath. However, notice it never said they were under Gods wrath, because the elect are never under Gods wrath, they have always been accepted in Christ the beloved according to having been chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4,6

4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved
 

notmyown

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May 26, 2016
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Hi notmyown ... yes, I have read the verse in other translations.

I have also read the verse in various texts.

In all the texts, the order of the words is the same (i.e. hear then believe then sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise).

The sealing of the Holy Spirit occurs the moment a person is born again.

The insistence by brightfame52 that a person is regenerated (which is to be born again) in order to hear does not align with what is written in Scripture.
.
thank you! :)

i wondered because the word "after" does not appear in Greek. i agree with you, we are sealed the moment we are born again.

what do you think about Christ's words to Nicodemus that unless one is born again one is unable to perceive or discern the kingdom of God?

i appreciate you being willing to talk to me. ♥
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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notmyown

we are sealed the moment we are born again.
Scripture doesn't say that, the sealing follows the believing Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Now the hearing is prior to believing, and the hearing signifies having been born again !
 
Mar 23, 2016
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You have botched your reply in Post 2926:

You believe in Justification conditioned on man
nope ... God, the Author of Scripture, determines the means through which He will justify.

Romans 3:24-26 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Oh Yes, you still believe in Justification conditioned on man. Quoting verses is truly a waste of time for you, because you don't even believe them

my point is everyone Christ died for are born Justified by His death
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
The world of the saved, the Justified.

nothing but mishmash of statements made by you and my reply ... then your reply to the mishmash.

Please learn how to submit posts properly.
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
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nope

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

5. the inhabitants of the world: ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race ... John 1:10, 29 ... John 3:16 ... 2 Corinthians 5:19 ... 1 John 2:2
Once again, the world here in these are strictly the elect.
you have provided no proof for your claim as you desperately cling to your erroneous dogma.

I will hold to Scripture.
You deny scripture, in fact you are an enemy to it.
:rolleyes: that I do not hold to your erroneous dogma does mean I "deny Scripture" ... nor does it mean I am "an enemy to" Scripture.


The one who is "an enemy to" Scripture is the one who claims:

No, those He died for do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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The born again ones were by nature the children of wrath, even as those who reject God:

Ephesians 2:

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The only reason the born again ones are no longer children of wrath is because they did not suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) when someone shared the gospel with them.

It is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

If you don't believe, then you are still by nature [a child] of wrath, even as others (Eph 2:3).
Aint nobody Christ died for, and propitiated Gods wrath for, are under Gods wrath, thats just ignorance.
:rolleyes: what is "ignorance" is denial of Scripture.

When Ephesians 2:2-3 tells us that prior to being born again, the born again ones all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others, I believe God.

You have to make up some sort of subset of humanity ... your so-called "elect" ... and make wild claims that the "elect" are "born into the world justified before God".

Believe what is written in Ephesians 2:2-3. Those who claim to be "elect", if they are born again, they all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others ... and if one is not born again, they are still by nature the children of wrath.


Ephesians 2:2-3 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.




by nature, prior to being born again, the elect of God are just as worthy of wrath as the reprobated lost. So God never chose the elect because they were anyway better than the non elect, for all without exception are worthy of Gods wrath.
yes ... in agreement.




brightfame52 said:
However, notice it never said they were under Gods wrath, because the elect are never under Gods wrath
not in agreement here.

According to Romans 1:18, the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

God makes no distinction in stating that His wrath is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. You make the distinction where there is none.

How many times did you hear the gospel before you finally believed it? Each time you heard the gospel and did not believe, you suppressed the truth in unrighteousness.

And then, one day you heard the gospel ... believed the gospel ... and because the gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16), you were born again and sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory (Eph 1:13-14).

Even the born again one is chastened by God. The born again one is no longer under God's wrath ... but God chastens His children (Heb 12:3-11).


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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what do you think about Christ's words to Nicodemus that unless one is born again one is unable to perceive or discern the kingdom of God?
Are you referring to John 3:3?

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Please read further in the record. Jesus told Nicodemus:

John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

The word "receive" is translated from the Greek word lambanō which means:

"actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983/lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.
HELPS Word-studies

The record in John 3 is not the first time Nicodemus had heard Jesus. Nicodemus was a pharisee. Jesus taught in the presence of the pharisees, so Nicodemus had heard what He taught and also had seen miracles (vs 2). Note that Nicodemus came to Jesus by night ... in secret.

I'm not sure whether Nicodemus believed during the conversation in John 3, but Nicodemus did believe at some point and he came with Joseph of Arimathaea to anoint the body of Jesus after His crucifixion (John 19:39).
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brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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You have botched your reply in Post 2926:







nothing but mishmash of statements made by you and my reply ... then your reply to the mishmash.

Please learn how to submit posts properly.
.
All those verses with world in the context of Salvation, it means the world of Gods elect, all ethnic groups of the saved
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
113
renewed

what is "ignorance" is denial of Scripture.

When Ephesians 2:2-3 tells us that prior to being born again, the born again ones all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others, I believe God.

You have to make up some sort of subset of humanity ... your so-called "elect" ... and make wild claims that the "elect" are "born into the world justified before God".

Believe what is written in Ephesians 2:2-3. Those who claim to be "elect", if they are born again, they all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others ... and if one is not born again, they are still by nature the children of wrath.


Ephesians 2:2-3 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Again no one Christ died for is under Gods wrath, its impossible since Christ has propitiated God for them by His Blood
 

notmyown

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May 26, 2016
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notmyown



Scripture doesn't say that, the sealing follows the believing Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Now the hearing is prior to believing, and the hearing signifies having been born again !
yes, i ask your pardon, it's when we exercise faith. i see regeneration and the exercise of faith as kind of like flipping a light switch. there's light so quickly after it seems to be simultaneous.

so with God causing us to be born again. the exercise of faith comes hard on the heels of having one's eyes and ears opened to see the beauty and glory of the Lord Jesus. does that make sense? :)
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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renewed

Are you referring to John 3:3?

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
That verse is basically the same as 1 Cor 2:14 that the unregenerate, yet not born again, cannot know the things of God, His Kingdom which is Spiritual BTW, and His Gospel of the Kingdom, which is Spiritual, so he cannot understand them, spiritually. Why ? Because they must be spiritually discerned. The Truh of the matter is none can understand God and the ways of God [Rom 3:11] unless they have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, given Spiritual Life, 1 Cor 2:12-14

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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yes, i ask your pardon, it's when we exercise faith. i see regeneration and the exercise of faith as kind of like flipping a light switch. there's light so quickly after it seems to be simultaneous.

so with God causing us to be born again. the exercise of faith comes hard on the heels of having one's eyes and ears opened to see the beauty and glory of the Lord Jesus. does that make sense? :)
One cannot exercise faith unless they hear, and one cannot hear unless they are spiritually alive to hear. So being made alive obviously precedes hearing, which precedes faith, which is a fruit of the Spirit.