Who Justifieth the Ungodly

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Dec 21, 2020
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Christ could not have died for those who are not justified else the resurrection of Christ bare false witness.
Christ died for -everyone-. God wants everyone to be saved. Anyone can choose to believe the gospel.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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I've never understood how a dead person can choose ANYTHING.
 
Dec 21, 2020
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I've never understood how a dead person can choose ANYTHING.
Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
This did not answer the question.

How does a dead person choose anything? Do they not have to first be quickened BY THE LORD?
 
Dec 21, 2020
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This did not answer the question.

How does a dead person choose anything?
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Man, even in his fallen state, knows the difference between good and evil, and can choose to do good. It is good to choose to believe the gospel.

Do they not have to first be quickened BY THE LORD?
No.

Eph 1:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

God did that when you decided to believe the gospel.

Eph 1:13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Man, even in his fallen state, knows the difference between good and evil, and can choose to do good. It is good to choose to believe the gospel.


No.
Umm.... If we could "choose" to do good pre-conversion, what do we need Jesus for?

I mean there must be a billion verses that say we are NOT good.

So how does a DEAD person, which is exactly what Scripture calls us, choose to believe the Gospel?
 
Dec 21, 2020
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Umm.... If we could "choose" to do good pre-conversion, what do we need Jesus for?
Because we have all sinned.

I mean there must be a billion verses that say we are NOT good.
There are only ~31,000 verses in the Bible.

So how does a DEAD person, which is exactly what Scripture calls us, choose to believe the Gospel?
Calvinists overstate the definition of death.

Again:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Because we have all sinned.
Yes we have. NONE have done good.
There are only ~31,000 verses in the Bible.
Hmm... And here I thought there were billions!

Calvinists overstate the definition of death.
Well, I'm not a Calvinist, although I agree with some of their stuff, but I know what dead means.

Unless we're like Westley from the Princess Bride, and are only mostly dead...

 
Dec 21, 2020
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Yes we have. NONE have done good.


Hmm... And here I thought there were billions!



Well, I'm not a Calvinist, although I agree with some of their stuff, but I know what dead means.

Unless we're like Westley from the Princess Bride, and are only mostly dead...

Participating on theology websites is an exercise in futility.

Good luck with your almost-Calvinism.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Participating on theology websites is an exercise in futility.

Good luck with your almost-Calvinism.
Thanks!

Good luck onto you in trying to save yourself!
 
Dec 21, 2020
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Thanks!

Good luck onto you in trying to save yourself!
Jesus Christ saved me when I chose to believe the gospel (you too, even though you don't believe it..).

The Calvinist view has God saving some, but leaving others to rot in hell "for His glory." That is not love.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Jesus Christ saved me when I chose to believe the gospel (you too, even though you don't believe it..).

The Calvinist view has God saving some, but leaving others to rot in hell "for His glory." That is not love.
I guess we're continuing the futility.

Ok.

Why did YOU believe the Gospel?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Maybe for a while. I'm a glutton for punishment.


I wanted to. So did you. So can anyone.
So it was just your desire that made you believe?

What about those that believe a different gospel, or a muslim, jew, buddist, hindu, etc... They believe their way is right too?
 
Dec 21, 2020
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So it was just your desire that made you believe?
My desire made me want to learn about God. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Read the Bible. Study. Listen to teachings. A person's faith will grow.

What about those that believe a different gospel, or a muslim, jew, buddist, hindu, etc... They believe their way is right too?
Teach them about Jesus Christ. He is the truth and the light.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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My desire made me want to learn about God.
What desire? Where did that desire come from?

And most importantly, WHERE did YOUR faith come from?

Pray on that, and let the Spirit give answer.
 
Dec 21, 2020
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The desire to know if there was a God, and learn about Him.

Where did that desire come from?
From within. It may well have been God working in my life and heart. But He wants everyone to be saved. He does the same thing for anyone.

And most importantly, WHERE did YOUR faith come from?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Pray on that, and let the Spirit give answer.
Please follow your own advice.

God did not make automatons. We aren't robots. God wants people who want Him, He does not make people want Him. That would be like the guy who thinks his blow-up doll is in love with him.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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From within. It may well have been God working in my life and heart. But He wants everyone to be saved. He does the same thing for anyone.
So you used YOUR mind and strength to muster up the desire.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Yes. Our Faith is ACTIVATED by the hearing of the Word. Here is the Greek word "cometh":
1537. ek or ex
Usage: from out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards.

So the question remains. WHO put that Faith in the interior of our heart and mind?

I'll just tell ya the answer. God did!!! Praise His Holy Name!

Here's Paul telling us just that:

Ephesians 2:8-9

New King James Version

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Not all have that saving Faith. We know this because not all obey the Gospel.

It wasn't YOUR intelligence, or reasoning ability, or morality, or anything else that made you believe. It was the Faith that GOD GIFTED YOU!

Ask yourself WHY you believe. IT ALL CAME FROM GOD.
 
Dec 21, 2020
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Ephesians 2:8-9

New King James Version

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Salvation by faith is the gift of God, not the faith to believe.

Not all have that saving Faith. We know this because not all obey the Gospel.
But they could...

It wasn't YOUR intelligence, or reasoning ability, or morality, or anything else that made you believe. It was the Faith that GOD GIFTED YOU!
Again, the gift is salvation BY faith, not the faith to believe.

Ask yourself WHY you believe. IT ALL CAME FROM GOD.
What about the poor people whom God did not see fit to give faith? They're chopped liver, I guess? Too bad for them? God didn't love them enough?

I don't buy it.