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I really do not get where the CRITICS of the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity, come up with their INSISTANCE that we are teaching that there are three Gods. I AGREE WITH YOU, the Trinity is one God. Since the Computer age made it EASY to do quick thorough searches of Doctrinal Statements, I have found that the One of the MAIN CORE BELIEFS of ALL of mainline Christianity is that TRUTH that the Trinity is one God. In NO WAY does the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity mean that we believe there is more than ONE GOD.
Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Meand understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.
Luke 2:11 (ISV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Today your Savior, Christ the Lord, was born in the city of David.
THAT MEANS YAHWEH ENTERED THAT BODY HE CREATED IN THE WOMB OF MARY, WHILE REMAINING THE OMNIPRESENT GOD OF THE UNIVERSE and within that SINGULAR DEITY are the three distinct Personages or Natures known as the FATHER and the SON and the Holy Spirit.
Now, I could go on to Several other mainline Christian denominations, but I think my point by now should be WELL MADE.
Trinitarians, DEFINATELY BELIEVE IN ONLY ONE GOD.
I really do not get where the CRITICS of the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity, come up with their INSISTANCE that we are teaching that there are three Gods. I AGREE WITH YOU, the Trinity is one God. Since the Computer age made it EASY to do quick thorough searches of Doctrinal Statements, I have found that the One of the MAIN CORE BELIEFS of ALL of mainline Christianity is that TRUTH that the Trinity is one God. In NO WAY does the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity mean that we believe there is more than ONE GOD.
Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Meand understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.
Luke 2:11 (ISV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Today your Savior, Christ the Lord, was born in the city of David.
THAT MEANS YAHWEH ENTERED THAT BODY HE CREATED IN THE WOMB OF MARY, WHILE REMAINING THE OMNIPRESENT GOD OF THE UNIVERSE and within that SINGULAR DEITY are the three distinct Personages or Natures known as the FATHER and the SON and the Holy Spirit.
Now, I could go on to Several other mainline Christian denominations, but I think my point by now should be WELL MADE.
Trinitarians, DEFINATELY BELIEVE IN ONLY ONE GOD.
When He reveals Himself, yeah.
Let me ask you a question. I've shown what was believed from the beginning and when this idea of three coequal coeternal beings came into the church. How do you account for the fact that the church didn't believe what you claim for the first 400+ years of it's history.
Let me ask you a question. I've shown what was believed from the beginning and when this idea of three coequal coeternal beings came into the church. How do you account for the fact that the church didn't believe what you claim for the first 400+ years of it's history.
V
I haven't read this whole thread. In fact, I've only read the OP, and that was a result of reading another thread he commented on. It is disturbing that so many people want to make an understanding of the Trinity a priority in their faith and in their worship. It is not necessary, and the one or two bizarre posts herein where someone intimated that he/she "has the answers by God won't let me tell you" is just plain ... whatever.
Since by nature or essence the Father, Son, and Spirit are identically the same, what distinguishes the Father from the Son and each of Them from the Spirit cannot be Their one and undivided divine essence. At the level of the divine essence, each is quite literally indistinguishable as each possesses eternally and fully the identically same divine nature.
What, then, distinguishes the Father from the Son and each of Them from the Spirit? What distinguishes the Persons of the Trinity are (1) the particular roles that each has within the Trinity and in the work each carries out in the world, and, (2) the respective relationships that each has with the other divine Persons and within the creation that the triune God has made.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each fully God. They are each equally God. They each fully possess one undivided divine nature. Yet each Person of the Godhead is different in role and relationship with respect to the others. To distinguish the roles and relationships that exist in and among the triune Persons, we might say this: The Father is supreme in authority among the Persons of the Godhead, and he is responsible for devising the grand purposes and plans that take place through all of creation and redemption (see, for example, Eph 1:3, 9-11). The Son is under the Father’s authority and seeks always to do the Father’s will. Although the Son is fully God, he nonetheless takes his lead from the Father and seeks to glorify the Father in all that he does (see, for example, John 8:28-29, 42). The Spirit is under both the Father and the Son. As the Son sought to glorify the Father in all he did, the Spirit seeks to glorify the Son, to the ultimate praise of the Father (see, for example, John 16:14; 1 Cor 12:3; Phil 2:11).
Those are your answers, if you will see them. Still, it is impossible to fully comprehend an all-powerful, ever-living Triune God. We can only grasp at the edges and hope to come away with some modicum of understanding. We will not know the full and holy truth until we, too, are in glory, with Them.
Since by nature or essence the Father, Son, and Spirit are identically the same, what distinguishes the Father from the Son and each of Them from the Spirit cannot be Their one and undivided divine essence. At the level of the divine essence, each is quite literally indistinguishable as each possesses eternally and fully the identically same divine nature.
What, then, distinguishes the Father from the Son and each of Them from the Spirit? What distinguishes the Persons of the Trinity are (1) the particular roles that each has within the Trinity and in the work each carries out in the world, and, (2) the respective relationships that each has with the other divine Persons and within the creation that the triune God has made.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each fully God. They are each equally God. They each fully possess one undivided divine nature. Yet each Person of the Godhead is different in role and relationship with respect to the others. To distinguish the roles and relationships that exist in and among the triune Persons, we might say this: The Father is supreme in authority among the Persons of the Godhead, and he is responsible for devising the grand purposes and plans that take place through all of creation and redemption (see, for example, Eph 1:3, 9-11). The Son is under the Father’s authority and seeks always to do the Father’s will. Although the Son is fully God, he nonetheless takes his lead from the Father and seeks to glorify the Father in all that he does (see, for example, John 8:28-29, 42). The Spirit is under both the Father and the Son. As the Son sought to glorify the Father in all he did, the Spirit seeks to glorify the Son, to the ultimate praise of the Father (see, for example, John 16:14; 1 Cor 12:3; Phil 2:11).
Those are your answers, if you will see them. Still, it is impossible to fully comprehend an all-powerful, ever-living Triune God. We can only grasp at the edges and hope to come away with some modicum of understanding. We will not know the full and holy truth until we, too, are in glory, with Them.
All that means is some have submitted themselves to more Bible Teaching than others, plus that who are genuine Christians are at different levels of spiritual growth.
However, the ability to define one's FAITH from the heart, is NOT a matter of who has the most education; but rather who has given complete control of one's life to Jesus Christ as LORD AND MASTER. Spiritual growth in understanding parallels physical growth. Some remain spiritual children most of their lives due to a poor spiritual diet, while others grow leaps and bounds spiritually, because they genuinely have surrendered to JESUS and hunger and thirst for the understanding of HIS WORD. Am I devaluing education? NOT IN THE LEAST, I am EMPHASIZING the absolute NECESSITY to be genuinely Born Again, before you can even begin to understand deep spiritual Truths:
1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Deep spiritual truths were NEVER designed to be understood with the fleshly mind between one's ears; but rather with the spiritual mind of a genuinely born again human spirit.
However, the ability to define one's FAITH from the heart, is NOT a matter of who has the most education; but rather who has given complete control of one's life to Jesus Christ as LORD AND MASTER. Spiritual growth in understanding parallels physical growth. Some remain spiritual children most of their lives due to a poor spiritual diet, while others grow leaps and bounds spiritually, because they genuinely have surrendered to JESUS and hunger and thirst for the understanding of HIS WORD. Am I devaluing education? NOT IN THE LEAST, I am EMPHASIZING the absolute NECESSITY to be genuinely Born Again, before you can even begin to understand deep spiritual Truths:
1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Deep spiritual truths were NEVER designed to be understood with the fleshly mind between one's ears; but rather with the spiritual mind of a genuinely born again human spirit.
NO, I have told you before, that only means the FATHER is the Shotcaller within the Triune Deity.
There are NOT three Divine Spirits, but rather there is ONE DIVINE SPIRIT with three distinctly different Natures or Functions or Personages within that SINGULAR DIVINE SPIRIT.
Like I posted a couple days ago, for those who still struggle to grasp that Triune Being understanding, look at it this way:
If you were a married Police Officer with Children, you would have within you:
The Nature of a Father.
The Nature of a Husband.
The Nature of a Law Enforcement Officer.
STILL YOU WOULD ONLY BE ONE HUMAN BEING, with three distinctly different functions; YET all three, the Father, the Husband, and the Law Enforcement Officer; remain the SAME HUMAN BEING.
The FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ALSO REMAIN THE SAME DIVINE BEING, GOD.
There are NOT three Divine Spirits, but rather there is ONE DIVINE SPIRIT with three distinctly different Natures or Functions or Personages within that SINGULAR DIVINE SPIRIT.
Like I posted a couple days ago, for those who still struggle to grasp that Triune Being understanding, look at it this way:
If you were a married Police Officer with Children, you would have within you:
The Nature of a Father.
The Nature of a Husband.
The Nature of a Law Enforcement Officer.
STILL YOU WOULD ONLY BE ONE HUMAN BEING, with three distinctly different functions; YET all three, the Father, the Husband, and the Law Enforcement Officer; remain the SAME HUMAN BEING.
The FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ALSO REMAIN THE SAME DIVINE BEING, GOD.
Elin, you surprise me. THAT IS WHAT ETERNAL GOD MEANS, no beginning and no end. ONE BEING HAS TO BE THAT ETERNAL. Why? Because zero times zero will remain ZERO forever. GOD had to ALWAYS EXIST for anything to ever be CREATED BY HIM.
Let me give you another concept to open your EYES to how BIG our ETERNAL GOD actually is. HE is Omnipresent, but that does not mean that HE is ONLY Omnipresent in every place that exists, HE IS ALSO OMNIPRESENT IN EVERY SECOND OF TIME AS WE KNOW IT. GOD does not fit in a BOX that we call TIME, because HE is NOT a Created being traveling through TIME, HE IS LITERALLY THE CREATOR OF TIME AS WE KNOW IT.
HE declares the End from the Beginning because HE is Omnipresent in all TIME at the same time.
HE wrote our names in the book of life before the foundation of the Earth, because HE IS OMNIPRESENT at every conversion all at the same time.
Even if you start to grasp that REALITY just a tiny bit, you will NEVER be able to stuff GOD back in your time box again. That is literally why GOD told Moses, "Tell them I AM sent you." He is not the "I WAS, I AM, and I WILL BE"; HE IS THEE I AM BEING.
Don't misunderstand me, I agree with all that.
The issue is "doesn't make sense" as proof that a thing cannot be Biblically true.
I am merely pointing out that "doesn't make sense" shows nothing,
for no beginning "doesn't make sense" either; i.e., cannot be explained "logically,"
but it is still Biblically true.
Likewise, three persons in one God may not "make sense" either, but it is still Biblically true.
And I am still waiting for a "sensible" explanation from Butch as to how no beginning works.
The issue is "doesn't make sense" as proof that a thing cannot be Biblically true.
I am merely pointing out that "doesn't make sense" shows nothing,
for no beginning "doesn't make sense" either; i.e., cannot be explained "logically,"
but it is still Biblically true.
Likewise, three persons in one God may not "make sense" either, but it is still Biblically true.
And I am still waiting for a "sensible" explanation from Butch as to how no beginning works.
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Most people do not actually believe the Bible is the divinely inspired Word of God for our day. It's a package deal. You either believe all of it, or you do not believe it. Why do I say this? Because 1 John 5:7 is supposed to be in your Bible. For if you cannot trust that verse, what makes you think you can trust others? Do you have a time machine whereby you can confirm what is supposed to be in the Bible or not? Have you ever heard of the verse, for whatever is not of faith is sin? Well, you are supposed to believe God's Word by faith. You are not supposed to question it or pick and choose which parts you want to believe in. For faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Believe the Bible. Not some of it. All of it, my friend; This would include 1 John 5:7.
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Also, siamese twins helps to illustrate to us that somebody can have one or more mind and yet be one being. Granted, God is not exactly like siamese twins, but it should help you to understand that such things do exist in this physical universe. Also, who exactly is the Son talking to? Well, God the Son is talking to God the Father. Does God the Son need to pray for the Father to hear God the Son? Well, God the Son suppressed His Omniscience in the Incarnation. See Philippians 2:6-9 NLT (New Living Translation). However, does this mean, God the Son could not commune except by prayer? Well, the Scriptures say that Jesus did not need to pray for the Father to hear him. Read the story of the resurrection of Lazarus. Jesus prayed as an example to others.
John 11:41-42
"Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me."
"Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me."