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T
Why bother? You're not listening.
You mentioned that God the Father is the one true God, but that Jesus is also God. By extension, Holy Spirit is God's Messenger to us, but also God. And yet, there is one God. So by way of understanding that leaves us at one God but three persons. One God in three persons, blessed Trinity.
You mentioned that God the Father is the one true God, but that Jesus is also God. By extension, Holy Spirit is God's Messenger to us, but also God. And yet, there is one God. So by way of understanding that leaves us at one God but three persons. One God in three persons, blessed Trinity.
K
also this webpage explains the three persons of one essence reasonably well. better than i could.
What is the doctrine of the Trinity? | Desiring God
What is the doctrine of the Trinity? | Desiring God
Your first response to this question is going to be, "He was praying to God, obviously, who else?" So I know this sounds like an odd question, but I mean it from a completely different angle than you might have thought.
Consider this for a second here... really...
We as Christians believe (by majority, and myself included) that Jesus is God.
Yet Jesus prayed to God, and even asked God for His will instead of his own in Luke 22:42!
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." ---Luke 22:42
So basically, according to this verse, Jesus is praying to his God, and asking for his separate and higher will. Yet Jesus is supposed to be God in my book! If Jesus is God, then why is He praying to God? Is He praying to Himself? And why is he asking God for His separate and higher will, yet not his own, if he is God?
If one thing is made painfully clear from this verse, it is that Jesus believed the person he was talking to to be greater, higher, and wiser than Himself - as well as possessing a separate and higher will altogether. But I believe that Jesus is God, so how can I reconcile my belief with the verse which seems to refute it.
Is Jesus talking to himself? The more I read it the verse, the more my belief in the Trinity seems to look less and less Biblical. Note that I am not trying to refute the belief in the Trinity here, but this is the one verse in the Bible that shakes my faith in it's scriptural authenticity. Either Jesus was talking to Himself and experiencing a split personality, or He was talking to Someone else. What's going on in this verse? Who was He talking to? It's obviously not Himself because the Entity has a separate opinion (according to Jesus), yet it has to be Himself because Jesus is God and there's no one else to pray to.
Now my mind is fried...
Consider this for a second here... really...
We as Christians believe (by majority, and myself included) that Jesus is God.
Yet Jesus prayed to God, and even asked God for His will instead of his own in Luke 22:42!
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." ---Luke 22:42
So basically, according to this verse, Jesus is praying to his God, and asking for his separate and higher will. Yet Jesus is supposed to be God in my book! If Jesus is God, then why is He praying to God? Is He praying to Himself? And why is he asking God for His separate and higher will, yet not his own, if he is God?
If one thing is made painfully clear from this verse, it is that Jesus believed the person he was talking to to be greater, higher, and wiser than Himself - as well as possessing a separate and higher will altogether. But I believe that Jesus is God, so how can I reconcile my belief with the verse which seems to refute it.
Is Jesus talking to himself? The more I read it the verse, the more my belief in the Trinity seems to look less and less Biblical. Note that I am not trying to refute the belief in the Trinity here, but this is the one verse in the Bible that shakes my faith in it's scriptural authenticity. Either Jesus was talking to Himself and experiencing a split personality, or He was talking to Someone else. What's going on in this verse? Who was He talking to? It's obviously not Himself because the Entity has a separate opinion (according to Jesus), yet it has to be Himself because Jesus is God and there's no one else to pray to.
Now my mind is fried...
I am listening. I'd suggest that it's you guys that aren't listening. I gave a logical description of how there is one God the Father and at the same time how Jesus is God. Yet everyone is trying to convince me of a doctrine that is a contradiction stating that it is a mystery. If it is a mystery then how does anyone know it's true. I have given a logical explanation that agrees with Scripture and people are telling me I'm wrong, yet at the same time they can't explain to me how their believe can true. Instead, it's a mystery. Why would I believe a doctrine that I can't find in Scripture that is supposed to be a mystery over a doctrine that I can see in the Scriptures and that makes sense logically?
Nobody can prove a negative, so arguing with people who base their staunch beliefs on logical negatives (who say ''it can't be disproven, therefore it is true'') is futile. However, considering that Jesus always revered above him to a greater -- and thus characteristically different and separate -- will than his own is evidence that the trinity is misguided.
As for the trinity doctrine itself, Tertullian ('The Trinity''s first advocate) never asserted God and Jesus were exactly the same. He asserted their motivation were working towards the same goal.
As for the trinity doctrine itself, Tertullian ('The Trinity''s first advocate) never asserted God and Jesus were exactly the same. He asserted their motivation were working towards the same goal.
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have you ever played a video game, where you controlled an avatar of yourself in the game world? some give you control over the physical appearance, attributes and characteristics of the image that you control and 'play' as.
who is that character in the game world? in a sense it has its own identity separate from you, the player, but in another sense that avatar is you - it is certainly not a different player or an automated intelligence.
imagine a more sophisticated game in which a complete simulacrum of you is inserted into a gameworld, and acts with autonomy but does nothing but your will, because its will is a direct composite of your will, and all of its attributes are shared with you, because you are the pattern and originator of all its characteristics. and think again - is that character you, or a separate entity?
now imagine you are playing an even more sophisticated and immersive game environment, populated by hyper-realistic, autonomous artificial intelligences. the gamespace is one in which you play 'god' and your objective in the game is to create and give commands to a semi-autonomous 'messiah' figure that presents an example of ideal behavior, mental and spiritual attributes to the autonomous ai in the gameworld. these "ideal" characteristics are up to you, the player to imagine and implement, because your role in the virtual universe is 'god.'
who is your player character? is your player character a separate entity from you, the game player? are you greater than your player character? if your semi-autonomous character, an instantiation of your own will, can act with autonomy (within bounds defined by the character you give it, which is a perfect reflection of your own character as the 'player') and communicate with you, the 'player' -- is this 'talking to yourself' ?
anyone see where am going with this?
who is that character in the game world? in a sense it has its own identity separate from you, the player, but in another sense that avatar is you - it is certainly not a different player or an automated intelligence.
imagine a more sophisticated game in which a complete simulacrum of you is inserted into a gameworld, and acts with autonomy but does nothing but your will, because its will is a direct composite of your will, and all of its attributes are shared with you, because you are the pattern and originator of all its characteristics. and think again - is that character you, or a separate entity?
now imagine you are playing an even more sophisticated and immersive game environment, populated by hyper-realistic, autonomous artificial intelligences. the gamespace is one in which you play 'god' and your objective in the game is to create and give commands to a semi-autonomous 'messiah' figure that presents an example of ideal behavior, mental and spiritual attributes to the autonomous ai in the gameworld. these "ideal" characteristics are up to you, the player to imagine and implement, because your role in the virtual universe is 'god.'
who is your player character? is your player character a separate entity from you, the game player? are you greater than your player character? if your semi-autonomous character, an instantiation of your own will, can act with autonomy (within bounds defined by the character you give it, which is a perfect reflection of your own character as the 'player') and communicate with you, the 'player' -- is this 'talking to yourself' ?
anyone see where am going with this?
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K
For God to become flesh and veil His Glory, the Son (or whichever word you wanted to call Him, Son is easier for His incarnaion, because we are using a human vocabulary) had to take an obvious subserviant position. The creator of the universe became a baby and lived the life of a servant for our sake. He experienced every kind of temptation we did, He probably got sick etc everything, He even died in our place of judgement, and because of this obedience was brough back from death. Why is that hard to understand? Your God, your Messiah, your King...DIED..for you... took the spiritual and physical punishment of your sins. He felt hell on the cross...this is perhaps the only time you can see seperation in the trinity. The Father could not look upon the Son on the cross. Which is why He cries out My God my God why have you forsaken me? For the first time and the last ever He felt the pain of seperation from the Father for us. Then he was brought back to life and restored to the Glory He had before He came down, along with all authority in heaven and earth being given over to Him for what He has done.
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