Who was Jesus Praying to in the Bible?

[Human]

have you ever played a video game, where you controlled an avatar of yourself in the game world? some give you control over the physical appearance, attributes and characteristics of the image that you control and 'play' as.
who is that character in the game world? in a sense it has it's own identity separate from you, the player, but in another sense that avatar is you - it is certainly not a different player or an automated intelligence.

Video game characters are algorithms without autonomy. This analogy isn't a true analogy.

imagine a more sophisticated game in which a complete simulacrum of you is inserted into a gameworld, and acts with autonomy but does nothing but your will,

Then it does not act with autonomy.

because it's will is a direct composite of your will, and all of it's attributes are shared with you, because you are the pattern and originator of all it's characteristics. and think again - is that character you, or a separate entity?

That character is a fiction, first and foremost, but abstractly, it would be an extention of me. It begs the question however, ''what purpose does it serve?''

now imagine you are playing an even more sophisticated and immersive game environment, populated by hyper-realistic, autonomous artificial intelligences.

Humans cannot create human-like artificial intelligences, only algorithms and codes with predefined limitations on their autonomous ability.

the gamespace is one in which you play 'god' and your objective in the game is to create and give commands to a semi-autonomous 'messiah' figure that presents an example of ideal behavior, mental and spiritual attributes to the autonomous ai in the gameworld.

For what purpose?

these "ideal" characteristics are up to you, the player to imagine and implement, because your role in the virtual universe is 'god.'

For what purpose?

who is your player character? is your player character a separate entity from you, the game player?

Yes, it is. The game is separate, the TV is separate, the code is separate. They are my creations, but they are not autonomous; they are defined within the limitations I apply to them.

are you greater than your player character?

Yes.

if your semi-autonomous character, an instantiation of your own will, can act with autonomy (within bounds defined by the character you give it, which is a perfect reflection of your own character as the 'player') and communicate with you, the 'player' -- is this 'talking to yourself' ?

It is a bit narcissistic, really.

anyone see where am going with this

Yea. Still think it's a bad analogy though.

 

[krow]

okay who is God talking to here? When the scriptures CLEARLY state that God created man in his image and likeness..

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

He says "Let us" there appears to be a dialogue between God and whom? We also see in man a body, spirit, perhaps also a mind... obviously He isn't talking to angels otherwise we would owe them reverance. We see in revelation an angel forbids John to bow before him, he says "don't do it!"... Interesting...hmm?

 

[posthuman]

Video game characters are algorithms without autonomy. This analogy isn't a true analogy.

no, ai are algorithmic. player characters have defined limits on their behaviors, and given specific commands, act them out algorithmically to a degree dependent on the sophistication of the commands and the game design, but unless they act completely without any input from the player, they are instances of the will of the player, not purely algorithmic events.

That character is a fiction, first and foremost, but abstractly, it would be an extention of me.

an extension of you is you by extension. for example, the words you typed in reply to my post - those are you, an extension of you created by your will, to serve your will, to communicate your will, and represent you in textual form.

Humans cannot create human-like artificial intelligences, only algorithms and codes with predefined limitations on their autonomous ability.

moot, in regard to the thought-experiment i presented, and millions of computer scientists and neuroscientists and would argue ceaselessly with you over the point.

It begs the question however, ''what purpose does it serve?''
For what purpose?
For what purpose?

because that is the game.

if that is the game - if God has made a fully human instantiation of Himself in order to show us the way that we should live, and make a way for us to know Him completely, is God narcissistic?
i'll leave it to you to argue with God over the details of the universe He created and put you in.

 

[Tintin]

okay who is God talking to here? When the scriptures CLEARLY state that God created man in his image and likeness..

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

He says "Let us" there appears to be a dialogue between God and whom? We also see in man a body, spirit, perhaps also a mind... obviously He isn't talking to angels otherwise we would owe them reverance. We see in revelation an angel forbids John to bow before him, he says "don't do it!"... Interesting...hmm?

Right! One God but mentioned in plural terms.

 

[Human]

no, ai are algorithmic. player characters have defined limits on their behaviors, and given specific commands, act them out algorithmically to a degree dependent on the sophistication of the commands and the game design, but unless they act completely without any input from the player, they are instances of the will of the player, not purely algorithmic events.




an extension of you is you by extension. for example, the words you typed in reply to my post - those are you, an extension of you created by your will, to serve your will, to communicate your will, and represent you in textual form.

moot, in regard to the thought-experiment i presented, and millions of computer scientists and neuroscientists and would argue ceaselessly with you over the point.


because that is the game.

if that is the game - if God has made a fully human instantiation of Himself in order to show us the way that we should live, and make a way for us to know Him completely, is God narcissistic?
i'll leave it to you to argue with God over the details of the universe He created and put you in.

If I create a game world where my characters have limitations that I define -- characters complete with emotion, feeling, desire, suffering, need and want -- whom I command must transcend their limitations and propensity for unsatisfactoriness and ''sin'' -- sin, whose definition is arbitrarily assigned by whatever I decide it is --yet whose limitations make their transcendence impossible, then I create a messianic video game character representing kindness and compassion -- traits which I myself would consider I have not really shown in earnest by creating the absurd circumstances of my races' existence and prostrations to begin with -- who dies and whom in all must believe for no other reason than my demand for it juxtaposed with my eternally painful penalties for non compliance, I would scrap the project, go outside, apologize to the universe and meditate in the sunshine on why I ever felt the need to do such a thing to begin with.

Then I'd have a coffee.

 

[VCO]

Look, I understand what you are saying about repentance and guilt, and I agree with you 100%, VCO. My faith is not "Believism" though, but genuine repentance and remission of sin. I have not only professed Jesus, but made Him master of my life as you said. Who are you to determine my Salvation? How could you know, without ever even meeting me, say that I have not been truly saved? Do you mean to say that I am not saved, VCO? Who set you as Heavenly Judge?

Unless what you are saying that all True Christians who find the Trinity a suspicious topic are just fakers, I though my question about Trinity was quite a smart one. I just want to believe the right thing, nothing more.

☝t<><

I absolutely believe that every word of the Bible was inspired by GOD HIMSELF. HIS WORK IS PERFECT. In the original manuscripts, every Word, every Doctrine, and Every Statement was PERFECT, despite the fact that it was penned by imperfect men.

2 Timothy 3:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

2 Peter 1:20-21 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Deuteronomy 32:3-4 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I proclaim the name of the LORD: Ascribe greatness to our God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

Therefore:

I absolutely believe all truly born again Christians KNOW GOD in their hearts, and thus they KNOW that the Triune GOD is the ONLY GOD that exists.

Matthew 28:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of ☞{SINGULAR, not plural, therefore the following is ONE NAME, not three names ☞}the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

John 16:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] When the Spirit of truth comes, {into your heart} He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears. He will also declare to you what is to come.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But I fear that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your minds may be seduced from a complete and pure devotion to Christ.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For if a person comes and preaches another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or you receive a different spirit, which you had not received, or a different gospel, which you had not accepted, you put up with it splendidly!

1 John 2:19-20 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you have knowledge.

2 John 1:9-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Anyone who does not remain in Christ’s teaching but goes beyond it, does not have God. The one who remains in that teaching, this one has both the Father and the Son.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your home, and don’t say, “Welcome,” to him;
[SUP]11 [/SUP] for the one who says, “Welcome,” to him shares in his evil works.

Colossians 2:8-10 (NKJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Acts 5:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the proceeds from the field?
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Wasn’t it yours while you possessed it? And after it was sold, wasn’t it at your disposal? Why is it that you planned this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God!”

Colossians 1:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.

Romans 1:20-22 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, {The SON is the Creator, WHOM they did not Glorify as GOD.} nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Professing to be wise, they became fools,

1 John 2:23 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.




NO, I do not believe that there are any true Christians who Deny the Deity of Jesus Christ.

 

[p_rehbein]

God the Father: God OF man
(God desiring a personal relationship with His children)

God the Son: God AS man
(God providing the way to have a personal relationship with His children)

God the Holy Spirit: God IN man
(God now having a personal relationship with His people.....indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit)


And, yet, sadly, people are confused................beats me.

 

[Elin]

You still haven't shown me where Scripture says there is one being that consists of three persons.

There's no need for you to post stuff like this.

You haven't reckoned with "stuff like this" which is pure Scripture.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are bracketed together as the triune name of the single God.
a) Note in Mt 28:13 that Jesus said this was the name (singular) of the one God with whom we enter into relationship.

b) Paul used all three interchangeably in 1Co 12:4-6,
they are linked together in prayer for divine blessing in 2Co 13:14, and
they are linked in pronouncement of divine blessing in Rev 1:4-5.

I have heard the arguments of men before. What I stated in my original post acknowledges that Jesus is God (Deity). What it denies is the logical contradiction that is presented by many today that there is
one being that consists of three persons.
You won't find that anywhere in the Scriptures. It comes from the mind of man.

I find three personal divine agents in the Scriptures.

The NT shows the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be persons.
It refers to them with the personal pronouns he, him, his, with personal titles and with personal functions.
The NT shows the Holy Spirit acting as a person: speaking (Ac 8:29), deciding (Ac 15:28), forbidding (Ac 16:7), testifying (Ac 5:32), sending out missionaries (Ac 13:14), interceding (Ro 8:26-27).

And I find one God in the Scriptures.

You do the math.

 

[Butch5]

okay who is God talking to here? When the scriptures CLEARLY state that God created man in his image and likeness..

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

He says "Let us" there appears to be a dialogue between God and whom? We also see in man a body, spirit, perhaps also a mind... obviously He isn't talking to angels otherwise we would owe them reverance. We see in revelation an angel forbids John to bow before him, he says "don't do it!"... Interesting...hmm?

Are you familiar with the Hebrew "Majestic Plural"?

 

[Butch5]

You haven't reckoned with "stuff like this" which is pure Scripture.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are bracketed together as the triune name of the single God.
a) Note in Mt 28:13 that Jesus said this was the name (singular) of the one God with whom we enter into relationship.

b) Paul used all three interchangeably in 1Co 12:4-6,
they are linked together in prayer for divine blessing in 2Co 13:14, and
they are linked in pronouncement of divine blessing in Rev 1:4-5.


I find three personal divine agents in the Scriptures.

The NT shows the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be persons.
It refers to them with the personal pronouns he, him, his, with personal titles and with personal functions.
The NT shows the Holy Spirit acting as a person: speaking (Ac 8:29), deciding (Ac 15:28), forbidding (Ac 16:7), testifying (Ac 5:32), sending out missionaries (Ac 13:14), interceding (Ro 8:26-27).

And I find one God in the Scriptures.

You do the math.

It's not math, it's English. The problem is the way the word God is defined. Your argument isn't addressing the issue. It's not one God that is the problem, it's one being, that consists of three persons. There is one God, one substance (for lack of a better word) that is Deity and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all of this substance.

 

[Butch5]

The question that really should be asked is why doesn't the church today believe the same thing about the Trinity that The apostles and early church believed? Why does the church today believe something different?

 

[Tintin]

I'm not sure what definition people mean when they say God is 'one being' that could mean almost anything (and I haven't heard it before). All I know is that there is one God and He is three persons. Not three gods. One God. So, if I haven't totally confused myself, you believe the same. Am I right?

 

[Sirk]

have you ever played a video game, where you controlled an avatar of yourself in the game world? some give you control over the physical appearance, attributes and characteristics of the image that you control and 'play' as.
who is that character in the game world? in a sense it has its own identity separate from you, the player, but in another sense that avatar is you - it is certainly not a different player or an automated intelligence.

imagine a more sophisticated game in which a complete simulacrum of you is inserted into a gameworld, and acts with autonomy but does nothing but your will, because its will is a direct composite of your will, and all of its attributes are shared with you, because you are the pattern and originator of all its characteristics. and think again - is that character you, or a separate entity?

now imagine you are playing an even more sophisticated and immersive game environment, populated by hyper-realistic, autonomous artificial intelligences. the gamespace is one in which you play 'god' and your objective in the game is to create and give commands to a semi-autonomous 'messiah' figure that presents an example of ideal behavior, mental and spiritual attributes to the autonomous ai in the gameworld. these "ideal" characteristics are up to you, the player to imagine and implement, because your role in the virtual universe is 'god.'

who is your player character? is your player character a separate entity from you, the game player? are you greater than your player character? if your semi-autonomous character, an instantiation of your own will, can act with autonomy (within bounds defined by the character you give it, which is a perfect reflection of your own character as the 'player') and communicate with you, the 'player' -- is this 'talking to yourself' ?

anyone see where am going with this?

I do and it is incredibly insightful....

 

[VCO]

If one does not believe in the Holy Trinity, then One denies God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.........how then does one profess to be a Christian...........oh, no wait.............you don't do you........

☝t<><

Have you also noticed how, in the last couple decades there is an ever increasing FALLING AWAY from the Doctrines and Teachings that ALMOST EVERYONE believed in when we were growing up?


More and more are denying the Deity of Jesus Christ.


More and more are denying the reality of Hell.


More and more are denying that the entire Bible was ALL INSPIRED BY GOD.


More and more question that Mary really was a virgin.


More and more think that only acknowledging Who Jesus is, makes you a Christian.


More and more believe in Evolution, instead of Creation.


More and more deny the reality of Noah's Flood.


2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

 

[posthuman]

If I create a world. . .

Then I'd have a coffee.

thank God He saw fit in His mercy to create coffee

 

[Human]

thank God He saw fit in His mercy to create coffee

Touché :'D

 

[posthuman]

Touché :'D

what with our usernames, we should go have a coffee together haha!


you're right it's not a perfect analogy by far, and i probably do play too many video games, but i think there's something to what i was saying.

 

[Human]

what with our usernames, we should go have a coffee together haha!

We would talk about evolution from human to posthuman, unless evolution would cause a latté problems?

 

[tribesman]

Psalms 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

God prayed to God. That's what scripture says. It also says:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

 

[krow]

The question that really should be asked is why doesn't the church today believe the same thing about the Trinity that The apostles and early church believed? Why does the church today believe something different?

They don't unless you are referring to those who believed Jesus wasn't divine and such before they had all the councils... I re-read one of your earlier posts and your saying the same thing we are... "There is one God, one substance (for lack of a better word) that is Deity and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all of this substance." is what you wrote above. It's exactly what I've been saying... Jesus owns every single name the Father has etc... because He is full deity, just as the Holy Spirit is as well. There is just a hierarchy and differing function for each in salvation, and creation.