Whom He will He hardeneth !

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SoliDeoGloria92

Guest
#61
it makes SeaBass a judge of God -- does that not bother you mate?

what is an higher authority, mankind's futile thoughts, or the Maker of heaven & earth? do we think up what we consider God's character ought to be, and then chastise Him if He acts out? or do we seek to know Him by His revealed word and by the testimony of His Spirit and His prophets?

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
(Romans 9:14-15)


most people pretend Romans 9 isn't in the bible, because you can't find a free will perspective in there, even with spiritual gymnastics it's really hardwork.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#62
That's not what the bible says though is it.....
Ex 5:2 "And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go."

Ex 8:15 "But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said."

1 Sam 6:6 "Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?"
 
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#63
it makes SeaBass a judge of God -- does that not bother you mate?

what is an higher authority, mankind's futile thoughts, or the Maker of heaven & earth? do we think up what we consider God's character ought to be, and then chastise Him if He acts out? or do we seek to know Him by His revealed word and by the testimony of His Spirit and His prophets?

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
(Romans 9:14-15)


If man has no free will but can only do what God makes him do then the sins committed are committed by God since man can only do what God forces him to do. Again, it was God's will that Pharaoh let Israel go into the wilderness to worship Him. So if God forced Pharaoh to harden his heart and not let Israel go, then God was going against His own will.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#64
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
"Both" is not possible. It makes a sinner out of God.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#65
most people pretend Romans 9 isn't in the bible, because you can't find a free will perspective in there, even with spiritual gymnastics it's really hardwork.
In Rom 9 Paul expresses sorrow over the fact fleshly Jews were lost having been cast off by God. The fleshly Jews went from elect to non-elect for they used their free will in rejecting to obey God 1 Thess 2:15,16.
 
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SoliDeoGloria92

Guest
#66
Thats the worst Ive ever heard anyone try to make up an idea and put it into romans 9.
 
Jan 21, 2013
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#68
"Both" is not possible. It makes a sinner out of God.
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
 
Feb 21, 2014
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#69
We need to rely upon God's wondrous grace, and not get fixated with supposed "rights", etc. God in His wonder and grace has sent the Savior: this ought to be good enough for us, and is marvelous for the believer.
 
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SoliDeoGloria92

Guest
#70
More times that you've changed your socks my friends that been said, I'm not trying to make it say something like you. Look if that what you get from it cool. Have a good day. The bible doesn't say what your saying it does. Peace
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#71
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
"Both" is not possible. It makes a sinner out of God.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
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#72
More times that you've changed your socks my friends that been said, I'm not trying to make it say something like you. Look if that what you get from it cool. Have a good day. The bible doesn't say what your saying it does. Peace
What is Romans 9 about?
 
Jan 21, 2013
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#73
"Both" is not possible. It makes a sinner out of God.
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#74
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
"Both" is not possible. It makes a sinner out of God.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#75
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
You say this over and over again, but it doesn't make it true.

I don't agree with your premise.

1. I don't think you are viewing the whole situation with Pharaoh correctly.

Yes in those verses God hardened Pharoah's heart. However, before that God gave him multiple opportunities to repent and turn from his sin. He had Moses deliver the message to Pharoah to "Let my people go." However it was Pharoah's pride and selfishness that kept him blinded.

Yes God could have opened Pharoah's eyes through His mercy and yes God could have changed Pharoah's heart. However, it is NOT required of God to save sinners. He does it out of His mercy and grace. Pharoah CHOOSE to sin. God did not make him a sinner. He made him responsible and pay fully for his sins.

there is a difference. I'm not sure you see it though.

It goes back to the debate of free will and whether we have a choice to sin or follow the path of righteousness. I believe God gives us a choice. He tests us and gives us a way to choose the path of righteousness.

However, as we learn we often fail those test. When we fail, we fall into sin and DESERVE PUNISHMENT. However, God with His mercy and grace can save us and wash us clean. He then teaches what we should have done and then eventually we have another test.

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

[h=3]James 1:12-14[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3][/h][SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#76
You say this over and over again, but it doesn't make it true.

I don't agree with your premise.

1. I don't think you are viewing the whole situation with Pharaoh correctly.

Yes in those verses God hardened Pharoah's heart. However, before that God gave him multiple opportunities to repent and turn from his sin. He had Moses deliver the message to Pharoah to "Let my people go." However it was Pharoah's pride and selfishness that kept him blinded.
Yes.

Now the question is: how does God harden hearts?

Does God harden hearts against the will of people making them to sin against their will? No, this is not in God's nature to do this. God hardens hearts by putting men in positions to have to choose. In Pharaoh's case, God created the circumstance where Pharaoh had to choose to obey and let the people go or disobey and not let the people go. Pharaoh of his own free will chose to harden his own heart and not let the people go, but since God created the circumstance, it is that sense God is said to harden Pharaoh's heart. If God had not created the circumstance then Pharaoh would not have been put in a position to have to choose to let the people go or not.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#77
I don't agree with that interpretation either. God harden Pharoah's heart because he had already made the decision NOT to let them go.

the hardening is when you no longer even consider the possibility of other option. I see this happening to people every day through anger and pride and fear. they allow those emotions to take over their heart. they build up a wall so they can not have compassion or love for other people.

What is a hardened heart?

it is a heart that is selfish, that is like stone. It is a heart that does not understand love, at least not the type of love God teaches us. the kind of love that flows like living waters from a heart that has been cleansed by God's grace and mercy.

A hardened heart is a darkened heart filled with baser emotions, blinded by anger, greed, selfishness, fear, pride. A harden heart is filled with lies and deceptions.

I believe when it says God hardened Pharoah's heart it means He took His light and mercy from him and allowed him to remain in the dark loneliness his decisions created.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#78
Ex 8:15 "But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said."

Pharaoh hardened his own heart when put in a position to have to choose.
 
Jan 21, 2013
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#79
"Both" is not possible. It makes a sinner out of God.
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !