Why… we are not… and will not… go through the Tribulation.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Aug 27, 2023
823
211
43
With that said… You stated the 70 weeks of Daniel are over. But within the 70 weeks you have the abomination of desolation (better translated desolator)

When did this happen?
26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,159
2,174
113
Interesting assessment, but even if if the events spoken of would continue to happen, how would the generation being spoken to at the time see all the events?

A generation signifies a time.
Numbers 32:13
And the Lord’S anger was kindled against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the Lord was consumed.

I’m not saying a generation is 40 years, heck it could be 120 years, but it must be defined by some amount of years.
Following Matthew 24 first before looking at its cross-references Mark 13 and Luke 21.
Jesus points out the stones of the temple and mentions they will be thrown down, and the disciples ask, "when will these things happen? and what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?"
And Jesus answers exampling events that he says, "all these are the beginning of birth pains," false Christs, wars and rumors of wars, famine and earthquakes, "These things must happen, but the end is still to come." Then follows the context of the gospel of the kingdom being preached to all the world as a testimony to all nations, "and then the end will come."
And Matthew 24: 15 begins saying, "So...when you see standing in the holy place.... and there is a time (marker? clue? the word escapes me, time discriptive? mebbe) at v. 21 For at that time there will be great tribulation...and v. 22 "those days..." and again v. 23 "At that time..."
And subsequently v. 29, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...."
and v. 20 "At that time, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven (or sky)..." and the gathering of the elect is described.

Then we come to the lesson of the fig tree that likewise, "when you see all these things, you will know He (or the end) is near (at the door)... this generation (that sees all these things?) will not pass away until all these things have happened. This (in blue) is how I have looked at it up to this point.

However, I do wonder if "this generation" speaks to "this age" (does any certain 'age' necessarily have a specific span of a number of years?) considering the disciples included "and the end of the age" within their inquiry, I would think that Jesus must've at least touched upon it.


 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
how would you say this fits into that ?

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you think the “ mark “ in thier foreheads has anything to do with thier belief in Christ and acceptance of the gospel ? Or refusal to accept him ?

what I mean is if it’s true th at those who believe the gospel and are baptized will be saved and those who refuse to believe shall be damned …….. doesn’t tbat give revelation a whole new look ?
The idea that the mark is not physical is something I never considered because scripture references a future wherein the inability to buy or sell will require it. It would seem likely that proof such as a mark would be mandatory for a person to be able to participate in the economy.

Countries have been for sometime developing numbering systems for their citizens as a means of control. And the digital cashless society is soon to be a reality around the world. Once fully up and running these systems could very well be manipulated to enforce peoples alliance with the Antichrist. A great resource for continuing updates regarding these systems, etc. going on around the world is https://www.endtime.com/
and https://watch.endtime.com/

Rev 13:16-17
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,148
5,722
113
The idea that the mark is not physical is something I never considered because scripture references a future wherein the inability to buy or sell will require it. It would seem likely that proof such as a mark would be mandatory for a person to be able to participate in the economy.

Countries have been for sometime developing numbering systems for their citizens as a means of control. And the digital cashless society is soon to be a reality around the world. Once fully up and running these systems could very well be manipulated to enforce peoples alliance with the Antichrist. A great resource for continuing updates regarding these systems, etc. going on around the world is https://www.endtime.com/
and https://watch.endtime.com/

Rev 13:16-17
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
“The idea that the mark is not physical is something I never considered because scripture references a future wherein the inability to buy or sell will require it. It would seem likely that proof such as a mark would be mandatory for a person to be able to participate in the economy.”

yes I think the nature of what I’m saying needs to look at revelation through the Bible rether than as if it’s independent from it think of the nature of the book

Jesus isn’t a literal lamb who was slain with seven eyes and seven horns but the description of the lamb is a narrative of the gospel and what he did

“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. ( see his description is explaining the gospel and the Holy Ghost being sent into the world )

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:6, 9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see my point is the seven eyes and horns represent something else totally unconnected to the literal description of a lamb it’s describing how the gospel saves people through the shed blood of Gods lamb Jesus Christ.

The whole book is like this for instance

there is no giant red beast with seven heads ….that description represents something else there is no beautiful woman clothes with the sun she represents Jerusalems plight with the lord , there is no dragon with seven heads the description represents Satan and his fallen angels ect

this os my thinking which I was trying to convey the mark also is like that nothing in the book is literal it all represents other things from scripture but again brother I’m o my trying to explain my own thoughts and what I was meaning

see if this is true

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then it has to be related to those who worship the beast and aren’t saved in the revelation narrative. Because the key and foundation of salvstion is what Jesus said right there belief is the gospel and baptism into his body.

The buting and selling is not literal it’s within the narrative showing thoer people aren’t going to be accepted in the world system

“If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:19‬ ‭

a ot being able to buy and sell is representative of the worlds system in my thinking

again thogh dear brother I’m only trying to explain what I meant before .

things like this

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Represent scripture and what happened

“So then after the Lord ( who was born a man child ) had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a then like the lambs description talking about gods spirits in the earth seven eyes and horns ? That’s this the lamb appearing in the throne and sending the holy spirit

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. ( lamb slain seven eyes horns seven sprite of Gid sent into earth )

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33, 36‬ ‭KJV‬‬


See revelation is different from every other book in scripture and connects to all of scripture in its own way it’s different because John enters heaven seeing a spiritual perspective no one ever had seen before and spoken of it’s a cosmic firirstive book that relies on knowledge of the rest of scripture to inderersnd its narrative and purpose of giving hope to those on tribulation and trials on eerth
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
1,933
1,119
113
“The idea that the mark is not physical is something I never considered because scripture references a future wherein the inability to buy or sell will require it. It would seem likely that proof such as a mark would be mandatory for a person to be able to participate in the economy.”

yes I think the nature of what I’m saying needs to look at revelation through the Bible rether than as if it’s independent from it think of the nature of the book

Jesus isn’t a literal lamb who was slain with seven eyes and seven horns but the description of the lamb is a narrative of the gospel and what he did

“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. ( see his description is explaining the gospel and the Holy Ghost being sent into the world )

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:6, 9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see my point is the seven eyes and horns represent something else totally unconnected to the literal description of a lamb it’s describing how the gospel saves people through the shed blood of Gods lamb Jesus Christ.

The whole book is like this for instance

there is no giant red beast with seven heads ….that description represents something else there is no beautiful woman clothes with the sun she represents Jerusalems plight with the lord , there is no dragon with seven heads the description represents Satan and his fallen angels ect

this os my thinking which I was trying to convey the mark also is like that nothing in the book is literal it all represents other things from scripture but again brother I’m o my trying to explain my own thoughts and what I was meaning

see if this is true

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then it has to be related to those who worship the beast and aren’t saved in the revelation narrative. Because the key and foundation of salvstion is what Jesus said right there belief is the gospel and baptism into his body.

The buting and selling is not literal it’s within the narrative showing thoer people aren’t going to be accepted in the world system

“If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:19‬ ‭

a ot being able to buy and sell is representative of the worlds system in my thinking

again thogh dear brother I’m only trying to explain what I meant before .

things like this

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Represent scripture and what happened

“So then after the Lord ( who was born a man child ) had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a then like the lambs description talking about gods spirits in the earth seven eyes and horns ? That’s this the lamb appearing in the throne and sending the holy spirit

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. ( lamb slain seven eyes horns seven sprite of Gid sent into earth )

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33, 36‬ ‭KJV‬‬


See revelation is different from every other book in scripture and connects to all of scripture in its own way it’s different because John enters heaven seeing a spiritual perspective no one ever had seen before and spoken of it’s a cosmic firirstive book that relies on knowledge of the rest of scripture to inderersnd its narrative and purpose of giving hope to those on tribulation and trials on eerth

So does this mean that when all the nations are under one government and they enforce a mark by which you can only buy and sell, then you'll take this mark because the one in the Bible is just symbolic? I already asked some other people who just see it as symbolic and they all either didn't answer or got very defensive (I have no idea why).


🏄🏻‍♀️
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,834
4,318
113
mywebsite.us
With that said… You stated the 70 weeks of Daniel are over. But within the 70 weeks you have the abomination of desolation (better translated desolator)

When did this happen?
26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The 'overspreading of abominations' in Daniel 9:27 is not talking about the AoD.

Please read:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Time_Line.html
 
Aug 27, 2023
823
211
43
Following Matthew 24 first before looking at its cross-references Mark 13 and Luke 21.
Jesus points out the stones of the temple and mentions they will be thrown down, and the disciples ask, "when will these things happen? and what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?"
And Jesus answers exampling events that he says, "all these are the beginning of birth pains," false Christs, wars and rumors of wars, famine and earthquakes, "These things must happen, but the end is still to come." Then follows the context of the gospel of the kingdom being preached to all the world as a testimony to all nations, "and then the end will come."
And Matthew 24: 15 begins saying, "So...when you see standing in the holy place.... and there is a time (marker? clue? the word escapes me, time discriptive? mebbe) at v. 21 For at that time there will be great tribulation...and v. 22 "those days..." and again v. 23 "At that time..."
And subsequently v. 29, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...."
and v. 20 "At that time, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven (or sky)..." and the gathering of the elect is described.

Then we come to the lesson of the fig tree that likewise, "when you see all these things, you will know He (or the end) is near (at the door)... this generation (that sees all these things?) will not pass away until all these things have happened. This (in blue) is how I have looked at it up to this point.

However, I do wonder if "this generation" speaks to "this age" (does any certain 'age' necessarily have a specific span of a number of years?) considering the disciples included "and the end of the age" within their inquiry, I would think that Jesus must've at least touched upon it.
The 'overspreading of abominations' in Daniel 9:27 is not talking about the AoD.

Please read:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Time_Line.html
Daniel 9:27
27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

This isn't talking about the AOD?

Matthew 24:14
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Spoken of by Daniel the prophet… So it’s just some kind of coincidence….
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,159
2,174
113
Daniel 9:27
27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

This isn't talking about the AOD?

Matthew 24:14
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Spoken of by Daniel the prophet… So it’s just some kind of coincidence….
In my view, the beginning of the verse refers to Jesus, whose crucifixion tears the veil of the temple in two and thereby puts a stop to sacrifice and grain offerng;
and on the wing of abominations (abominations "fly" in to alight onto the earth) will come one who makes desolate (destruction of the temple the 70th year after the birth of Christ who died approximately 33ad at which time sacrifices ceased) but that (the destruction of the temple) is only the beginning of abominations and desolations) even until a complete destruction (how long might that actually be? until a complete destruction?) , one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." The is a destruction decreed for "the one who makes desolate." Does this necessitate only "one" or might anyone that qualifies as 'the one who makes desolate' be decreed for this destruction?
It seems to me that successive abominations have emerged, riding on the wing of the beast. Upward towards 700 years later there emerged one many looks upon as a prophet that causes those that follow him to follow the beast and erect a temple for him (very near to standing on the site of the holy place if not exactly in what was the holy place even though it the exact spot cannot be conclusively verified because the temple is completely destroyed....

I'm not sure the temple needs to be rebuilt for us to "see the aod standing in the holy place" especially considering that many are of the opinion that this "rebuilt' temple will be a sham anyway... there is already a 'sham' temple standing there...
 
Aug 27, 2023
823
211
43
In my view, the beginning of the verse refers to Jesus, whose crucifixion tears the veil of the temple in two and thereby puts a stop to sacrifice and grain offerng;
and on the wing of abominations (abominations "fly" in to alight onto the earth) will come one who makes desolate (destruction of the temple the 70th year after the birth of Christ who died approximately 33ad at which time sacrifices ceased) but that (the destruction of the temple) is only the beginning of abominations and desolations) even until a complete destruction (how long might that actually be? until a complete destruction?) , one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." The is a destruction decreed for "the one who makes desolate." Does this necessitate only "one" or might anyone that qualifies as 'the one who makes desolate' be decreed for this destruction?
It seems to me that successive abominations have emerged, riding on the wing of the beast. Upward towards 700 years later there emerged one many looks upon as a prophet that causes those that follow him to follow the beast and erect a temple for him (very near to standing on the site of the holy place if not exactly in what was the holy place even though it the exact spot cannot be conclusively verified because the temple is completely destroyed....

I'm not sure the temple needs to be rebuilt for us to "see the aod standing in the holy place" especially considering that many are of the opinion that this "rebuilt' temple will be a sham anyway... there is already a 'sham' temple standing there...
Who do you believe the “prince” is? And his people?
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,834
4,318
113
mywebsite.us
Daniel 9:27
27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

This isn't talking about the AOD? { No, it is not. }

Matthew 24:14
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Spoken of by Daniel the prophet… So it’s just some kind of coincidence….
For starters, you need a better bible version. I suggest the KJV.

Daniel 9:

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

'he' x 3 = the same person

'shall confirm the covenant' - not 'make a firm covenant'

He is confirming an already existing covenant - not making a [new] covenant.

For the verses in Daniel 11 & 12:

'the abomination' (singular) that [ itself ] "maketh desolate"

For the verse in Daniel 9:

"because of the 'proliferation and extent' of abominations" (plural) - 'he' ( a person ) - shall make it desolate
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,159
2,174
113
Who do you believe the “prince” is? And his people?
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
the spirit ruling over, though I'm not confident of that terminology, a certain people, such as those like the prince of Persia and michael 'your' prince written of Israel's archangel. Maybe a better word is the spirit that "presides" there.
 
Aug 27, 2023
823
211
43
For starters, you need a better bible version. I suggest the KJV.

Daniel 9:

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

'he' x 3 = the same person

'shall confirm the covenant' - not 'make a firm covenant'

He is confirming an already existing covenant - not making a [new] covenant.

For the verses in Daniel 11 & 12:

'the abomination' (singular) that [ itself ] "maketh desolate"

For the verse in Daniel 9:

"because of the 'proliferation and extent' of abominations" (plural) - 'he' ( a person ) - shall make it desolate
I use a KJ… not sure what happened there..
How long was the tribulation before Christ shortened it?