Why… we are not… and will not… go through the Tribulation.

[GaryA]

There is no "valid scriptural description of the end of the great tribulation" just like there isn't a direct scriptural reference to the event itself described in Matt, Luke, and Mark as being the 70 AD fall of Jerusalem; but the historical record recorded primarily by Josephus clearly is that event. You seem to accept the one but not the other. If you accept what's described in the scriptures of Matthew, Luke, and Mark as the 70 AD fall of Jerusalem which is NOT specifically defined as such in the scriptures, then you should logically look for the answer to its end likewise, which is not in the scriptures, but also can be found in the Josephus historical record. The 70 AD fall of Jerusalem did end; if that was the great tribulation of Matthew, Luke, and Mark, which it is, then it ended. How did it not? That conclusion makes no sense.

With regard to your first statement - of course there is - Matthew 24:29 - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" - the days of the 'tribulation' that Jesus referred to in verse 21. The same thing is seen in the Mark account.

We know from history that Matthew 24:15-22 / Mark 13:14-20 / Luke 21:20-24 is referring to the events of circa 70 A.D. - and marks the beginning of the 'great tribulation' that Jesus referred to as stated in Matthew 24:21. (with parallel statements in Mark and Luke)

My focus is not on the fall of Jerusalem; rather, it is on the 'great tribulation' that Jesus referred to.

What scripture says about the end of that [very same] 'great tribulation' is found in Matthew 24:29 / Mark 13:24-25 / Luke 21:25-26.

Then - next - the Second Coming - in Matthew 24:30 / Mark 13:26 / Luke 21:27.

Then - next - the Rapture - in Matthew 24:31 / Mark 13:27 - and, a timing related reference in Luke 21:28.

Please see:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

 

[Truthnightmare]

With regard to your first statement - of course there is - Matthew 24:29 - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" - the days of the 'tribulation' that Jesus referred to in verse 21. The same thing is seen in the Mark account.

We know from history that Matthew 24:15-22 / Mark 13:14-20 / Luke 21:20-24 is referring to the events of circa 70 A.D. - and marks the beginning of the 'great tribulation' that Jesus referred to as stated in Matthew 24:21. (with parallel statements in Mark and Luke)

My focus is not on the fall of Jerusalem; rather, it is on the 'great tribulation' that Jesus referred to.

What scripture says about the end of that [very same] 'great tribulation' is found in Matthew 24:29 / Mark 13:24-25 / Luke 21:25-26.

Then - next - the Second Coming - in Matthew 24:30 / Mark 13:26 / Luke 21:27.

Then - next - the Rapture - in Matthew 24:31 / Mark 13:27 - and, a timing related reference in Luke 21:28.

Please see:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

Wassup Gary…
I disagree but Im still interested in your take.

. Mark 13:14-20 / Luke 21:20-24 is referring to the events of circa 70 A.D.

Mark 13
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Daniel 12
Daniel 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifices shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, There shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days

How did this happen circa 70AD?

 

[GaryA]

Wassup Gary…
I disagree but Im still interested in your take.



Mark 13
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Daniel 12
Daniel 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifices shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, There shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days

How did this happen circa 70AD?

Read all of my posts (and follow the links in [some of] those posts) on this page of this thread starting with this post:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-tribulation.210481/page-6#post-5063443

 

[GaryA]

(Then come back and ask whatever questions all of that information does not answer...)

Some of it is repetitive; however, it should give you a foundation of understanding for whatever else I may post later in answer to your question(s).

 

[GaryA]

Wassup Gary…
I disagree but Im still interested in your take.



Mark 13
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Daniel 12
Daniel 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifices shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, There shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days

How did this happen circa 70AD?

The short answer:

The AoD is an event that had already happened before the 70 A.D. time frame - did not happen in that time frame - and, is not a future occurance.

The Daniel verse is referring to the time frame of the actual AoD in the past.

The other past posts I pointed you to should help you understand why this is true.

 

[Truthnightmare]

The short answer:

The AoD is an event that had already happened before the 70 A.D. time frame - did not happen in that time frame - and, is not a future occurance.

The Daniel verse is referring to the time frame of the actual AoD in the past.

The other past posts I pointed you to should help you understand why this is true.

Leaves much to be desired…Do you have a year or perhaps a century when the AOD happened?

 

[GaryA]

Did you not even follow the link I gave you in post #123 above that you 'liked'? The answer to your question is in that post.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Did you not even follow the link I gave you in post #123 above that you 'liked'? The answer to your question is in that post.

Yes… I’m following it… But I’m also evaluating the people who responded to you. For some of them might have already proven your wrong.. And the be straight, it looks like your dead wrong.

Everything mentioned in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 happen in a timeline of a generation.

Notice:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled

So now you must show that the events mentioned have happened

The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

When did this happen?

Not to mention…

In Daniel 9:27 continues thousands of years later, following the period we call the gap, or Church age. This is the one week of years God set aside to draw His people, called the Jews, back to himself. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Halfway into the period, three and a half years, the Antichrist reveals his true colors, and Satan then turns on the Jews. He stops sacrifices and oblations, and brings the abomination to the temple. Then hatred, wrath and killing will be poured out on the nation of Israel. We will discuss each of these points later, as we look at various biblical passages in both the Old and New Testaments.

The thing that makes these four verses, Daniel 9:24-27 so important to Christians, and Bible prophecy, is that it identifies the time of the age of Christ's church on earth. The two important things to remember here is that the sacrifices and the oblation will cease, this is the communion, and the Passover feast offerings, and that is because the entire world, including Christians, will believe that Christ has returned to earth. They will believe that the Antichrist is the Messiah.

If you believe the above events have happened… you are way off… sorry.

 

[GaryA]

occurance

occurrence

 

[GaryA]

Everything mentioned in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 happen in a timeline of a generation.

No. It happens over a long span of time. (~2000 years)

Notice:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled

You need to dig deep enough to realize and understand that what the Greek is actually saying is 'begin to be fulfilled'.

The prophecy is not finished before a generation passes; rather it begins before a generation passes.

The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

When did this happen?

It has not happened yet - it is future.

If it - as you say - all happened in the time span of a generation - would it not have all happened during 'This generation'? (that Jesus was speaking to)

In Daniel 9:27 continues thousands of years later, following the period we call the gap, or Church age. This is the one week of years God set aside to draw His people, called the Jews, back to himself. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Halfway into the period, three and a half years, the Antichrist reveals his true colors, and Satan then turns on the Jews. He stops sacrifices and oblations, and brings the abomination to the temple. Then hatred, wrath and killing will be poured out on the nation of Israel. We will discuss each of these points later, as we look at various biblical passages in both the Old and New Testaments.

The thing that makes these four verses, Daniel 9:24-27 so important to Christians, and Bible prophecy, is that it identifies the time of the age of Christ's church on earth. The two important things to remember here is that the sacrifices and the oblation will cease, this is the communion, and the Passover feast offerings, and that is because the entire world, including Christians, will believe that Christ has returned to earth. They will believe that the Antichrist is the Messiah.

Everything you said here - 100% of it - is in error.

Daniel 9:24-27 is not about a future 'Antichrist' making and then breaking a deal with Israel.

There will be no 7-year treaty between any antichrist and Israel (as being in accordance with bible prophecy).

There is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period.

The 70 weeks of Daniel are 100% fulfilled.

Please read:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

 

[Truthnightmare]

No. It happens over a long span of time. (~2000 years)


You need to dig deep enough to realize and understand that what the Greek is actually saying is 'begin to be fulfilled'.

The prophecy is not finished before a generation passes; rather it begins before a generation passes.


It has not happened yet - it is future.

If it - as you say - all happened in the time span of a generation - would it not have all happened during 'This generation'? (that Jesus was speaking to)


Everything you said here - 100% of it - is in error.

Daniel 9:24-27 is not about a future 'Antichrist' making and then breaking a deal with Israel.

There will be no 7-year treaty between any antichrist and Israel (as being in accordance with bible prophecy).

There is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period.

The 70 weeks of Daniel are 100% fulfilled.

Please read:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

No… the generation Jesus was speaking to are dead…
And none of these things have happened…

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[GaryA]

You are not listening - but, that is okay - stay on the path you are on - see where it leads you...

You have the right to believe whatever you will - and, the responsibility for each decision will follow.

 

[GaryA]

And none of these things have happened…

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I agree - I did not say that they did...

 

[Truthnightmare]

I agree - I did not say that they did...

Cool… we are in agreement..
How long is a generation? Who is the generation of the fig tree?

If Matthew 24 is referring to the people Jesus was speaking with at that time, why are we still here almost 2,000 years later?

 

[Mem]

Cool… we are in agreement..
How long is a generation? Who is the generation of the fig tree?

If Matthew 24 is referring to the people Jesus was speaking with at that time, why are we still here almost 2,000 years later?

Without reading the links to the content provided, I've gathered that GaryA' sees the generation being spoken to at the time of the word spoken would not pass until they saw these things begin to happen and those things would then continue to keep happening until Christ's return.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Without reading the links to the content provided, I've gathered that GaryA' sees the generation being spoken to at the time of the word spoken would not pass until they saw these things begin to happen and those things would then continue to keep happening until Christ's return.

Interesting assessment, but even if if the events spoken of would continue to happen, how would the generation being spoken to at the time see all the events?

A generation signifies a time.
Numbers 32:13
And the Lord’S anger was kindled against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the Lord was consumed.

I’m not saying a generation is 40 years, heck it could be 120 years, but it must be defined by some amount of years.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Accepting the mark is in essence pledging allegiance to the Antichrist. Satan does nothing original. The mark is his way of placing a "seal" upon people in direct defiance of God. Those who accept Satan's seal will be lost for eternity.

Rev 20:4
And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, NEITHER had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


Rev 16:1-2
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, AND upon them which worshipped his image.

how would you say this fits into that ?

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you think the “ mark “ in thier foreheads has anything to do with thier belief in Christ and acceptance of the gospel ? Or refusal to accept him ?

what I mean is if it’s true th at those who believe the gospel and are baptized will be saved and those who refuse to believe shall be damned …….. doesn’t tbat give revelation a whole new look ?

 

[GaryA]

Interesting assessment, but even if if the events spoken of would continue to happen, how would the generation being spoken to at the time see all the events?

I don't think you understand what I am saying yet...

I am saying that the actual meaning of the scripture-in-focus is not that the generation being spoken to would see the complete fulfillment of all of the prophecy; rather, it is saying that the generation being spoken to would see the beginning of the fulfillment of the prophecy.

In other words, they would see the prophecy begin to be fulfilled - not that they would see all of it fulfilled to completion.

I am saying - that is what it is actually saying. It does not say that any generation would see all of it during that generation.

It says that - before the [then] generation passed - that they would see the prophecy begin to occur.

 

[GaryA]

Without reading the links to the content provided, I've gathered that GaryA' sees the generation being spoken to at the time of the word spoken would not pass until they saw these things begin to happen and those things would then continue to keep happening until Christ's return.

Yes - that is the idea - the prophecy covers a span of ~2000 years. And, it has been "unfolding" over that entire span of time.

It did not all happen circa 70 A.D.

It will not all happen in some future 7-year span of time.

Some of it is already past history and some of it is future.

 

[GaryA]

In the Greek, the phrase "till all these things be fulfilled" is actually saying "till all these things begin to be fulfilled"...

The timing-sense that is present in the grammar is 'beginning-and-continuing' - not 'beginning-to-end completed'.

He said that - the generation at-the-time would not pass away before "all of these things would begin to be fulfilled"...

He did not say that "all these things" would all be fulfilled within a generation.

The "preconceived narrative" is the 'preterist' view - that [the] "all things" were fulfilled before the generation that was alive when the passage was written [all] passed away. And, understandably so. For - "on the surface" - the [English] wording certainly "appears" to say so.

However, if you "dig a little deeper" (perhaps [even] more than "a little"), you should find that the idea of 'commencement' (of the prophecy) is 'embedded' in the [Greek] wording of the passage - meaning that the prophecy (the "all things") would 'commence' to unfold - or, 'begin' to occur.

In other words, the "all things" would begin to come about before that generation passed.