-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jesus is perfect theology:
Jesus is the exact representation of the Father in nature and in doing His will on this earth. Jesus said no one knows my Father.
So, whatever understanding of God we get from the Old Covenant that doesn't line up with Jesus' manifestation of the Father will be inaccurate.
Hebrews 1:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Jesus is the exact representation of the Father in nature and in doing His will on this earth. Jesus said no one knows my Father.
So, whatever understanding of God we get from the Old Covenant that doesn't line up with Jesus' manifestation of the Father will be inaccurate.
Hebrews 1:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Instead of making a personal insult, I would suggest you think a bit harder about what I said and then ask a question. The second quote above is a question/point I was making to demonstrate that IF God's character changes, he has a problem...which is consistent with my first quote where I plainly state that God does not change.
Very good...so why do you listen to Moses, Isaiah, etc. to understand God?
You say, "So, whatever understanding of God we get from the Old Covenant that doesn't line up with Jesus' manifestation of the Father will be inaccurate." Yes! So, again, why look to the shadows and darkness to understand what the Light plainly gave???
You say, "So, whatever understanding of God we get from the Old Covenant that doesn't line up with Jesus' manifestation of the Father will be inaccurate." Yes! So, again, why look to the shadows and darkness to understand what the Light plainly gave???
it's not an insult, it's an observation. one that is not at all hard to perceive.
if an insult is made, you're the one insulting yourself.
there is no "if" in the second post of yours that i quoted, and you're not exactly being subtle, are you?
so "if" you meant that post to be an hypothetical, you insult yourself by how poorly you accomplished that intent.
if an insult is made, you're the one insulting yourself.
there is no "if" in the second post of yours that i quoted, and you're not exactly being subtle, are you?
so "if" you meant that post to be an hypothetical, you insult yourself by how poorly you accomplished that intent.
I think people's ability to judge who is evil is, shall I say, extremely unreliable. In fact, the Light seems to say that all people are evil, "If you being evil, know how to give good things to your children...". Which person gets to judge who is evil and worthy of destruction? Donald Trump? The leader of North Korea? The local leader of the Klu Klux Klan who is also an elder at the baptist/pentecostal/methodist/etc. church? As a disciple, I seek to bring peace and be a peace maker...I don't try and sit in judgement of who deserves to die...that is what the world does, and the world will do what it does. As a disciple, I follow the King and seek to promote the King and help build his Kingdom.
Christianity is not a "go it alone" sort of religion. We are meant to be in community and work with community. So, I feel like biblical illiteracy is a matter of a failure on the church's part to properly discipleship people.
There are some churches that have a poor curriculum for their youth. It's possible for faithfully attending families to get their children biblically literate through a good program that surveys the scriptures over the course of several years.
For people who are unchurched and convert as adults, there should be adult bible study, small group, etc. available that surveys the bible every year.
Also, there are many churches that follow a calendar for Sunday readings. In the Anglican church, for example, if you faithfully attend each Sunday for three years, you will hear the entire bible read (now, you won't necessarily be studying each part of the bible, but you'll have heard it all). It doesn't seem like it would be that hard for a church to make a commitment to working its way through the entire bible in the course of three years (and by "church" I mean that the pastor would follow a calendar and preach on a little bit each week, so the congregation can have readings and teaching together).
There are lots of reasons why individuals might not dig into the bible on their own. Lots of people are intimidated by it. Maybe they aren't big readers and it seems difficult to understand. They need other believers to come along side them and help them gain a love for the scriptures.
There are some churches that have a poor curriculum for their youth. It's possible for faithfully attending families to get their children biblically literate through a good program that surveys the scriptures over the course of several years.
For people who are unchurched and convert as adults, there should be adult bible study, small group, etc. available that surveys the bible every year.
Also, there are many churches that follow a calendar for Sunday readings. In the Anglican church, for example, if you faithfully attend each Sunday for three years, you will hear the entire bible read (now, you won't necessarily be studying each part of the bible, but you'll have heard it all). It doesn't seem like it would be that hard for a church to make a commitment to working its way through the entire bible in the course of three years (and by "church" I mean that the pastor would follow a calendar and preach on a little bit each week, so the congregation can have readings and teaching together).
There are lots of reasons why individuals might not dig into the bible on their own. Lots of people are intimidated by it. Maybe they aren't big readers and it seems difficult to understand. They need other believers to come along side them and help them gain a love for the scriptures.
P
Not my thread. It belongs to all who frequent this forum. I just felt the need to remind everyone that we are going to be judged by Christ's words. The words He spoke, the words He gave to Paul. By all of them. Too many not in agreement here and I was merely hoping to get someone to reflect on what it really means to dispute or deny doctrine when it is scripture.
But hey, I appreciate the sentiment.
But hey, I appreciate the sentiment.
God gets to say what is good and evil, and He has made it clear to us what it is from His revealed word to us. Are you saying we are completely incapable of knowing the difference between right and wrong? Are you saying we are just dumb little drones that should stay in our lanes and never look around ourselves? I just can't understand what your point is here, are you saying the you can't look around and logically see what is good and what is bad? Is there no difference in a guy raping a child and feeding a starving child? This postmodern viewpoint is just ridiculous on it's face. If there is no God then you are 100% right and what's good or bad is just a subjective taste, but there is a God and He created us with a rational mind and understanding to know right and wrong.
Did you not serve up 1 Sam. 15:1-3 juxtaposed against Hitler and Pol Pot and Nero and some unknown, unnamed million other examples as a way to show who you think is evil and deserved being destroyed while telling me that men are unreliable in judging evil? As if I had judged who was evil, when in fact I had not, you know, I am agreeing with God's right to destroy evil as being loving just and merciful while you are claiming that God's characteristics are contradictory and confusing to people. I have pointed out that it is your classifications that are at fault for your viewing God in such a way.
God wasn't merciful? Seems to me he was abundantly merciful to Israel (Isaiah 65:2-3 and many other passages). The fact that God is not exhaustively merciful (tolerating evil indefinitely) does not make Him unmerciful.
From which dictionary does that definition come? It is rather a subjective test; what is reasonable to a parent may be quite unreasonable to their child.
By what standard do you assert that wrath is bad? Your argument appears flawed, in that you assume the existence of a moral standard which is above God. Biblically, God Himself is the moral standard, and as the Creator, has the sole authority to dictate what is 'good' or 'bad'. Do some of these things appear inconsistent with God's own standard? Perhaps, but then we might not understand them thoroughly. With some patient investigation and a humble desire to uncover truth, you will find that God's morality is consistent... surprisingly so, in many cases.
From which dictionary does that definition come? It is rather a subjective test; what is reasonable to a parent may be quite unreasonable to their child.
By what standard do you assert that wrath is bad? Your argument appears flawed, in that you assume the existence of a moral standard which is above God. Biblically, God Himself is the moral standard, and as the Creator, has the sole authority to dictate what is 'good' or 'bad'. Do some of these things appear inconsistent with God's own standard? Perhaps, but then we might not understand them thoroughly. With some patient investigation and a humble desire to uncover truth, you will find that God's morality is consistent... surprisingly so, in many cases.
this is a good point.
showing wrath is not in and of itself "bad" -- hating what is wrong is evidence of consistency in loving what is right. if being indignant at injustice was "bad" then loveyourlight is just as much being "evil" by taking exception to criticism that he or she believes is undeserved. but if it is justifiable to be upset when we are wronged, is God not justified in His anger when He is not honored?
this is illustrative of scriptural illiteracy: that because God has in His great mercy and patience made it possible for us to receive His forgiveness through grace, people believe that He does not punish sin and that He will not judge the world. If we knew the scripture, we would understand that He is just, and that though we may have peace with Him through Christ, He will not forget to repay the wicked who reject the atonement He offers. we would understand that it is by mercy we are saved, and that He is with great patience giving all an opportunity to return to Him.
but is it worse than illiteracy, if we actually know the scripture, and understand that He is a jealous God, and a just God, who is the Judge and Owner of the whole earth -- and instead of taking it to heart, we categorically reject it? as though grace is a deserved thing owed to the world, and not a gift out of His kindness and love?
what is that? is that illiteracy, or is it something else?
showing wrath is not in and of itself "bad" -- hating what is wrong is evidence of consistency in loving what is right. if being indignant at injustice was "bad" then loveyourlight is just as much being "evil" by taking exception to criticism that he or she believes is undeserved. but if it is justifiable to be upset when we are wronged, is God not justified in His anger when He is not honored?
this is illustrative of scriptural illiteracy: that because God has in His great mercy and patience made it possible for us to receive His forgiveness through grace, people believe that He does not punish sin and that He will not judge the world. If we knew the scripture, we would understand that He is just, and that though we may have peace with Him through Christ, He will not forget to repay the wicked who reject the atonement He offers. we would understand that it is by mercy we are saved, and that He is with great patience giving all an opportunity to return to Him.
but is it worse than illiteracy, if we actually know the scripture, and understand that He is a jealous God, and a just God, who is the Judge and Owner of the whole earth -- and instead of taking it to heart, we categorically reject it? as though grace is a deserved thing owed to the world, and not a gift out of His kindness and love?
what is that? is that illiteracy, or is it something else?
because Moses and Isaiah are not "darkness"
Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the Lord rises upon you.
See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples,
but the Lord rises upon you and his glory appears over you.
(Isaiah 60:1-2)
See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples,
but the Lord rises upon you and his glory appears over you.
(Isaiah 60:1-2)
if we do not also see the Light in the testimony of these men, who spoke by the same spirit - then the darkness is not in them, but over our own eyes.
it was by Isaiah in fact, that it was first spoken - "the people walking in darkness have seen a great light"
here's another question then --
is it "illiteracy" if we know the scripture, and have read Isaiah, but don't see the Light in what he says, and consider it darkness instead?
or is that something different from illiteracy?