Why Daniel's 70th Week does NOT support Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism

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garee

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I am not saying I do not want to predict.
I am saying I cannot predict, or at least predict correctly.
and the (futurists) cannot predict correctly either.

Why?

Rev 16:18 is another example to explain why one cannot foretell.

Rev 16:18 - And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings,[c] peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake.

Key Question: are the flashes of lightning to be interpreted literally or metaphorically?

Answer: We don't know. We don't know until after fulfillment happens.

Why?

Because there is a biblical case for the lightning to be literal lightning (Exodus 9:23)

BUT ALSO

Because there is a biblical case for the lightning to be metaphorical lightning for war (Ezekiel 21:9-10)

So how do you properly interpret Rev 16:18? By guessing? WRONG!!!
Answer: One cannot predict or foretell if the lightning in Rev 16:18 is literal or metaphorical. One has to wait for fulfillment to happen first, then and only then can they match all the clues to the historical record and conclude if these flashes of lightning are literal or metaphorical lightning (for war).


Understand to logic?

The logic is we walk by faith the unseen eternal according to prophecy not by sight the temporal .Signs follow what one believes.

No signs are given .Its a evil generation that show me then we will believe. We are not to seek after wonderments rather that believing prophecy .No sign gifts .Spiritual gifts that work from within . . yes.

The word lighting is used the same way as in "the twinkling of the eye" .It has to do with speed.

In that way you could say Christ is lightning personified, Quick to fulfill his plan of His word .

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 28:3His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
 

Phoneman-777

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Aug 3, 2019
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Wrong: read the Geneva Bible and its notes and u will see that they believed that the 1st beast of rev and the little horn of daniel is roman empire. the 2nd beast of rev is apostate roman church. you should get this right.

but u are right that jesuit futurist teaching has permeated evangelical christian churches. But you saying 2nd beast is the best country this world has ever seen will push them even more to the futuristic view.
Hello, brother, sorry I took so long to get back. It seems my claim of Luther's view on the First Beast of Revelation 13 referring to the Papacy was just as I had originally said - but it is understandable why you took the position you did. You see, Luther actually saw BOTH beasts as pertaining to the papacy! When a Reformer spoke of the "Roman Empire" that phrase can easily refer to the "papal Roman Empire" ruled by Popes which came after the "papan Roman Empire ruled by the Caesars:

Martin Luther: "Up to this point Luther seems to have prepared the way for the climactic chap. 13, to which he gives his full attention, because he sees in the two beasts of this pericope a clear reference to 'the papal empire and the imperial papacy': 'The papacy,' he declares, 'brings the secular sword under its control.'" --- THE ESCHATOLOGICAL THEOLOGY OF MARTIN LUTHER PART 11: LUTHER'S EXPOSITION OF DANIEL AND REVELATION WINFRIED VOGEL Marienhoehe Seminary D-6100 Darmstadt West Germany

"You see the whore of Babylon wearing a papal crown. You see the seven-headed beast wearing a papal (not pagan) crown. The message was clear." -- https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/explanation/martinluther.html

Luther's commentary identified the papacy as “that loathsome beast (Rev. 13:1) which has blasphemous names on his forehead" (the forehead of the first beast).

So, it is actually contrary to the beliefs of the Reformers to attribute the first beast of Revelation 13 to the Pagan Roman Empire or anything else that is not of the Papacy itself. Perhaps you can reconsider your position.
 

Phoneman-777

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@Phoneman-777

I hope you know that I was being serious and not sarcastic (or whatever).

I am interested in seeing your perspective on that...
Sorry bro, been away for a while. If the idea that the U.S. is the Second Beast of Revelation 13 rested solely on it's description in Revelation 13, one might concede such an idea to be largely subjective....

...however...

...the description laid upon the Historicist prophetic timeline leaves absolutely no room for other interpretation.

Methodist church co-founder John Wesley, as well as many others, well understood this timeline and is why he wrote in his late 19th century commentary on Revelation 13 that the time of the First Beast (that being the Papacy, which is defined as the "union of church and State") is almost over and "we now await the rise of the Second Beast" which is soon to come. The Reformers applied the recurring eschatological time symbols of "1,260 Days", "42 Months", "time, times, and half a time", "3 1/2 years" all to refer to the blasphemous 1,260 year Papal reign from its inception in 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. when the papacy received a deadly wound from the sword of France and was declared dead...the church continued on, but the State had ceased to do her bidding.

According to the prophecy, as the First Beast was to be killed by the same sword with which it killed so many for so many long centuries, the sword of France. Where I live, the Fleur De Lis is a prominent symbol associated with the Catholic church and the French monarchy which put to death millions for "heresy". As the First Beast is in decline and finally receives a deadly wound in 1798, the Second Beast is to commence arising. The United States declared independence in 1776, two years later got its first ambassador in 1778, after which the Revolution is won, the Constitution is signed, the Bill of Rights later ratified, and in 1798 the United States gains nation status as an international sea power by the establishment of the U.S. Navy. The Second Beast arose right on schedule. The description of it rising "out of the Earth" and having "two horns like a lamb but spake as a dragon" and will eventually "cause the Earth and them that dwell therein to worship the First Beast" fits the U.S. to a T.
 

Phoneman-777

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It is not in prophesy because God is going to ordain Moses Law again. It is in prophesy because God knew they were going to do it before they did it. The abomination of desolation is a Man Standing in the Holy Place and demanding to worshiped as God. Just because the word desolate is used in different contexts in the bible does not give one the right to force an application to this prophesy that does not fit. Seems like ones conscious would bother them if they attempted to do so. I am sticking with the most natural and literal fulfillment on this one. I will quote the scripture verbatim and go with the literal fulfillment without allegorization. An end time prophesy yet to be fulfilled not an always present reality or something that happened in the 1st Century or since that time that went past us without anyone understanding.
I don't know bro, that description is kinda disjointed to me. God is not going to ordain any Law of Moses anymore...that law is done, nailed to the Cross and no where in Scripture does it indicate otherwise. The "law" to which end times prophecy refers is the Ten Commandments, for although it is OK to forgo circumcision, offering lambs, incense, food, drinks, etc., it is not now nor ever will be acceptable in the sight of God to break His Ten Commandments, obviously. As for the Abomination of Desolation, you need to employ Ezekiel's descriptions of the abominations of chapter 8, where you will see that the worst one of all of them is God's priests with their back to Him worshiping the SUN, the symbol of Satan, the "sun god" and the "venerable day of the sun" - it's got nothing to do with a man demanding worship, but everything to do with Satan RECEIVING WORSHIP due our Lord - that is what is so abominable. When the Roman soldiers surrounded Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and sank their Sun God standards in the holy ground of the city, at that time the cup of God's wrath against the Jesus-rejecting, Satan-worshiping Jews was full and commenced to be poured out upon their heads.
 

GaryA

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Sorry bro, been away for a while. If the idea that the U.S. is the Second Beast of Revelation 13 rested solely on it's description in Revelation 13, one might concede such an idea to be largely subjective....

...however...

...the description laid upon the Historicist prophetic timeline leaves absolutely no room for other interpretation.

Methodist church co-founder John Wesley, as well as many others, well understood this timeline and is why he wrote in his late 19th century commentary on Revelation 13 that the time of the First Beast (that being the Papacy, which is defined as the "union of church and State") is almost over and "we now await the rise of the Second Beast" which is soon to come. The Reformers applied the recurring eschatological time symbols of "1,260 Days", "42 Months", "time, times, and half a time", "3 1/2 years" all to refer to the blasphemous 1,260 year Papal reign from its inception in 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. when the papacy received a deadly wound from the sword of France and was declared dead...the church continued on, but the State had ceased to do her bidding.

According to the prophecy, as the First Beast was to be killed by the same sword with which it killed so many for so many long centuries, the sword of France. Where I live, the Fleur De Lis is a prominent symbol associated with the Catholic church and the French monarchy which put to death millions for "heresy". As the First Beast is in decline and finally receives a deadly wound in 1798, the Second Beast is to commence arising. The United States declared independence in 1776, two years later got its first ambassador in 1778, after which the Revolution is won, the Constitution is signed, the Bill of Rights later ratified, and in 1798 the United States gains nation status as an international sea power by the establishment of the U.S. Navy. The Second Beast arose right on schedule. The description of it rising "out of the Earth" and having "two horns like a lamb but spake as a dragon" and will eventually "cause the Earth and them that dwell therein to worship the First Beast" fits the U.S. to a T.
Thanks.

I believe that the time span indicated in Revelation 13:5 is referring to 538-1798 A.D.
 

Nehemiah6

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Luther's commentary identified the papacy as “that loathsome beast (Rev. 13:1) which has blasphemous names on his forehead"
Luther was clearly mistaken. Most of the Reformers had this view, but it is simply unsupported by Scripture. The Bible is very clear that the reign of the Beast (the Antichrist) is only for 3 1/2 years (42 months, 1260 days).
 

Phoneman-777

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Its all one and the same father of lies named Legion .The first and the last beast rolled into one . The opposing spirit of error that works in the heart of corrupted mankind. The god of this one world government.

What would be the purpose of the geological locations after the kingdoms of this world? Legion is the father of all the kingdoms of this world .He has no horns . Simply the father of lies, a murderer from the beginning. Choosing his spiritual weapon of warfare the letter of the law, death . "Thou shall not surely die, Just look at me and live". Why believe in the unseen (faith) ?

We walk by faith (Christ's in us) the unseen eternal. The commandment is to know no man after the flesh of nations. To include the Son of man, Jesus the prophet and apostle. Our High Priest .

We walk by faith the unseen eternal using the temporal things seen, mixing them we can find the spiritual understanding .(the gospel) No mixing no gospel

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the "things" which are not seen are eternal
Sorry, but we can't interpret prophecy along such lines. There are clearly defined symbols in prophecy, and it should be clear to all that beasts represent kingdoms, period. If we don't correctly identify the papacy as Antichrist, we will be sitting ducks for when the Mark of the Papal Antichrist goes into effect. If you wanna know what the Mark of the Papal Antichrist is, just ask them...they will proudly tell you what it is, mock you for going along with them instead of the Bible, and earnestly await for you to join them in persecuting those who "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
 

Phoneman-777

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Luther was clearly mistaken. Most of the Reformers had this view, but it is simply unsupported by Scripture. The Bible is very clear that the reign of the Beast (the Antichrist) is only for 3 1/2 years (42 months, 1260 days).
Luther and the rest of the Reformers clearly understood the First Beast to be associated with the Papacy, and rightly so. As for the time, in prophecy it is symbolic, a day for a year. Surely, you don't think Daniel's 70 Weeks are a mere 490 days, right? Whether you choose the decree of Cyrus, Darius, or either of Artaxerxes as the starting point, counting 490 days doesn't bring us anywhere near "Messiah the Prince" or anyone else who came claiming to be such...but....counting by years - "each day for a year" - brings us right down to the time when it was said, "Come, we have found the Messias!" Antichrist also has a time period, as well, and it is 1,260 years, the reign of the Papacy in Rome.
 
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I don't know bro, that description is kinda disjointed to me. God is not going to ordain any Law of Moses anymore...that law is done, nailed to the Cross and no where in Scripture does it indicate otherwise. The "law" to which end times prophecy refers is the Ten Commandments, for although it is OK to forgo circumcision, offering lambs, incense, food, drinks, etc., it is not now nor ever will be acceptable in the sight of God to break His Ten Commandments, obviously. As for the Abomination of Desolation, you need to employ Ezekiel's descriptions of the abominations of chapter 8, where you will see that the worst one of all of them is God's priests with their back to Him worshiping the SUN, the symbol of Satan, the "sun god" and the "venerable day of the sun" - it's got nothing to do with a man demanding worship, but everything to do with Satan RECEIVING WORSHIP due our Lord - that is what is so abominable. When the Roman soldiers surrounded Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and sank their Sun God standards in the holy ground of the city, at that time the cup of God's wrath against the Jesus-rejecting, Satan-worshiping Jews was full and commenced to be poured out upon their heads.
"It is not in prophesy because God is going to ordain Moses Law again." Was disjointed indeed. I meant, the prophesy does not mean God is going to reinstitute the Law of Moses. I realize it didn't come out right. I must have been tired.
 
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Hello, brother, sorry I took so long to get back. It seems my claim of Luther's view on the First Beast of Revelation 13 referring to the Papacy was just as I had originally said - but it is understandable why you took the position you did. You see, Luther actually saw BOTH beasts as pertaining to the papacy! When a Reformer spoke of the "Roman Empire" that phrase can easily refer to the "papal Roman Empire" ruled by Popes which came after the "papan Roman Empire ruled by the Caesars:

Martin Luther: "Up to this point Luther seems to have prepared the way for the climactic chap. 13, to which he gives his full attention, because he sees in the two beasts of this pericope a clear reference to 'the papal empire and the imperial papacy': 'The papacy,' he declares, 'brings the secular sword under its control.'" --- THE ESCHATOLOGICAL THEOLOGY OF MARTIN LUTHER PART 11: LUTHER'S EXPOSITION OF DANIEL AND REVELATION WINFRIED VOGEL Marienhoehe Seminary D-6100 Darmstadt West Germany

"You see the whore of Babylon wearing a papal crown. You see the seven-headed beast wearing a papal (not pagan) crown. The message was clear." -- https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/explanation/martinluther.html

Luther's commentary identified the papacy as “that loathsome beast (Rev. 13:1) which has blasphemous names on his forehead" (the forehead of the first beast).

So, it is actually contrary to the beliefs of the Reformers to attribute the first beast of Revelation 13 to the Pagan Roman Empire or anything else that is not of the Papacy itself. Perhaps you can reconsider your position.
This is some good research you have brought up.
Seems Luther saw the whole of Rev 13 referring to the Papacy and its connection to the State, or empires.

This is what I see Luther has referring to: The first beast is "state" the second beast is "church".

One example of this would be the 1st beast being Byzantine Emperor who appointed the Pope, the 2nd beast. This happened for a time and is call the Byzantine Papacy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Papacy

Then in 800 the Papacy broke away from the Byzantines and to sustain and grow their power they crowned Charlemagne as Emperor of the Romans. Again you have the Church (2nd beast) Pope, giving authority over the the State (1st beast) emperor.
https://www.dw.com/en/charlemagne-is-crowned-emperor-december-25-800/a-4614858-1
 

Phoneman-777

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This is some good research you have brought up.
Seems Luther saw the whole of Rev 13 referring to the Papacy and its connection to the State, or empires.

This is what I see Luther has referring to: The first beast is "state" the second beast is "church".

One example of this would be the 1st beast being Byzantine Emperor who appointed the Pope, the 2nd beast. This happened for a time and is call the Byzantine Papacy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Papacy

Then in 800 the Papacy broke away from the Byzantines and to sustain and grow their power they crowned Charlemagne as Emperor of the Romans. Again you have the Church (2nd beast) Pope, giving authority over the the State (1st beast) emperor.
https://www.dw.com/en/charlemagne-is-crowned-emperor-december-25-800/a-4614858-1
***Advance apologies for such a long post*** :) What is important is that the framework of the Reformers comes through clearly, though the details may vary somewhat. It seems the view of the early Reformers was that the First Beast represented the papacy's domination over political affairs while the Second Beast represented purely the spiritual corruption of it.
However, later Reformers adopted the correct view that the First Beast was the Papacy in all its aspects and the Second Beast was something different altogether, likely due to their having witnessed the decline of the papacy and that the Second Beast was to arise out of the Earth, while the First Beast arose out of the sea, two entirely different points of origin:

When a "Beast" arises out of the "sea", the Bible defines that as "nations" arising out of "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues" or densely populated regions. In Daniel, as one nation fell, another arose right in its place. CONVERSELY, the Second Beast was to arise out of the "earth" is the antithesis of the sea, and refers to a nation arising out of a sparsely populated area - though the later Reformers eventually saw this, as evidenced by Wesley's commentary.

None could have possibly foreseen the rise of the the "lamblike" Christian nation of the United States which arose from obscurity, with two horns but no crowns which symbolize a nation with no king and a church with no Pope (the two great principles that define the U.S. : Republicanism and Protestantism), would grown into an end time global superpower with the muscle to force the entire world to worship Rome, would speak as a dragon through its unBiblical legislation and laws, and will eventually form an "image to the Beast" by a church/state union that will enforce unBiblical religious laws already on our books but lie dormant for now and persecute those who refuse, just as the Papal "church/state" Beast persecuted those that refused to go along with her satanic agenda.
 
Feb 8, 2019
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***Advance apologies for such a long post*** :) What is important is that the framework of the Reformers comes through clearly, though the details may vary somewhat. It seems the view of the early Reformers was that the First Beast represented the papacy's domination over political affairs while the Second Beast represented purely the spiritual corruption of it.
However, later Reformers adopted the correct view that the First Beast was the Papacy in all its aspects and the Second Beast was something different altogether, likely due to their having witnessed the decline of the papacy and that the Second Beast was to arise out of the Earth, while the First Beast arose out of the sea, two entirely different points of origin:

When a "Beast" arises out of the "sea", the Bible defines that as "nations" arising out of "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues" or densely populated regions. In Daniel, as one nation fell, another arose right in its place. CONVERSELY, the Second Beast was to arise out of the "earth" is the antithesis of the sea, and refers to a nation arising out of a sparsely populated area - though the later Reformers eventually saw this, as evidenced by Wesley's commentary.

None could have possibly foreseen the rise of the the "lamblike" Christian nation of the United States which arose from obscurity, with two horns but no crowns which symbolize a nation with no king and a church with no Pope (the two great principles that define the U.S. : Republicanism and Protestantism), would grown into an end time global superpower with the muscle to force the entire world to worship Rome, would speak as a dragon through its unBiblical legislation and laws, and will eventually form an "image to the Beast" by a church/state union that will enforce unBiblical religious laws already on our books but lie dormant for now and persecute those who refuse, just as the Papal "church/state" Beast persecuted those that refused to go along with her satanic agenda.
Are you saying the United States of America is the Second Beast of Revelation right now?
 

Phoneman-777

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Are you saying the United States of America is the Second Beast of Revelation right now?
Sure, although it has yet to fully fulfill the "spake as a dragon" part, or the part about "causeth (everybody) to worship the First Beast". The U.S. can legislate all it wants to regarding the last Six commandments, but when it begins enforcing laws regarding the First Four commandments, it will have fully manifested "spake as a dragon". There are "blue laws" on the books now which are not enforced, but as soon as Trump finishes stacking the courts with judges sympathetic to Rome's brand of Christianity, religious freedom in American will begin to disappear. Isn't it ironic that godless leftists are actually found to protect religious freedom at present? They would NEVER allow such laws to stand, but the one thing everyone is ignoring right now....a steady shift from left leaning judicial activism to a new trend of decidedly right judicial appointees...is going to be the muscle our right wing Christian fundamentalists friends have been waiting for decades to materialize.
 

Phoneman-777

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This is some good research you have brought up.
Seems Luther saw the whole of Rev 13 referring to the Papacy and its connection to the State, or empires.

This is what I see Luther has referring to: The first beast is "state" the second beast is "church".

One example of this would be the 1st beast being Byzantine Emperor who appointed the Pope, the 2nd beast. This happened for a time and is call the Byzantine Papacy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Papacy

Then in 800 the Papacy broke away from the Byzantines and to sustain and grow their power they crowned Charlemagne as Emperor of the Romans. Again you have the Church (2nd beast) Pope, giving authority over the the State (1st beast) emperor.
https://www.dw.com/en/charlemagne-is-crowned-emperor-december-25-800/a-4614858-1
I think it's more likely the Reformers saw in the First Beast the secular authority of the papacy, namely the authority granted it by the Barbarian states as did Clovis of the Francs. While the early Reformers attributed the Papacy's religious aspect to the Second Beast, later Reformers understood that beast to be something other than that, as revealed by papal decline and a better understanding of the nuances between the two Beasts.
 

garee

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Sorry, but we can't interpret prophecy along such lines. There are clearly defined symbols in prophecy, and it should be clear to all that beasts represent kingdoms, period. If we don't correctly identify the papacy as Antichrist, we will be sitting ducks for when the Mark of the Papal Antichrist goes into effect. If you wanna know what the Mark of the Papal Antichrist is, just ask them...they will proudly tell you what it is, mock you for going along with them instead of the Bible, and earnestly await for you to join them in persecuting those who "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
No sign as a wonder was given. Seeking after one like 70 AD . .we are warned of. Rather than the words "it is finished"

The veil is still rent and Revelation the signified understanding is still the last book by which we can test the spirits to see if they are of men or God not seen .

Its never about what the eyes see the temporal Any name of any nation applies. Ten nations signify all of the kingdoms of this world . We simply do not wrestles against or supported by the things seen the temporal . They must be mixed with faith the eternal, not seen the temporal

Yes many symbols are used in parables to give us the unseen spiritual understanding. Without parables, Christ the anointing Holy Spirit our one teacher in heaven . . spoke not

The papacy (daysman) is one of the many that does it with pride as one of the legion of antichrists (plural). The beast (legion) is the one spirit of error the Antichrist (singular) works in antichrists many, again a legion .

Mark 5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

(As many as needed to deceive.)

He has not left us as orphans without a working example.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: (not seen) for thou savourest not the things (not seen) that be of God, but those that be of men. (seen the temporal) Mathew 16: 22-23

We can see it working perfectly above. The antichrist (false teacher) Satan the spirit of error working in the affairs' of men again in the legion of antichrists.(many) he would try and make it all one as the god of this world.

The Father rebuked the antichrist putting His word in his prophet apostle Jesus' tongue And forgave Peter of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus. The Son of man had no power to rebuke the one spirit of the legion of antichrists.

Our father who gave words to His apostles Jesus again rebuked the antichrist. And in effect the Lord said... get behind me not seen the things of God and not Peter seen those of men .

The singular and plural form of the word antichrists must be taken into account. It reveals the man of sin.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many (legion) antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
 

Phoneman-777

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No sign as a wonder was given. Seeking after one like 70 AD . .we are warned of. Rather than the words "it is finished"
His Sacrifice was "finished" - His Intercession of our High Priest was to begin after He rose, and continues today, according to Scripture.
The veil is still rent and Revelation the signified understanding is still the last book by which we can test the spirits to see if they are of men or God not seen .Its never about what the eyes see the temporal
That's why we look to the "holy men (which) spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit".
Any name of any nation applies.

Ten nations signify all of the kingdoms of this world . We simply do not wrestles against or supported by the things seen the temporal . They must be mixed with faith the eternal, not seen the temporal

Yes many symbols are used in parables to give us the unseen spiritual understanding. Without parables, Christ the anointing Holy Spirit our one teacher in heaven . . spoke not

The papacy (daysman) is one of the many that does it with pride as one of the legion of antichrists (plural). The beast (legion) is the one spirit of error the Antichrist (singular) works in antichrists many, again a legion .

Mark 5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

(As many as needed to deceive.)

He has not left us as orphans without a working example.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: (not seen) for thou savourest not the things (not seen) that be of God, but those that be of men. (seen the temporal) Mathew 16: 22-23

We can see it working perfectly above. The antichrist (false teacher) Satan the spirit of error working in the affairs' of men again in the legion of antichrists.(many) he would try and make it all one as the god of this world.

The Father rebuked the antichrist putting His word in his prophet apostle Jesus' tongue And forgave Peter of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus. The Son of man had no power to rebuke the one spirit of the legion of antichrists.

Our father who gave words to His apostles Jesus again rebuked the antichrist. And in effect the Lord said... get behind me not seen the things of God and not Peter seen those of men .

The singular and plural form of the word antichrists must be taken into account. It reveals the man of sin.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many (legion) antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
I can't even begin to count how much of this violates the laws of eschatological hermeneutics, the most glaring of which is the lack of a prophetic timeline, but we'll have to agree to disagree. The Papacy is indeed the predicted Antichrist power that to this day claims to be that which the faithful are to look to for forgiveness, intercession, blessing, and all things which only CHRIST - not this ANTICHRIST - provides by His grace.
 

Nehemiah6

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The Papacy is indeed the predicted Antichrist
Unless you can prove that the papacy has existed for only 3 1/2 years (42 months), there is no way that the papacy is the Antichrist (the Beast).

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months*. (Rev 13:5)

*Strong's Concordance
mén: a month
Original Word: μήν, μηνός, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: mén
Phonetic Spelling: (mane)
Definition: a month
Usage: a (lunar) month.


The prophetic month consists of 30 days, therefore 42 months become 1,260 days, which is exactly 3 1/2 years.
 

Phoneman-777

Active member
Aug 3, 2019
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Unless you can prove that the papacy has existed for only 3 1/2 years (42 months), there is no way that the papacy is the Antichrist (the Beast).

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months*. (Rev 13:5)

*Strong's Concordance
mén: a month
Original Word: μήν, μηνός, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: mén
Phonetic Spelling: (mane)
Definition: a month
Usage: a (lunar) month.


The prophetic month consists of 30 days, therefore 42 months become 1,260 days, which is exactly 3 1/2 years.
In prophecy, we have no prob accepting that beasts, horns, seas, winds, eagle's wings, ribs in the mouth, etc., etc., etc., are all prophetic symbols, so why do we not accept that the TIME is also symbolic?

"...each day for a year..." -- Ezekiel 4:6
"...each day for a year..." -- Numbers 14:34
"...I cast out devils and I do cures today, tomorrow, and the third day I shall be prefected." (Jesus did that for another three years, not days) -- Luke 13:32

The 3 1/2 years - 1,260 days - are symbolic for 1,260 literal years which spanned the reign of the Papal Antichrist from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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His Sacrifice was "finished" - His Intercession of our High Priest was to begin after He rose, and continues today, according to Scripture.
That's why we look to the "holy men (which) spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit".
I can't even begin to count how much of this violates the laws of eschatological hermeneutics, the most glaring of which is the lack of a prophetic timeline, but we'll have to agree to disagree. The Papacy is indeed the predicted Antichrist power that to this day claims to be that which the faithful are to look to for forgiveness, intercession, blessing, and all things which only CHRIST - not this ANTICHRIST - provides by His grace.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

We walk by faith mixing faith the unseen eternal and that seen the temporal. the purpose of parable when rightly divided (2 Corinthians 4:18 )If no rightly dividing. Then men keep on walking by sight seeking after the things seen .1 John calls those avenues , the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyed as builders of false pride. Not of our Father in heaven

The whole time period of Kings in Israel was used as a parable in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect. When the veil was rent the abomination of desolation came into effect. Christ denounced it desolate . Temples made with human hands never again we are the temple. .

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; ( corrupted ) Hebrew 9 :8-11

Many antichrists' a Legion .The Pope is one of the big ones. But he is not the god of this word "Legion" . Legion cannot be seen and needs men Like Peter to reveal his wiles . Its not what does flesh and blood reveal but the spirit within .
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
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In the early 16th century, the "Protestant Reformation" was sweeping all across Europe. The Reformers were teaching a prophetic interpretation called "Protestant Historicism" which identified the Roman Catholic Papacy as the Antichrist - this idea was universally believed and taught throughout the Protestant world from the 16th Century until around the turn of the 20th century in America.

...
May God bless the sincere seeker of truth and help many out of Jesuit error for His glory alone, Amen.
I like charts [who doesn't right? ;) ]:

https://ia801407.us.archive.org/35/...phecy of Daniel 8 Vs 14 And Its Sub-Parts.jpg



Here is the historic position:

https://ia801509.us.archive.org/9/i...ble - Daniel 12 - (Chart) 1,260 Day Years.jpg



More can be found about this here:

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm

as well as many other places:

http://www.historicism.net/

https://historicist.info/articles/historicism-futurism-preterism/

https://amazingdiscoveries.org/RT_encyclopedia_Futurism_Jesuit_Ribera#!

https://amazingdiscoveries.org/RT_encyclopedia_Futurism_doctrine_Protestant

https://amazingdiscoveries.org/RT_encyclopedia_Futurism_Preterism_Catholic

http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/eBooks/THE_ORIGIN_OF_FUTURISM.pdf

https://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception-unity_Jesuit_preterism_futurist_dispensationalism