Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future

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GaryA

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My Theory is that there was [Never] a Gap Theory in the mind of God to begin with. Theoretically speaking here, by taking the [Very Words] of Christ, Matthew 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)...let's concentrate on this portion [stand in the holy place].

stand in the holy place. This just means as simple as having Gentile person standing in the Holy Place rather than a Jewish High Priest is an Abomination. The Romans who destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D. were inside the Temple and Holy of Hollies. That classifies as an abomination because the Romans are Gentiles, not Levite High Priest.

Christ just said for this to be an abomination, it just had to STAND in the Holy Place.

That clearly would have happened during the Temple seize and then destruction.
It is okay to examine the detail and reason a conclusion about it; however, don't forget the "bigger picture"...

Verses 16-20 comprise the instructions that the Jew-Christians were to follow according to the recognition of what is being illustrated in verse 15.

'When ye therefore shall see...'

[then]

'follow these instructions'

(And don't waste any time doing it.)

There was a three-year seige before the Romans took the city and destroyed the temple.

The Jew-Christians followed the instructions before/as the seige began.

What did they 'see' - before/as the seige began - three years before the temple was ever touched or destroyed - that they instantly recognized as being what was illustrated in verse 15?

hint:

( whoso readeth, let him understand: )
 

randyk

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How can that be if the author of the doctrine was the apostle Paul himself? I mean I can read Paul's inspired writings just the same as the apostolic fathers and I've reached the same conclusion: Pretrib premillennial. Why in the world would I postulate something different than what Paul describes?
I don't know. You tell me. Paul didn't write anything remotely Pretrib.
 

GaryA

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This is a commonly held erroneous idea. The throne on which Christ is seated in Heaven is His own throne...
This is a commonly held erroneous idea.

Jesus is at the right hand of the Father - on the Father's throne. He will not sit on His own throne until His 1000-year reign on the earth.
 

GaryA

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Lets put your unbiblical theory regarding Matt 24:15 to rest RIGHT NOW shall we?
THIS dear friend, is THE BIBLICAL Abomination of Desolation. The real one. The genuine one. The description of which is so detailed, so imposing, so remarkable in its unique identity that it cannot POSSIBLY be confused with ANY act or deed or person who was involved in the 70 AD destruction of the Temple!
SMH

:(:(:(

Guess again...
 

GaryA

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Friend....perhaps you fail to comprehend that you have erroneously conflated the 70AD event and Matt 24:15 (the A of D). In an effort to rectify your terrible mistake, I have utterly destroyed your faulty theory in about 5 minutes, proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that they cannot possibly be speaking of the same event.
They can - and, they are...

All three of these passages are speaking of the very same exact thing:

~ Matthew 24:15-20
~ Mark 13:14-18
~ Luke 21:20-23a
 

GaryA

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Well....so now we have somebody talking about not one but TWO Abomination of Desolations eh?
Whatever they need to shoehorn their crazy 70AD theories into the Bible I guess.

But NO. There is ONLY ONE unique, specific EVENT and PERSON which TOGETHER constitute the ONE AND ONLY Abomination of Desolation spoken by Jesus in Matt 24:15.

And this event DEFINITELY has not happened yet.
Yes it has - back in 167 B.C.
 

GaryA

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Jesus CANNOT POSSIBLY BE SPEAKING ABOUT 70AD!
Sure He can...

And, He is...

And, if you will just swallow your pride and calm down a bit, you may just begin to have a fraction of a chance/opportunity to approach having a better understanding of what the Bible really actually says in that passage...
 

GaryA

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there is not one single scrap of evidence that ANYBODY was standing, sitting or doing jumping jacks in the Holy Place of the Temple, publicly blaspheming and publicly proclaiming himself to be God back in 70 AD.
And, there didn't need to be - because, that is not what the passage is saying...
 
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It is okay to examine the detail and reason a conclusion about it; however, don't forget the "bigger picture"...

Verses 16-20 comprise the instructions that the Jew-Christians were to follow according to the recognition of what is being illustrated in verse 15.

'When ye therefore shall see...'

[then]

'follow these instructions'

(And don't waste any time doing it.)

There was a three-year seige before the Romans took the city and destroyed the temple.

The Jew-Christians followed the instructions before/as the seige began.

What did they 'see' - before/as the seige began - three years before the temple was ever touched or destroyed - that they instantly recognized as being what was illustrated in verse 15?

hint:

( whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Luke gives us a very good look at this portion of Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation.

Luke tells us this Abomination is 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

So like I was explaining to CV5, the Abomination [standing] in the Holy of Hollies is the Armies compassed around Jerusalem.

But he wants to twist my posts because he is in complete Denial of what Christ is saying in Matthew 24:15.

Plus, Luke does not even call it an abomination!
 

randyk

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Banal and insipid generalities that do not invoke the necessity of the "end of the age" and the prophecies thereof........are pretty much useless.

The coming Kingdom is what everything is all about. Reducing everything down to a mere anthropic denominator is folly.
I don't have a clue what you're talking about.
 

GaryA

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Actually, Luke verifies the original Hebrew/Aramaic from the Tanakh:

Luke 21:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Daniel 9:
26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.
כווְאַֽחֲרֵ֚י הַשָּֽׁבֻעִים֙ שִׁשִּׁ֣ים וּשְׁנַ֔יִם יִכָּרֵ֥ת מָשִׁ֖יחַ וְאֵ֣ין ל֑וֹ וְהָעִ֨יר וְהַקֹּ֜דֶשׁ יַ֠שְׁחִית עַ֣ם נָגִ֚יד הַבָּא֙ וְקִצּ֣וֹ בַשֶּׁ֔טֶף וְעַד֙ קֵ֣ץ מִלְחָמָ֔ה נֶֽחֱרֶ֖צֶת שֹֽׁמֵמֽוֹת:

The KJV of Daniel has this all butchered from translation!
 

randyk

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This anti-Pretribulation Rapture propaganda has been making the rounds for a long time. It is as worthless as any propaganda, since all propaganda is based on lies.

As I have said many times, Christ revealed the Pretribulation Rapture in John 14:1-3 BEFORE His crucifixion in 30 AD. Long before Darby or anyone else. He did not fill out all the details, which would be done by the other apostles. But when all the passages regarding the Resurrection/Rapture are properly collated and connected, there should not even be any argument about this important doctrine.

The real issue is that most Christians do not understand the spiritual significance of the Resurrection/Rapture and its connection to salvation. Therefore they continue to stumble over the sequence of events. Some continue to present the bizarre notion that the Rapture and the Second Coming are one and the same! This is similar to the bizarre notion that "the prince that shall come" in Daniel is Christ, rather than the Antichrist.
You're completely the product of your own times, and do not see, in any depth, the history of this argument. If John 14 or any other biblical discussion of the endtimes mentioned Pretrib at all, nobody in history saw it. There is zero Pretrib Theology in the Bible. To say it is "bizarre" not to see Christ's Coming in 2 stages is itself bizarre, since no theology of it existed to any significant extent in Christian history.

Sure there have been some peripheral, marginalized eccentric views through the history of the Christian Church. But Pretrib Theology never entered the mainstream of Christian thinking until John Darby. The only thing you'll be able to cite are these rare, out of the mainstream, belief systems, never fully accepted across the spectrum.

Your claims have no historic backing. Period.
 

GaryA

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Luke gives us a very good look at this portion of Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation.

Luke tells us this Abomination is 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

So like I was explaining to CV5, the Abomination [standing] in the Holy of Hollies is the Armies compassed around Jerusalem.

But he wants to twist my posts because he is in complete Denial of what Christ is saying in Matthew 24:15.

Plus, Luke does not even call it an abomination!
The "critical" thing being that 'Jerusalem compassed with armies' is the "sign" that the Jew-Christians 'saw' - that they immediately understood was the prophetic moment that they needed to "get out of Dodge NOW"...
 

randyk

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Doctrine of imminency? No you've got it all wrong.
You fail to understand that Jesus' use of the term "the day and the hour" is a Hebrew idiom pertaining to the sighting of the new moon at Rosh Hashanah. What's implied in that term is that indeed, everyone knows that Rosh Hashanah is coming inevitably. The whole village the whole nation. They generally know the season and the month of the year. They see the new year on the horizon it is inevitable. But the precise time of the sighting of the new moon is completely unknown. Therefore they have to set up a vigilant WATCH to determine the precise arrival.

Such as it is today. The vigilant understand that these days are the end times and the fulfillment of PROPHECY shall be consummated.

The fulfillment of prophecy is always key. Fulfillment of prophecy must always be integrated for the simple reason that it must needs to be fulfilled.
You've proven precisely nothing wrong about what I said. But thanks for the background on "day and hour"--I didn't know that. Yet, it says nothing about the points I made.

I made at least 3 points about "expectation" in the context of prophetic fulfillment. We are not to be concerned about times and seasons. But there are endtime events that we will become aware of when they happen. The point is, prophecy is designed to help us where we are, and not to prognosticate about the future.

There are several ways to look at the tension about the timing and expectation of future events. Relatively speaking, Christ's 2nd Coming is sequential to his 1st Coming, and thus appears "near." However, the space of God's patience renders this an indeterminate period of time.

On the other hand, we are to be alert to false teachers, and this has little to do with anticipating the timing of Christ's Coming. Alertness is to those things that distract, confuse, or misdirect us, and nothing about Christ's coming, except that avoiding errors helps us be ready for that event.

To be "ready" for Christ's Coming again has nothing to do with anticipating the timing of that event. Rather, it has to do with remaining morally ready, which is the requirement for every faithful believer. We are always to be faithful. And thus, we can always be ready for final judgment, having repented of our sins, and choosing to live in righteousness. Whether Christ returns in our lifetime or not is not the issue. We are ready for future judgment, whenever that happens, as long as today we are living in righteousness.
 

GaryA

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Plus, Luke does not even call it an abomination!
And, there is a reason for that...

I interpret the verse (15) differently than you; however, the final simple plain straight-forward result is this:

All three of these passages are speaking of the very same exact thing:

~ Matthew 24:15-20
~ Mark 13:14-18
~ Luke 21:20-23a
They are all three talking about 'Jerusalem compassed with armies' as/being the "sign" the Jew-Christians would 'see' and know to leave immediately...
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I said to cv5 that 70 A.D. had NOTHING to do with Satan.
But he refuses to read that part so he can jump on his bandwagon.
Well, Matthew 24:4 and following (through chpt 25) is not about the events surrounding 70ad.

Luke 21:12-24a is about the events surrounding 70ad (and note that v.12 says "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE [*before all these* beginning of birth pangs just mentioned in vv.8-11]"... BEFORE ALL THOSE, the 70ad events of vv.12-24a must happen PRIOR TO those).

Matthew 24:4-8 then PICKS UP THE SCENE at [/speaking OF] the "beginning of birth pangs"... and then the passage describes what unfolds from there (with v.15[21] FOLLOWING the beginning of birth pangs... therefore is NOT describing the 70ad events, which [sequentially] PRECEDE THEM, see).





So... Matthew 24:15[21] is NOT describing the same events that Lk21:23,20-21 does... because of these SEQUENCE issues in the Olivet Discourse. They are TWO DISTINCT "SEE-then-FLEE" events (occurring at wholly differing time-slots!) Many people overlook this fact.
 

GaryA

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Well, Matthew 24:4 and following (through chpt 25) is not about the events surrounding 70ad.

Luke 21:12-24a is about the events surrounding 70ad (and note that v.12 says "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE [*before all these* beginning of birth pangs just mentioned in vv.8-11]"... BEFORE ALL THOSE, the 70ad events of vv.12-24a must happen PRIOR TO those).

Matthew 24:4-8 then PICKS UP THE SCENE at [/speaking OF] the "beginning of birth pangs"... and then the passage describes what unfolds from there (with v.15[21] FOLLOWING the beginning of birth pangs... therefore is NOT describing the 70ad events, which [sequentially] PRECEDE THEM, see).





So... Matthew 24:15[21] is NOT describing the same events that Lk21:23,20-21 does... because of these SEQUENCE issues in the Olivet Discourse. They are TWO DISTINCT "SEE-then-FLEE" events (occurring at wholly differing time-slots!) Many people overlook this fact.
BZZZZZZZZZZT

Nope - Sorry - Wrong Answer.

Matthew 24:15-20 (+21) is most definitely talking about the events circa 70 A.D.

Only one "SEE-then-FLEE" - circa 70 A.D.

No future "SEE-then-FLEE" is recorded in Bible End Times Prophecy.