Why do Christians believe in a place of torment called Hell?

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TheLearner

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Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

The verb above is in the Hiphil tense:
H8045
????
sha^mad
BDB Definition:
1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to be annihilated, be exterminated
1a2) to be destroyed, be devastated
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to annihilate, exterminate
1b2) to destroy
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2406
The Hiphil stem is generally used to express causative action in active voice. In many cases the noun derived from the same root is the object or result of the hiphil verb associated with that root. For example, the Hiphil verb הִמְטִיר means “to cause to rain down”; the noun מָטָר means “rain”.
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Causative action means that the subject of the verb is causing the object of the verb either to perform the verbal action (for dynamic verb) or to be in the state described by the verb (for stative verbs). The Hiphil stem usually serves this causative function with dynamic verbs (and sometimes with stative verbs also). A good example is the verb בּוֹא. In the Qal stem, the verb בּוֹא expresses the simple action “to come” or “to go”. But in the Hiphil stem, the verb בּוֹא expresses the causative action “to bring” (meaning, to cause something to come/go). In English, causative action is expressed using the main verb “to cause” paired with the infinitive of the verbal action in view. In Biblical Hebrew, the causative nature of the verbal action is expressed by the Hiphil form of the verb itself with no additional verbal element.
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Expresses various kinds of simple or causative action
In Biblical Hebrew, some verbs are found only in the Hiphil stem (and/or its derivative stem formations). In these cases, the Hiphil usually expresses a simple action which is causative by its very nature. A good example is the Hebrew verb סוּת, which occurs only in the Hiphil stem and means “to incite” or “to entice”. A dictionary or lexicon will indicate all the stem formations in which a particular verb is found as well as the appropriate meaning(s).

...
The Hiphil stem can also be used to express miscellaneous kinds of simple or causative action that might not follow any of the other descriptions listed above. As always, the specific meaning of the verb will be indicated by a dictionary or lexicon.

Hiphil stem expressing idiomatic action"
https://uhg.readthedocs.io/en/latest/stem_hiphil.html
 
Aug 20, 2021
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Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. forgot y i looked this up
 
Aug 20, 2021
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idiomatic action" can not be understood buy observation alone[liked it's raining cats& dogs] can't be understood by words alone
 
Aug 20, 2021
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2 pray and fast to break all bonds including r lack of understanding
 

TheLearner

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Good day, Magenta,

First of all, I am well aware that the meaning of the translated word "forever" does not always mean forever. The Greek word aion/aionios can mean 'a cycle of time, an age or eternal, i.e. never ending. Regarding your examples, such as mixing Jude with Ezekiel, this is not a good comparison.


"Sodom’s fiery judgment is ‘eternal’ (Jude 7),

The above is referring to the eternal judgment of the people of Sodom, after the death of the bodies, where they will spend eternity in the lake of fire

"until… God ‘will restore the fortunes of Sodom’ (Eze. 16:53-55)."

While this part in Ezekiel is referring to God restoring Sodom on the earth.

And secondly, in your examples you have shown something to be eternal and then restored in order to prove that punishment in the lake of fire is temporary, i.e. those who get tossed in are burned up. However, none of scriptures that we have presented to you have any such restorations or retractions. For example:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Your not going to find any other scripture that contradicts or retracts the word 'destruction' to non-destruction. And as I have pointed out to you many times, the Greek word 'apoleia' translated 'destruction' does not imply nonexistence/annihilation. It states this right in the definition of the word.

Regarding your attempt at cross-referencing scriptures, the context must be addressed first. What you are doing is the same thing that amillennists do to disprove the meaning of a literal thousand years by going to Psalm 50:10 and then applying the same meaning from there to Rev.20 when Satan is bound for a thousand years. The context reveals the meaning of the use of a word or the meaning of what is being conveyed.

=====================================
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("destruction") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

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As you can see from the definition of the word apoleia above (in Red), it does not imply annihilation. Therefore, the apoleia/destruction that Jesus is referring to in the scripture is referring to eternal, never ending loss of well being in the lake of fire. It is the same with the following:

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

It is the same with the verse above in that, you will not find a retraction or contradiction, stating that the eternal punishment isn't eternal, as in your examples. But what really cements in the meaning of never ending-conscious-punishment, is the fact that the same word 'aionios' translated as 'eternal' is used to describe the condition for both the wicked and the righteous. Therefore, whatever definition you apply to one has to mean the same for the other. Since we know in the verse above that eternal life for the righteous is conscious, never ending life in the kingdom, then aionios/eternal must mean conscious, never ending punishment for the wicked.

In short, you can't have aionios for the righteous mean never ending life and then have aionios for the wicked mean annihilation in the same verse. They have to retain the same meaning. If you interpret eternal as being temporary for the wicked, then eternal life for the righteous would also have to be temporary.

forever and ever, eternal, everlasting, no rest day of night, torment rising up forever and ever, are all supporting words which demonstrate unending punishment for the wicked.
interesting
 

TheLearner

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Psalm 50:10

Easy-to-Read Version



10 I already own all the animals in the forest.
I own all the animals on a thousand hills.


Psalm 50
Easy-to-Read Version
One of Asaph’s songs.
50 The Lord God Most Powerful has spoken.
He calls to everyone on earth, from where the sun rises to where it sets.
2 God appeared from Zion, the city of perfect beauty.[a]
3 Our God is coming and will not keep quiet.
Fire burns in front of him.
There is a great storm around him.
4 He tells the sky and the earth to be witnesses
as he judges his people.
5 He says, “My followers, gather around me.
Come, my worshipers, who made an agreement with me.”

6 God is the judge,
and the skies tell how fair he is. Selah

7 God says, “My people, listen to me!
People of Israel, I will show my evidence against you.
I am God, your God.
8 The problem I have with you is not your sacrifices
or the burnt offerings you bring to me everyday.
9 Why would I want more bulls from your barns
or goats from your pens?
10 I already own all the animals in the forest.
I own all the animals on a thousand hills.
11 I know every bird in the mountains.
Everything that moves in the fields is mine.
12 If I were hungry, I would not ask you for food.
I already own the world and everything in it.
13 I don’t eat the meat of bulls or drink the blood of goats.”

14 You made promises to God Most High, so give him what you promised.
Bring your sacrifices and thank offerings.
15 God says, “Call me when trouble comes.
I will help you, and you will honor me.”

16 But God says to the wicked,
“Stop quoting my laws!
Stop talking about my agreement!
17 You hate for me to tell you what to do.
You ignore what I say.
18 You see a thief and run to join him.
You jump into bed with those who commit adultery.
19 You say evil things and tell lies.
20 You sit around talking about people,
finding fault with your own brothers.
21 When you did these things, I said nothing.
So you thought that I was just like you.
But I will not be quiet any longer.
I will correct you and make clear what I have against you.
22 You people who have forgotten God,
understand what I am telling you,
or I will tear you apart,
and no one will be able to save you!
23 Whoever gives a thank offering shows me honor.
And whoever decides to live right will see my power to save.”
 

TheLearner

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Why would I be upset? If Jesus is wrong and there's no eternal Hell fire then I have nothing to worry about. Wish I could say the same for you.

"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

Luke 16:22-28 (NKJV)
22 The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
you have no way of knowing where people here are going. so, please stop it. And Claim down.

I already have readers calling me.
 

TheLearner

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So what? It's not same fire that is in lake of fire. Judgement day hasn't even happened for rich man in that passage. Are you going to also cite burning bush verses to somehow support your position?

No one in the lake of fire will be alive. That's what bible tells us. That's what Jesus taught. People being alive in the lake of fire is not biblical and has ZERO biblical support.
Aside: We know the angel of the Lord was present. My theory is that angel was in its normal appearance that of a flaming fire.

Psalm 104:4
Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
 

TheLearner

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Try the KJV 1611. It has titles. I trust the kjv translators and the kjv source manuscripts. If it was a parable, they should have put it in the title.
There is no title in this KJV, nor does it say it is a parable.

"
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+16&version=KJV
 

TheLearner

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CS1

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Please show me in the word of God where it says angels have human bodies. and explain a Seraphim and the beast Crying day and night Holy Holy holy. The devil comes AS an angel of light, does that mean he is light or is he darkness?
 
Aug 22, 2021
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Please show me in the word of God where it says angels have human bodies. and explain a Seraphim and the beast Crying day and night Holy Holy holy. The devil comes AS an angel of light, does that mean he is light or is he darkness?
What if it means appearing as (disguised as) an angel (a messenger) of light (truth) disguised as a messenger of truth i.e. a false prophet ?
 

ewq1938

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Please show me in the word of God where it says angels have human bodies.

Angels don't have human bodies. They have bodies that look human ie: humanoid form but the flesh is made up of something different and better than human flesh. Every time an angel is seen in the bible, in heaven or the Earth, they look like a human man. People in Sodom thought angels were regular men etc. I have met an angel and can attest that look human but are not actually humans.
 

CS1

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What if it means appearing as (disguised as) an angel (a messenger) of light (truth) disguised as a messenger of truth i.e. a false prophet ?
Angel is messenger, light represents the truth that is why the devil comes as an angel of light but is no light at all he is deceptive and lies.
 

CS1

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Angels don't have human bodies. They have bodies that look human ie: humanoid form but the flesh is made up of something different and better than human flesh. Every time an angel is seen in the bible, in heaven or the Earth, they look like a human man. People in Sodom thought angels were regular men etc. I have met an angel and can attest that looks human but are not actually humans.
you did not have one biblical verse to support your claim? The People in Sodom slept with anything. They found out soon enough they were not men