Why do Dispensationalists teach Separation Theology?

[UnitedWithChrist]

By the way, I canceled my account due to reasons that are not related to the forum, so I won't be able to answer many more questions.

I would encourage dispensationalists to look into the problems with dispensationalism. Don't be sheeple, accepting what your pastors have told you.

I believe the only reason why dispensationalism is popular relates to the fact that Pentecostals/charismatics and "bible church" institutions adopted it. Since Pentecostals/charismatics are very involved in evangelism, it has spread like wildfire in the USA.

It isn't a salvation issue, but I think it causes believers to listen to whacky, end-time nuts on a regular basis.

Dispensationalists continually claim that if you don't believe their nutty system, you are not living in expectation of Jesus' return, therefore are living amorally. Well, only the most shallow Christians would operate on that basis. Any believer knows they aren't guaranteed their next breath, and need to live in anticipation of standing before Jesus in their next moment.

I would recommend these books:

https://smile.amazon.com/End-Times-...s+made+simple&qid=1568116391&s=gateway&sr=8-1

https://smile.amazon.com/Case-Amill...ay&sprefix=amillennialism+kim+,aps,151&sr=8-1

I would recommend these audios:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=126101523139
https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=126101519187
https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=126101510492

More than that, though, I encourage studying the doctrine of union with Christ. A big part of the reason why I find dispensationalism objectionable is due to their disregard for the doctrine. I suspect most Christians don't even understand the doctrine, and that is why they fall for dispensationalism.

Here's a good set of audios for this:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=716091812442
https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=716091814294
https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=716091815366
https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=716091816378

If a person is dispensational and understands union with Christ, I would ask, why?????? Have you not read Ephesians 2???????

There is only one man in Christ.

Soteriology, Christology, and Eschatology need to be in tandem.

By the way, I realize there are different types of dispensationalists. Some aren't as whacky as others.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Who?

I only know of one person here who says Jews are saved differently than gentiles. The rest of us who hold to dispensational thinking know that there is no jew or greek. All are saved by the one who saves all. The promised one, in whome all the nations of the world will be blessed.

We are not talking about this part of the covenant. though

ANd PS. As I said earlier the church is not removed so Jew can be punished, that is not what scripture says. so not sure who told you this is what we think

I don't remember using the word "punish". I may have, but I don't remember using it and I don't have time to search through the posts again. I should have used "suffer" if I did.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't remember using the word "punish". I may have, but I don't remember using it and I don't have time to search through the posts again. I should have used "suffer" if I did.

The bible says the believers will suffer It does not say the jews who do what God told them to do will suffer in that time period.

so again, Not sure why you think we believe this.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

When this discussion boils down to it's essence, this is why I don't believe in dispensationalism:

The constant claim is that non-dispensationalists believe God is a liar and takes back his promises. This is not true.

All unconditional promises God made will be fulfilled in the manner in which he intended. Period. God is totally faithful.

As I have said, though, there are questions about the nature of the promises that need to be asked and answered. Was a given promise unconditional? If it was conditional, did the Israelites fulfill the conditions? If it was unconditional, was it already fulfilled in some way? When it was (or is) fulfilled, did God fulfill it (or will he fulfill it) in an even more spectacular and expansive way than you may think? Additionally, is it fulfilled in Christ or the Church (remember, Jesus is a literal descendant of Abraham, and every believer is a spiritual descendant of Abraham too, so if it is fulfilled in them, then it is still fulfilled).

As an example, in Romans 4 it says Abraham is the heir of the entire world, and that his descendants are not only physical descendants but also spiritual descendants through being joined to Christ.

Therefore the land promises to Abraham are fulfilled by giving the entire world to Abraham and his descendants, which include Christ and believers.

I believe another big issue is the assumption that Israel was obedient to the terms of conditional promises, when they were NOT. In fact, they were thrown out of the land due to their disobedience. Anyone reading the Old Testament can see this. If they didn't fulfill the conditions, they aren't entitled to the promises.

I would need to parse through every single promise, to determine whether it was conditional or not, and determine whether the conditions were fulfilled.

At any rate, I know God is faithful. The questions I asked above are the issues. Don't be sheeple.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

repost from yesterday. Can you respond please?

What are the specific Scriptures?

By the way, I quoted Romans 4 to you, where it says Abraham and his descendants are the heirs of the whole WORLD, not just Palestine.

And, since the believer, Jew or Gentile, is joined with Jesus and shares his inheritance, this means all saved individuals share in this inheritance.

Therefore, the promises made to Israel are even grander and more inclusive than initially expressed to Abraham.

The blessings that Gentiles receive are not only spiritual blessings in Christ. They include inheritance of all things.

Which scripture passages are you looking for? Here are a few..

Gen 12:
12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Gen 15: -
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

Gen 17: Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of [b]many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called [c]Abram, but your name shall be [d]Abraham; for I have made you a father of [e]many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in[f] which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

gen 26:
There was a famine in the land, besides the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went to Abimelech king of the Philistines, in Gerar.
2 Then the Lord appeared to him and said: “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. 4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

Gen 28:
Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
13 And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: “I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants. 14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed. 15 Behold, I am with you and will keep[c] you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you.”


Romans 4 does not counter these verses. Forever means forever!

Romans 4 is talking about the fulfilment of the words "In you shall al the nations of the earth be blessed" it has nothign to do with the above highlighted promises or gifts God gave a nation called Israel

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When this discussion boils down to it's essence, this is why I don't believe in dispensationalism:

The constant claim is that non-dispensationalists believe God is a liar and takes back his promises. This is not true.

All unconditional promises God made will be fulfilled in the manner in which he intended. Period. God is totally faithful.

As I have said, though, there are questions about the nature of the promises that need to be asked and answered. Was a given promise unconditional? If it was conditional, did the Israelites fulfill the conditions? If it was unconditional, was it already fulfilled in some way? When it was (or is) fulfilled, did God fulfill it (or will he fulfill it) in an even more spectacular and expansive way than you may think? Additionally, is it fulfilled in Christ or the Church (remember, Jesus is a literal descendant of Abraham, and every believer is a spiritual descendant of Abraham too, so if it is fulfilled in them, then it is still fulfilled).

As an example, in Romans 4 it says Abraham is the heir of the entire world, and that his descendants are not only physical descendants but also spiritual descendants through being joined to Christ.

Therefore the land promises to Abraham are fulfilled by giving the entire world to Abraham and his descendants, which include Christ and believers.

I believe another big issue is the assumption that Israel was obedient to the terms of conditional promises, when they were NOT. In fact, they were thrown out of the land due to their disobedience. Anyone reading the Old Testament can see this. If they didn't fulfill the conditions, they aren't entitled to the promises.

I would need to parse through every single promise, to determine whether it was conditional or not, and determine whether the conditions were fulfilled.

At any rate, I know God is faithful. The questions I asked above are the issues. Don't be sheeple.

this is not true, And this is why I can not believe in Amill or any other doctrine that teches God will take back his promise to israel.

God promised Abraham he would have descendants all over the earth of and that all nations wil be blessed. this was fulfilled with christ.

As shown in my last post. He also promised one son, and all of their descendants a property, and said this inheritance is an eternal promise.

If God is no longer going to keep his promise. then God has relented and went back on his own word. Fact is, if he did this to israel. nothing is keeping him from keeping his promise to us.

OT prophesy even Pau in rom 11 says God will not only keep his promise, but one day Israel WILL REPENT. and when they do. He WILL bring them back to their land because he never forgets his promises.. As paul said, his gifts are irrevokable.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The bible says the believers will suffer It does not say the jews who do what God told them to do will suffer in that time period.

so again, Not sure why you think we believe this.

The bible says the believers will suffer It does not say the jews who do what God told them to do will suffer in that time period.

so again, Not sure why you think we believe this.

Where do the believing Jews belong, when the Rapture occurs?

Do they belong with the Church, and experience the Rapture, or do they go through the Tribulation?

How does Separation Theology treat them? Perhaps that is the source of my misunderstanding.

My guess is that Separation Theology leaves them on earth to witness, so they suffer through the Tribulation....but to be honest, my intuition indicates that you guys don't know because your doctrine isn't well defined

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

this is not true, And this is why I can not believe in Amill or any other doctrine that teches God will take back his promise to israel.

God promised Abraham he would have descendants all over the earth of and that all nations wil be blessed. this was fulfilled with christ.

As shown in my last post. He also promised one son, and all of their descendants a property, and said this inheritance is an eternal promise.

If God is no longer going to keep his promise. then God has relented and went back on his own word. Fact is, if he did this to israel. nothing is keeping him from keeping his promise to us.

OT prophesy even Pau in rom 11 says God will not only keep his promise, but one day Israel WILL REPENT. and when they do. He WILL bring them back to their land because he never forgets his promises.. As paul said, his gifts are irrevokable.

So, you believe that every single one of the descendants of Abraham will inherit the land of Israel?

What about the ones that are going to eternal punishment?

Do you believe God will resurrect them, and let them live in the land, and then send them to eternal punishment at the end?

If he promised it unconditionally, then it seems like you believe those who are going to eternal punishment deserve these promises.

My position would be that Jesus is a physical descendant of Abraham, and Abraham and his descendants are given the entire globe. Those joined with Jesus receive the entire globe, too.

READ ROMANS 4.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where do the believing Jews belong, when the Rapture occurs?

Do they belong with the Church, and experience the Rapture, or do they go through the Tribulation?

How does Separation Theology treat them? Perhaps that is the source of my misunderstanding.

My guess is that Separation Theology leaves them on earth to witness, so they suffer through the Tribulation....but to be honest, my intuition indicates that you guys don't know because your doctrine isn't well defined

All believers alive on earth or dead in Christ when the events of 1 thess 4, will be caught up (rapture) with Christ and meet him in the sky, where that be pre-trib, mid trib or post trib, There is no difference, jew or gentile

seperation theology? Never heard of it, can you explain it to me.

And your guess? Again, Not sure where you are being told these things, I know there is one group who has these odd ideas. but they are a small group and do not speak for all of those who believe in dispensations.. I am starting to wonder if you even understand what a dispensation is..

 

[Melach]

By the way, I canceled my account due to reasons that are not related to the forum, so I won't be able to answer many more questions.

I would encourage dispensationalists to look into the problems with dispensationalism. Don't be sheeple, accepting what your pastors have told you.

I believe the only reason why dispensationalism is popular relates to the fact that Pentecostals/charismatics and "bible church" institutions adopted it. Since Pentecostals/charismatics are very involved in evangelism, it has spread like wildfire in the USA.

It isn't a salvation issue, but I think it causes believers to listen to whacky, end-time nuts on a regular basis.

i like those 'wacky' end time nuts as you call them.

99% of pastors and preachers i listen to are dispensational pre-trib. i cant deny it they got the best sermons.

what you said that its spread like wildfire cause charismatics are very involved in evangelism.... maybe we should follow suite? all the other churches are dying because they arent doing anything, its just the same people and no new people are coming in because nothing is done outside church walls.

most pentecostals i know dont even know what word dispensational means, or any doctrine really, they just believe in the pre-trib rapture, speaking in tongues and salvation by works while claiming salvation by grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So, you believe that every single one of the descendants of Abraham will inherit the land of Israel?

According to the word, it is theirs, even today,

Now mosaic law gives them requimrents for actually bneing able to use their own land. and punishments if they do nto live up to those standard.

What about the ones that are going to eternal punishment?

Do you see anyplace in those passages where God says they will not inherit the land on earth? where are the requirments given?

As for what happens to them after they leave this earth, well you answered you own question

Do you believe God will resurrect them, and let them live in the land, and then send them to eternal punishment at the end?

WHAT?? come on man, You expect me to respond to this type of questioning?

If he promised it unconditionally, then it seems like you believe those who are going to eternal punishment deserve these promises.

lol. If it is unconditional. then NO ONE CAN DESERVE IT.

do you DESERVE your salvation?

We are talking about a piece of property on physical earth. not the afterlife..

when the jews went in, they disobeyed god and di not do as he told them to do. did they DESERVE the land?

My position would be that Jesus is a physical descendant of Abraham, and Abraham and his descendants are given the entire globe. Those joined with Jesus receive the entire globe, too.

READ ROMANS 4.

1. I did read romans 4. and already explained that
2. You have still failed to respond to the promise god gave to ONE NATION.

will you respind or keep trying to ask nonsensical questions?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

View attachment 203876

Brother

when people already tell you they belong to the church and you keep making these responses as if you do not hear us

You make yourself look bad.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

i like those 'wacky' end time nuts as you call them.

99% of pastors and preachers i listen to are dispensational pre-trib. i cant deny it they got the best sermons.

what you said that its spread like wildfire cause charismatics are very involved in evangelism.... maybe we should follow suite? all the other churches are dying because they arent doing anything, its just the same people and no new people are coming in because nothing is done outside church walls.

most pentecostals i know dont even know what word dispensational means, or any doctrine really, they just believe in the pre-trib rapture, speaking in tongues and salvation by works while claiming salvation by grace.

John MacArthur is pretty good..Steven Lawson is ok. I cannot deny that some dispensationalists know the Bible well in most respects.



We should follow suit in evangelism. Charismatics/Pentecostals are exemplary in this respect.

And, you are right..I don't really find that most dispensationalists can even tell me what they believe. The doctrine is elusive to nail down....the biggest common denominator, though, is a separation between the Church and Israel. That's why I am using this phrase Separation Theology. It is my response to their "replacement theology".

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

According to the word, it is theirs, even today,

Now mosaic law gives them requimrents for actually bneing able to use their own land. and punishments if they do nto live up to those standard.


Do you see anyplace in those passages where God says they will not inherit the land on earth? where are the requirments given?

As for what happens to them after they leave this earth, well you answered you own question


WHAT?? come on man, You expect me to respond to this type of questioning?



lol. If it is unconditional. then NO ONE CAN DESERVE IT.

do you DESERVE your salvation?

We are talking about a piece of property on physical earth. not the afterlife..

when the jews went in, they disobeyed god and di not do as he told them to do. did they DESERVE the land?





1. I did read romans 4. and already explained that
2. You have still failed to respond to the promise god gave to ONE NATION.

will you respind or keep trying to ask nonsensical questions?

My response is that Abraham and his descendants will possess the entire globe. His descendants include his spiritual and physical descendants, who were/are believers, because they have been joined with Christ, who is an Israelite. Romans 4.

 

[Melach]

John MacArthur is pretty good..Steven Lawson is ok. I cannot deny that some dispensationalists know the Bible well in most respects.



We should follow suit in evangelism. Charismatics/Pentecostals are exemplary in this respect.

And, you are right..I don't really find that most dispensationalists can even tell me what they believe. The doctrine is elusive to nail down....the biggest common denominator, though, is a separation between the Church and Israel. That's why I am using this phrase Separation Theology. It is my response to their "replacement theology".

sad to see you go. you are a friendly guy
hope you come back.

when you read "israel" in the o.t. do you think its talking about the church? or the future israel?

if i read for example that jerusalem is exalted, all people know God like in zechariah, and i read that nations go to war against Judah and/or Israel. i understand it to mean its israel the people.

what about you? reason i understand it the way i do is because i think its just the regular reading of the verse like if it means church you have to just re-write every verse to read "go to war against church". some commentators believed that but why would God bring all nations to go war against His church? makes more sense that its the unbelieving israel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My response is that Abraham and his descendants will possess the entire globe. His descendants include his spiritual and physical descendants, who were/are believers, because they have been joined with Christ, who is an Israelite. Romans 4.

Then why did god promise one child (not all) and his descendents land

You have yet to answer that question.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My response is that Abraham and his descendants will possess the entire globe. His descendants include his spiritual and physical descendants, who were/are believers, because they have been joined with Christ, who is an Israelite. Romans 4.

Lets try something new, Maybe then you will see what I am saying.

Using one passage.

Gen 17: Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of [b]many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called [c]Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

The above answer, and romans 4 focuses on the highlighted part of this promise God gave to abraham.

What I want to discuss is the rest of the passage, Which I will highlight here

Gen 17: Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of [b]many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called [c]Abram, but your name shall be [d]Abraham; for I have made you a father of [e]many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

we know this promise was only given to one SON (Isaac) and even after this, only one of his sons (Jacob, later called Israel) and to all 12 of Jacobs sons and all of their descendants. and NOT to any of abraham or Isaac's other children (Ishmael and Esau to name a few)

so if this is an ETERNAL promise. Is it still in effect today or did God relent on this promise?

 

[Absolutely]

OK perhaps I'll read this detail sometime, but I don't believe in a "rapture" in the sense of the Church bailing out and letting the Jews take a beating.

I am getting so many replies on this thread that it's hard to keep up. I like you even though you're a dispensationalist, though

You malign those that are waiting for their messiah.
Not very wise.

Some member once said "i can not serve a God that kills puppies and babies"...pointing at the flood.

A quick change of prisms reveals the truth.
Why was all living on earth killed?
Sin
The horrors of sin.
Sin did that.

You somehow er in the component of Gods purposes

 

[Absolutely]

By the way, I am not into normal covenant theology...I imagine someone will ask that.

I adhere to 1689 Federalism. That means I believe the Mosaic Covenant was typological, and never promised eternal life. It was typological of the New Covenant, and only promised long life in the land. As a result, the nation of Israel was exiled from the land.

This is typological of how Adam and Eve were exiled from the Garden of Eden, and how the lost will be exiled from the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21-22).

This post appears to me that you are clergy.