Why do people not understand.. Dead means dead.

[eternally-gratefull]

Being physically dead and spiritually dead are two different things. Your example suggests only physical death, yet someone who is spiritually dead but not physically dead can do an obedient act. This is proven by Christ who said, "Let the dead bury the dead." How can the physically dead bury the physically dead? That would be impossible, like your example. However, contrary to your example, Christ meant that the spiritually dead should bury the physically dead so that the man he was talking to would have no excuse to not follow Him right then. When we OBEY by getting baptized we are raised out of the water alive with the Holy Spirit. The bible says that God will punish those who know not God, and OBEY not the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. The work during baptism is spiritual- not physical, and God does the work, not you- for the work that He does is circumcission. (Colossians chapter 2).

Doing a physical act is not the question here. One who is physically alive can do a physical act.

What is in question, is doing a act that is not self focused, Self preserving, and self motivating. A spiritually dead person are unable to do this, because they are spiritually dead. They can not please God, and can do nothing.

It must be made alive before it can do an outward, unselfish act of trusting God and pleasing him.

A dead man can not walk to the baptismal. A spiritually dead man can not be baptised for the proper reasons. It would be self focused. because that is all the dead flesh can do.

If your not washed by the blood of the lamb, and renewed by the HS (titus 3: 5) Your baptism is useless.

God does do circumcision as you correctly said in colossians 2. But you missed the point of HOW God circumcises us. By baptising us into Christ. It is God baptising us, The baptism of God is what cleanses us, not the baptism of man.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"The good works that follow are a result of the Holy Spirit inward working in us, such as Abraham's (almost ) sacrifice of his son."


Hebrews 11 speaks of Abraham obeying God by faith. He didn't have the help of the 'indwelling' Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 11 goes much along with James 2 - wouldn't you say?

It goes right with Eph 2 also.

Abraham was saved by grace through faith, not of works. And in his newly created state, he did the works he was created to do. Which proves his faith was not dead. but a real saving faith, and not a mere belief.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In the Word of God - 'works' equals "Obedience" to His N.T. Commandments or commands - other wise know as "keeping His Word" & obeying [being led by] His Spirit of Truth [Rom 8] and that without that "obedience" - a person is neither In Him nor in His Love.

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." John 15:10.

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14:23

works equals works. whether the works of the law. Works of faith, or works of obedience.

A work is a work is a work.

God created in christ us for good works.

If your not in Christ, All the work in the world will not save you.

 

[newbirth]

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


We are saved by grace through faith not by works. Again, FAITH comes FIRST - faith wrought his works. faith and works go together - faith is what helps one do the work.

God bless you also.

you admit faith and works go together....which is what the scripture says...faith without works is dead...which means faith comes with a works requirement.....it is not something to help you do work...if you separate the work requirement you make faith dead...
there is works of the law and works of faith...if you believe what the scripture says... you do it ...else you are only saying you believe

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All right, I'll adjust the logic tree.
[HR][/HR]

• If one is saved, then he will produce good works, because good works are fruits of salvation.

• If good works are fruits of salvation, then they are results of salvation.

• If they are results of salvation, then they are beneficial to the kingdom of God, because anything that is done for the kingdom of God is meritorious.

• Therefore, good works are required for the growth of the kingdom of God.

• If one refuses to perform good works, then he is not contributing to the growth of the kingdom of God, because good works are fruits of salvation.

• Therefore, good works are required for salvation.

This is according to James
2:14-26
3:13-18

You were right on until the last two points.

A child of God is created for good works.

He has the spirit of God who will chasten him when he gets out of line

More importantly, he trusts God, not only for his salvation, but that he needs to change (he truly repented, and has true faith)

Thus

1. Yes good works are required for the kingdom to grow, and also required for the person to grow.
2. Those who have true faith WILL do those works (it may vary how many, or what type, we all grow at different levels, and God has gifted us differently)
3. Thus your conclusion should be. Faith is required for salvation. Those who have true faith WILL do good works.

 

[newbirth]

works equals works. whether the works of the law. Works of faith, or works of obedience.

A work is a work is a work.

God created in christ us for good works.

If your not in Christ, All the work in the world will not save you.

pure ignorance....if all works are the same ....you make all works either good or evil....if all works are good then all men are saved and if all works are evil then all men are doomed....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, and He "Foreknew" by His "Foreknowledge" who would be "faith-ful" unto the end before the foundation of the earth and those are they whom He calls His Elect ... His overcomers ... His righteous servants ... His Sheep ... His Chosen.

1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow ...

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

And how do we know who are His elect or those that He foreknew would remain faith-ful .... by obedience.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.


John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.


1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.

1John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


2John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

So God knows, but he does not know.

Which is it? either he knows, and saved you before time began like he said.

Or he saved people, and then for some reason, they do somethign he did not know what they were going to do. causing him to remove his gift to them

The second part is a slam on God and his character. and this is what legalists teach, whether they agree or not does not matter, this is what they teach

 

[newbirth]

I disagree.

One can not believe until they repent.

How can you believe in the gospel. when you still are self focused. self centered, and in the flesh?

You have to change your thinking in order to have faith in Christ.

This comes by hearing the word. and having it cut through the heart.

more ignorance....faith / belief comes by hearing....a man's first encounter with God's word...the word tells us what is right and what is wrong....when we agree with the word then we can change our mind from doing wrong to doing right..(repent)...you want to change your mind before you believe by hearing...if you did not believe the gospel first you would not know you were

self focused. self centered, and in the flesh

you are assuming that when someone submit to Christ and repents it is the first time they are hearing the word....most times God's word was at work in a person years before their submission to Christ....

 

[p_rehbein]

I disagree.

One can not believe until they repent.

How can you believe in the gospel. when you still are self focused. self centered, and in the flesh?

You have to change your thinking in order to have faith in Christ.

This comes by hearing the word. and having it cut through the heart.

It's called being "under conviction" by the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit moves upon a persons heart, and causes them to become acutely aware of their sinfulness, and their need for God, they become "convicted" of their sinfulness. Because of this "conviction," some believe that they truly are sinful and in need of the salvation only God can give, and they choose to humble themselves before Him and ask forgiveness.........."repentance." A lot of times this happens during Church services at the "Alter call," but can happen anywhere, anytime.

You answered the question yourself with your last two sentences..........one hears the preaching of the Good News, the Holy Spirit moves upon that persons heart bringing them under conviction, the person realizes that it is true (believes) and chooses to repent and ask God to forgive them.

Why on earth would anyone "repent" if they did not "believe?" There would be no reason to.........

God bless

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's called being "under conviction" by the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit moves upon a persons heart, and causes them to become acutely aware of their sinfulness, and their need for God, they become "convicted" of their sinfulness. Because of this "conviction," some believe that they truly are sinful and in need of the salvation only God can give, and they choose to humble themselves before Him and ask forgiveness.........."repentance."

The bolded part is repentance. This is the change of heart and mind caused by the spirit.

Because of this repentance (change of heart caused by the spirits conviction) they do as you say, they actually believe in the gospel, And cause them to call on the name of the lord to be saved.

A lot of times this happens during Church services at the "Alter call," but can happen anywhere, anytime.

I agree

You answered the question yourself with your last two sentences..........one hears the preaching of the Good News, the Holy Spirit moves upon that persons heart bringing them under conviction, the person realizes that it is true (believes) and chooses to repent and ask God to forgive them.

Again, It is the conviction, which caused the repenting, which caused the faith.
Repent means to change, to reverse direction, it is the change in our heart caused by the conviction, which causes our faith in Christ.

confession is not repenting, It is admition of guilt, caused by faith, which was caused by repentance.

Why on earth would anyone "repent" if they did not "believe?" There would be no reason to.........

God bless

lol. Nice one my friend,

But again it is backward. It should be, How on earth can anyone believe, if they have not yet repented (changed their thoughts from being against God, to accepting God.)

 

[p_rehbein]

Brother...........conviction is not repentance...........conviction is becoming aware of the NEED for repentance..........just saying

 

[p_rehbein]

Again, It is the conviction, which caused the repenting, which caused the faith.
Repent means to change, to reverse direction, it is the change in our heart caused by the conviction, which causes our faith in Christ.

confession is not repenting, It is admition of guilt, caused by faith, which was caused by repentance.



which is exactly what I said..........hearing, conviction, believing, repenting, salvation, faith.............

Faith with Belief it seems to me.........there is a difference, because there is more than one type of faith...........

Even if you insist on doing so, it is quite easy to see that the wee amount of faith needed to cause one to desire to repent can be given to them by the Holy Spirit when He brings them under conviction.

Conviction is not repentance......it is the awareness for the need for repentance..........




Why on earth would anyone "repent" if they did not "believe?" There would be no reason to.........

God bless


lol. Nice one my friend,

But again it is backward. It should be, How on earth can anyone believe, if they have not yet repented (changed their thoughts from being against God, to accepting God.)

They can believe because the Holy Spirit brings them under conviction AND REVEALS TO THEM the NEED for their repentance. Acknowledgement of one's separation from God, and the desire to be united with Him.......Many people (unsaved) are not "actively against God" in that they are out protesting against Him, they are simply apart from Him and, yes, this makes them sinners.........but when the Holy Spirit moves upon them and they are convicted of their sinfulness, and realize the need to be reconciled with God...........this is when they "repent."

Reconciliation it the goal

 

[newbirth]

Brother...........conviction is not repentance...........conviction is becoming aware of the NEED for repentance..........just saying

do you think EG is deceptive or really doesn't know ????

 

[p_rehbein]

do you think EG is deceptive or really doesn't know ????

No, he is not deceptive..............in my opinion, a good man who loves God.........

 

[p_rehbein]

To be clear..........salvation is not earned by any work of man, for there is no work that any man can do that is worthy of salvation. Scripture makes this abundantly clear.

Even IF a man is brought under conviction by the Holy Spirit, becomes aware of his sin, and desires to be reconciled with God, through repentance, this does not "earn" him salvation. For EVEN IN repentance, a man IS NOT worthy of salvation, for what price can a man pay for salvation? None. It is ONLY by the Grace of God, His being faithful to do what He said He would do, that a man is saved, and that is a gift from God, not of works of man..........just saying........

Simplistic example...........a man steals a loaf of bread, that man is caught, brought to trial, the evidence against him is presented to a Judge..........the man realizes that he is truly guilty of the crime, repents of his guilt and asks the Judge to forgive him..............Judge says:

1) You are truly sorry for your crime, but the Law is the Law, and while I acknowledge your repentance, I still find you guilty and sentence you to.............................

2) You are truly sorry for your crime, and have repented, and thrown your self upon the MERCY of the Court......I said that if you would do this, I would forgive your crime, and not hold it against you ever again........Your crime is forgiven, forgotten, and I will remember it no more..........go and do no other crimes.........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Brother...........conviction is not repentance...........conviction is becoming aware of the NEED for repentance..........just saying

Brother, conviction causes repentance (a change of heart) that change of heart causes faith, which causes us to confess.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, It is the conviction, which caused the repenting, which caused the faith.

which is exactly what I said..........hearing, conviction, believing, repenting, salvation, faith.............

No. You still have it out of line, you just have a few things out of place.

Hearing (faith comes by hearing)
conviction (convicted of sin and judgement)
repenting (change of mind and heart)
faith (trust God and what he said in his word, ths trust causes you to call out on the name of the lord)
salvation (because of your trust and faith in Christ, and asking for his salvation, he saves you)

Faith with Belief it seems to me.........there is a difference, because there is more than one type of faith...........

I agree, Belief is a mere agreement, Faith is an actual trust. One can believe, yet not have faith, Which is th epoint James is trying to make.

Even if you insist on doing so, it is quite easy to see that the wee amount of faith needed to cause one to desire to repent can be given to them by the Holy Spirit when He brings them under conviction.

Lets try to not make a word means something it does not mean. Repent is not an action, it is a change. Repent causes the action (faith)
When I say I repent of something (if I was back in the OT times, or day of Christ) in a secular way, it means to change ones mind.

repent is not an native term english term, we must use the origional language to see what it means, that is all I am saying.

Conviction is not repentance......it is the awareness for the need for repentance..........

I never said conviction is repentance, not sure why you think I did.

They can believe because the Holy Spirit brings them under conviction AND REVEALS TO THEM the NEED for their repentance. Acknowledgement of one's separation from God, and the desire to be united with Him.......Many people (unsaved) are not "actively against God" in that they are out protesting against Him, they are simply apart from Him and, yes, this makes them sinners.........but when the Holy Spirit moves upon them and they are convicted of their sinfulness, and realize the need to be reconciled with God...........this is when they "repent."

Reconciliation it the goal

We agree here.

Just remember, one must change their hearts BEFORE they can learn to trust God. Yuo can not have faith in a God when you are not in agreement with what he says, and your belief apposes his, which all men who are not born again have.

 

[newbirth]

To be clear..........salvation is not earned by any work of man, for there is no work that any man can do that is worthy of salvation. Scripture makes this abundantly clear.

are you implying that I say man can earn salvation?

Even IF a man is brought under conviction by the Holy Spirit, becomes aware of his sin, and desires to be reconciled with God, through repentance, this does not "earn" him salvation. For EVEN IN repentance, a man IS NOT worthy of salvation, for what price can a man pay for salvation? None. It is ONLY by the Grace of God, His being faithful to do what He said He would do, that a man is saved, and that is a gift from God, not of works of man..........just saying........

scripture teaches faith comes by hearing....when one hears the word faith comes alive in him.....it is up to that person to obey the word of faith or disobey the word of faith....that is why many people say they received God in privacy when no one ministered to them....but the word was already planted long before they submitted.....God's word is alive....so now they can repent because they have now submitted to God's word

Simplistic example...........a man steals a loaf of bread, that man is caught, brought to trial, the evidence against him is presented to a Judge..........the man realizes that he is truly guilty of the crime, repents of his guilt and asks the Judge to forgive him..............Judge says:

1) You are truly sorry for your crime, but the Law is the Law, and while I acknowledge your repentance, I still find you guilty and sentence you to.............................

2) You are truly sorry for your crime, and have repented, and thrown your self upon the MERCY of the Court......I said that if you would do this, I would forgive your crime, and not hold it against you ever again........Your crime is forgiven, forgotten, and I will remember it no more..........go and do no other crimes........

the whole of mankind God concluded under sin as a result of Adam so is not about what we did....and the whole of mankind sins were paid for by Christ's blood we cannot pay for it....God has ordained a way for man to obtain remission of sins....and eternal life through Christ....repent and be baptised for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the HS....

 

[newbirth]

[/COLOR]

Hearing (faith comes by hearing)
conviction (convicted of sin and judgement)
repenting (change of mind and heart)
faith (trust God and what he said in his word, ths trust causes you to call out on the name of the lord)
salvation (because of your trust and faith in Christ, and asking for his salvation, he saves you)

you have faith first here because it comes by hearing....then conviction..then repent...then faith again....then salvation......
yet you say one must repent first....

I agree, Belief is a mere agreement, Faith is an actual trust. One can believe, yet not have faith, Which is th epoint James is trying to make.

belief and faith are used interchangeably....James was not trying to make a point as if he was not sure about what he was saying... ...he made a statement it is either you believe it or not.... faith without works is dead....
he never said this...[QUOTE]One can believe, yet not have faith,

what he said was ....[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Lets try to not make a word means something it does not mean. Repent is not an action, it is a change. Repent causes the action (faith)

where does the scripture teach this bro??? repentance causes faith???...you just said faith comes by hearing....

When I say I repent of something (if I was back in the OT times, or day of Christ) in a secular way, it means to change ones mind.

and how does changing your mind cause faith?

Just remember, one must change their hearts BEFORE they can learn to trust God.

how does one change their heart...before they trust God? or do they trust God to change their heart....

Yuo can not have faith in a God when you are not in agreement with what he says, and your belief apposes his, which all men who are not born again have.

then you do not believe faith comes by hearing....so you do not believe God's word...

 

[ChristIsGod]

So God knows, but he does not know.

Which is it? either he knows, and saved you before time began like he said.

Or he saved people, and then for some reason, they do somethign he did not know what they were going to do. causing him to remove his gift to them

The second part is a slam on God and his character. and this is what legalists teach, whether they agree or not does not matter, this is what they teach

Reading other posts before yours first ... this "will do GOOD WORKS" is a total misunderstanding of what Obedience to The Word of God IS.

THAT is 'doing' in the flesh and not "The Spirit of the Law" or "Walking in the Spirit [of Truth]".

Before I came on here, I was listening to Praise songs - not entertainment by whomsoever was on some stage, but the obvious focus was on HIM.

And before that - the LORD took me to these verses ... remembering that in the Greek, there were no punctuations...

Joh 14:15-24 IF ye love me, 'keep' my commandments, 'AND' I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of Truth [The Spirit of God and Christ]; Whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and 'shall be' in you. I will not leave you comfortless: 'I' will come to you.
Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
'He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them', he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will 'keep' my words: and my Father will love him, and 'we' will come unto him, and 'make our abode' with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

The 3 "conditional" statements here should be obvious to us unless we are myopic - only seeing the words that we choose or are 'conditioned' to see, rather than the Whole and That is our problem. FEW read the Whole - Every jot and tittle of what JESUS spoke.
We Need to get back to reading the Gospels again ... and John is the best place to start.
We Need to be quoting Him before we can understand Paul and then Paul's words will be seen in the context of the Whole.
"Works" is "Keeping HIS Commandments" without which we WILL NOT have HIS SPIRIT abiding IN us. Jesus said this a number of times and in other chpts - as given on the previous page of this thread.
We cannot have "the faith of Jesus" if we have do not have His Spirit abiding IN us and the above dialogue of Jesus to His disciple is the prerequisite to "having His Spirit abiding in us" and again - what does the verses above say are the prerequisites of The Spirit of God - the Spirit of the Three in One - The Spirit of Truth making His ABODE in us? It's Obvious.


Your replied to those "foreknowledge of God" quotes with ... "So God knows, but he does not know."
Not sure how you are coming up with this reply to that post but YES, HE FOREKNOWS.

God has given each man Freewill. Whether they decide to "obey His commandments" is totally up to them.
That He foreknows what they will do "in the end" doesn't change that each of us will stand before Him and be judged by whether we did or not, as He commanded.
He is gracious enough to show people WHY they are going to Hell and to show them [on that day] Where, how and what they have done to not merit His gift of Eternal Life. He is a Just God ... giving us especially in the free-world HIS WORD.
We are without excuse if we slice and dice His Words and allow man's teachings to cause us to not see what "is written".

He knows who will fall away as in the parable of the seeds sown in different places [different heart conditions]

He knows who was never sincere in the first place ... those that were never His at all.

I know people who are continually blaming and slamming this God that they claim to believe in for what is happening in their lives -- these will stand before Him and give an account and be shown by HIM every place that HE Tried to show them the truth and what/where their part in disobedience was when they were casting the fault on HIM.

If we walk in the Spirit and not the Flesh [IF WE HAVE HIS SPIRIT WITHIN US and not just a conditional mental assent to His Sacrifiece to keep us out of Hell] and we see above in those verses what His conditions are for His Indwelling - then we'll have the Spirit of Truth that reads, hears and obeys "every jot and tittle" of what came out of the mouth of 'The Word of God' made flesh.

We stand before the Judgment as in Matthew 13 or 15, Not for God to find out "something He did not know" [as you wrote above] but to show us WHY, WHERE, WHEN we did not OBEY what He said, that we had heard while on earth. He lets us know where we did and didn't obey His Will / Commands.

With just this part of His conversation from John --- WHO is Saved?

Call it "legalism" is you so choose - that's between you and The Word of GOD -- but HE is merciful, not wanting Any to perish ... but HE has "conditions" that go beyond some people's belief of "faith ALONE" and gives each more chances to get His Words / Commands straight and if we have a good beginning --- there is no one here that can say without a shadow of a doubt that we will "end well" in the days ahead - through all that we may go through. "Many will fall away" ... "Many are called but few are chosen" ... "Many will say unto Me in that day, Lord, Lord" ... "Narrow is the way and few there be that find it" ... "the five foolish virgins" didn't try to get what they needed until the last minute... yet were called 'virgins' waiting together with the others for the Bridegroom.

If this causes "fear" in some - GOOD - because without the fear of God, the chances are high that you don't Know or 'Love' Him ...

1 Peter 2:17 ....... Fear God .....

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Heb 12:25-29 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace,
whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: for our God is a consuming fire.
Rom 11:20, Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.





You decide if all of this is "legalism" or from The Word of God made flesh and also written.