Why do people not understand.. Dead means dead.

[peacefulbeliever]

you admit faith and works go together....which is what the scripture says...faith without works is dead...which means faith comes with a works requirement.....it is not something to help you do work...if you separate the work requirement you make faith dead...
there is works of the law and works of faith...if you believe what the scripture says... you do it ...else you are only saying you believe

What has been said is that you can't HAVE FAITH without works - that is not true. FAITH comes FIRST, FIRST, FIRST then the works. Abraham believed God - that was FIRST - THEN - he was circumcised - THEN - he had the confidence and trust [faith] in God to offer Isaac. So faith without works - is DEAD faith - is it NO faith? or is it lying DORMANT, doing nothing, not being energized or exercised - as in DEAD - as in imperfect? Abraham's works made his faith perfect.

James 2:22 - faith wrought with works - synergeo - 1. to work together, help in work, be partner in labour; 2. to put forth power together with and thereby to assist

James 2:24 by works a man is justified not by faith only - ergon - 1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied, A. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking; 2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind; 3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work - that faith you have is what energizes your works

You are saved by faith - but if works do not follow it is a DEAD faith - BUT if your faith is followed by good works then it is made perfect by those works. (2:22) We cannot say a man is justified freely in one chapter [Romans] of scripture then come along and contradict that in another chapter [James] of scripture. There has to be something wrong with our understanding - In scripture we need to see "to whom" specific scriptures are addressed - Romans is addressed to all who be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints [Romans 1:7] which would be the church. James is addressed to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad [James 1:1] Maybe there is the conundrum with our understanding - Honestly, I'm not sure, and honestly, I don't know! I just see a BIG, DIRECT contradiction and I know there shouldn't be any . . . .

 

[prove-all]

bible says There is some lords that do not get but one death.

The giants are also translated as "dead" or "deceased". They have no resurrection.

Isaiah 26:13 O LORD our God, other lords besides thee have had dominion over us:
but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.

14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.




For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains [pits] of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You decide if all of this is "legalism" or from The Word of God made flesh and also written.

Legalism is doing good works in order to have God save you, or stop you from losing salvation.

Faith based is doing good works because YOU TRUST God and his word. Your LOVE God for what he has done for you. And understanding the fact. Blessed is the one who (insert that ever good deed you can think of) not in order to receive salvation, or to keep it, but out of a love for God.

 

[dcontroversal]

Legalism is doing good works in order to have God save you, or stop you from losing salvation.

Faith based is doing good works because YOU TRUST God and his word. Your LOVE God for what he has done for you. And understanding the fact. Blessed is the one who (insert that ever good deed you can think of) not in order to receive salvation, or to keep it, but out of a love for God.

I agree and will add....

No doubt I like (Hezekiah 3:16)<---workers for salvation and their view of John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him and.....

1. Does many wonderful works
2. Is immersed, sprinkled and rolled in ice cream sprinkles
3. Back flips down the Isle while being slain in the spirit and speaking in 666 unknown tongues
4. Is a member of hickory stick church
5. Is circumcised, whacked, jacked and stacked
6. While praying through bleeding statues of Mary and
7. Preforming 7 sacraments and taking the Lord's supper 52 times a year

....should not perish, but is having everlasting life (disclaimer) unless they sin and loose that which is not losable unless you believe a gospel of a different kind.

 

[Ella85]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!! what the heck dcon hahaha

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree and will add....

No doubt I like (Hezekiah 3:16)<---workers for salvation and their view of John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him and.....

1. Does many wonderful works
2. Is immersed, sprinkled and rolled in ice cream sprinkles
3. Back flips down the Isle while being slain in the spirit and speaking in 666 unknown tongues
4. Is a member of hickory stick church
5. Is circumcised, whacked, jacked and stacked
6. While praying through bleeding statues of Mary and
7. Preforming 7 sacraments and taking the Lord's supper 52 times a year

....should not perish, but is having everlasting life (disclaimer) unless they sin and loose that which is not losable unless you believe a gospel of a different kind.

I am sure ya missed some points, in fact I am sure you could make a book out of all the points you missed. Maybe this is why John left them out of his epistle? He did not have enough paper to make the points necessary?

 

[dcontroversal]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!! what the heck dcon hahaha

Well, seeing how you know me personally Jo...you know I like to stir the pot and the ridiculousness of the post sets forth the folly of those who think they can work for their salvation.....If it is of works, then it is no longer of grace and my bible teaches grace based upon faith salvation which is eternal and cannot be lost!

 

[dcontroversal]

I am sure ya missed some points, in fact I am sure you could make a book out of all the points you missed. Maybe this is why John left them out of his epistle? He did not have enough paper to make the points necessary?

I agree, and yeah I am sure there are a few more to add especially out of the (BOOK of HEZEKIAH)<--yeah I know HAHA

 

[Ella85]

Well, seeing how you know me personally Jo...you know I like to stir the pot and the ridiculousness of the post sets forth the folly of those who think they can work for their salvation.....If it is of works, then it is no longer of grace and my bible teaches grace based upon faith salvation which is eternal and cannot be lost!

yes indeed!!! haha

 

[kennethcadwell]

Luke 6:46-49


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


Jesus is saying here that if you hear what He says and do them then your faith is a strong based faith that will not falter, but if you hear but don't do what He says then you have a weak based faith and if anything should arise to shake your faith then you can be easily swayed and fall out of grace. No salvation for these that falter.

Jesus never does say hear only and believe only, for He tells us what it means to believe in Him and that is in the scripture I just gave. " Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them "

 

[dcontroversal]

Luke 6:46-49


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


Jesus is saying here that if you hear what He says and do them then your faith is a strong based faith that will not falter, but if you hear but don't do what He says then you have a weak based faith and if anything should arise to shake your faith then you can be easily swayed and fall out of grace. No salvation for these that falter.

Jesus never does say hear only and believe only, for He tells us what it means to believe in Him and that is in the scripture I just gave. " Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them "

You still fail to understand that it is faith alone that saves...where is the word salvation found in your scripture post?

 

[kennethcadwell]

You still fail to understand that it is faith alone that saves...where is the word salvation found in your scripture post?

Just because that specific word is not in the scripture I posted does not mean it has nothing to do with salvation. That is a false assertion in teaching that only if it says particular words like saved, salvation, or eternal life then that is the only scriptures that apply.
You must go by all of our Lord Jesus teachings to know what a person who has a faith headed to salvation looks like.
In the scripture I gave for Luke 6:46-49, the Lord tells us about who has a strong base in their faith in Him, and who has a weak faith in Him. A strong faith person will hear and do His teachings, and a weak based only hears but does not do His teachings. Or like some do with a weak base, say some of His teachings are not needed or don't apply to us.

It goes on to say that a person with a weak faith can easily be shaken. Either a trial, tribulation in their life causes them to falter, or they are easily drawn to false teaching and deceived. In Matthew 25 we see more of the same teaching from the Lord. In three different parables He gives the underline meaning is the same in each, and that is only an obedient servant who stays firm in the faith by keeping and doing His commands will get eternal life.

How many times does Jesus have to say over and over again that obedience to Him by keep His commands, and doing His Fathers will tell one realizes that our actions do matter. Jesus says if you deny to help others, you deny Him.

If you say you have faith in the Lord, but do not repent of your sins...You are not saved

If you say you have faith in the Lord, but deny Him in the way you walk in life....You are not saved

Matthew 25:45-46

‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment,...............



Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate

 

[dcontroversal]

Just because that specific word is not in the scripture I posted does not mean it has nothing to do with salvation. That is a false assertion in teaching that only if it says particular words like saved, salvation, or eternal life then that is the only scriptures that apply.
You must go by all of our Lord Jesus teachings to know what a person who has a faith headed to salvation looks like.
In the scripture I gave for Luke 6:46-49, the Lord tells us about who has a strong base in their faith in Him, and who has a weak faith in Him. A strong faith person will hear and do His teachings, and a weak based only hears but does not do His teachings. Or like some do with a weak base, say some of His teachings are not needed or don't apply to us.

It goes on to say that a person with a weak faith can easily be shaken. Either a trial, tribulation in their life causes them to falter, or they are easily drawn to false teaching and deceived. In Matthew 25 we see more of the same teaching from the Lord. In three different parables He gives the underline meaning is the same in each, and that is only an obedient servant who stays firm in the faith by keeping and doing His commands will get eternal life.

How many times does Jesus have to say over and over again that obedience to Him by keep His commands, and doing His Fathers will tell one realizes that our actions do matter. Jesus says if you deny to help others, you deny Him.

If you say you have faith in the Lord, but do not repent of your sins...You are not saved

If you say you have faith in the Lord, but deny Him in the way you walk in life....You are not saved

Matthew 25:45-46

‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment,...............



Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate

Whatever......Galatians 1:6-7 and 3:1-3 contradicts your view....Faith plus works for or to keep salvation is a false Gospel Kenneth and has no power to save.....!

 

[Yahshua]

Legalism is doing good works in order to have God save you, or stop you from losing salvation.

Faith based is doing good works because YOU TRUST God and his word. Your LOVE God for what he has done for you. And understanding the fact. Blessed is the one who (insert that ever good deed you can think of) not in order to receive salvation, or to keep it, but out of a love for God.

I understand this is what you and others believe but this is not Legalism. This is incorrect.

Legalism is doing *ONE'S OWN* works in order to have God save you. See the subtle difference? What you described in your quote for "legalism" as well as the part of your "faith-based" definition (in turquoise) are the same thing. Both are describing "Faith based" works, because the actions in both of your definitions point to object of one's trust; God...and in particular, His word. In actual legalism the object of one's trust is one's *own* judgment.

The different is this: God said vs. Man said. Are the actions we take what "God said" to do or are they what "man said" to do?

In your quote, "good" is the term to pay attention to...whereas in the definition I've shared, "one's own" is the operative phrase to pay attention to. The Pharisees were condemned by Christ for performing "THERE OWN" works for righteousness which made honoring the Commandments of God of none effect (Christ continuously promoted his Father's commandments).

Good works = The works "God said" to do for him.
One's Own works = The works "man said" they would instead do for God.

Justification = Doing good works for God's righteousness.
Legalism (Phariseeism) = Doing one's *own* works for God's righteousness (i.e. self-righteousness).


Let's go into some examples...

Washing Hands before eating = Legalism
- Established by man (Pharisees)
- Ignored by Christ because God never said to do it

No Carrying anything (like one's Mat) on Sabbath = Legalism
- Established by man (Pharisees)
- Defied by Christ because God never said not to do it

Selling products in God's House = Legalism
- Establish by man (Pharisees)
- Condemned by Christ because God never said to do it

Using Purifying Water Pots = Legalism
- Established by man (Pharisees)
- Defied by Christ because God never said to do it

No Making Mud on Sabbath = Legalism
- Established by man (Pharisees)
- Defied by Christ because God never said not to do it

No eating Grain from field on Sabbath = Legalism
- Established by man (Pharisees)
- Defied by Christ because God never said not to do it

Worshiping on Mt. Garazim = Legalism
- Established by man (Samaritans)
- Condemned by Christ because God never said to do it

Divorcing just to avoid adultery (partner swapping) = Legalism
- Established by man (Pharisees) as legal loophole
- Condemned by Christ because it goes against the heart of what God said

Planned stoning of "just" the adulterous woman = Legalism
- Established by man (Pharisees) as legal loophole
- Ignored by Christ because it goes against what God said (*ALL* parties involved are to stand trial)

Obeying the Commandments of God = Eternal life = Never condemned by Christ
- Established by God
- Promoted by Christ (Matthew:19:17) because God said it
- Christ said man lives by what comes out of God's mouth. His commandments came out of his mouth
- Not until heaven and earth pass away...will it change

Matthew:15:8-9 " These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

So doing whatever man makes up to do for God, that God has not said to do, is actually "legalism" (Phariseeism), while doing whatever God said to do is actually "faith-based" (i.e. "hearing & doing"). So with this foundation set, what about the following...? In which category do the following fall: Faith-based or Legalism?


Keeping Sunday as Holy
- Established by man (Catholic Church)
- man said "this is resurrection day; 8th day"
- man said "it doesn't matter which day is holy"
- man said "all days are holy for God"
- man said "why would God have a problem?"
- man said "Christ is our Sabbath"

Keeping Sabbath as Holy
- Established by God
- God said "keep Sabbath holy"

Worshiping on Christmas as Holy Day
- Established by man (Catholic Church)
- man said "this is when we celebrate Christ birthday"
- man said "this is a time for getting together with family"
- man said "no one knows when Christ was born"
- man said "why would God have a problem?"

Worshiping on Feast of Tabernacles as Holy Day
- Established by God
- God said "do throughout *all* your generations"

Worshiping on Easter as Holy Day
- Established by man (Catholic Church)
- man said "this is when we celebrate Christ's resurrection"

Worshiping on Feast of Unleavened Bread as Holy Day
- Established by God
- God said "do throughout *all* your generations"

For which of these do we say "well *we* do this because..." and for which of these do we say "well God said..."? For which have we done exactly what the Pharisees and Samaritans have done, and for which have we yielded to God in faith?

This is the proper difference between "legalistic" works and "faith-based" works (i.e. "good works"). Faith = "hearing & doing" all of what God says.

 

[hopesprings]

I am usually not one for copying and pasting stuff but found this interesting....

In Christianity, legalism is the excessive and improper use of the law (10 commandments, holiness laws, etc). This legalism can take different forms. The first is where a person attempts to keep the Law in order to attain salvation. The second is where a person keeps the law in order to maintain his salvation. The third is when a Christian judges other Christians for not keeping certain codes of conduct that he thinks need to be observed. Let’s examine each one more closely.

The first kind of legalism is where the law of God is kept in order to attain salvation. This is a heresy, a completely false doctrine. We are not able to attain salvation by our keeping the law. Rom. 3:28, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.” Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” It is simply not possible to keep the Law enough to be saved. Therefore, to try to gain salvation through one’s efforts is a false teaching. It is so bad that those who hold to it cannot be Christians since it would deny salvation by grace through faith.

The second kind of legalism is where a person tries to keep or maintain his salvation by keeping the law. This is also a false doctrine. We receive our salvation by faith (Eph. 2:8-9)--not by our ability to be good because no one does good (Rom. 3:10-12). As Rom. 3:28, 4:5, and Gal. 2:21 clearly show, we are justified by faith and not by faith and works. Furthermore, there are strict warnings about attempting to keep the law in order to maintain salvation: Gal. 3:10, “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” And James 2:10, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” So, if a person is seeking to be either saved by his works (Law) or maintain his salvation by his works (Law), then he is under obligation to keep all of it; and if he does not, then he is guilty before God. Furthermore, consider Jesus’ words in Matt. 7:22-23, “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’” Jesus condemns them because they were appealing to their salvation based on their faith and doing good. So it should be obvious that we do not keep our salvation by our efforts.

The last kind of legalism, where a Christian keeps certain laws and regards other Christians who do not keep his level of holiness with contempt, is a frequent problem in the church. Now, we want to make it clear that all Christians are to abstain from fornication, adultery, pornography, lying, stealing, etc. Christians do have a right to judge the spirituality of other Christians in these areas where the Bible clearly speaks. But, in the debatable areas we need to be more careful, and this is where legalism is more difficult to define. Rom. 14:1-12 says that we are not to judge our brothers on debatable issues. One person may eat certain kinds of foods where another would not. One person might worship on a particular day where another might not. We are told to let each person be convinced in his own mind (Rom. 14:5). As long as our freedom does not violate the Scriptures, then everything should be okay.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you say you have faith in the Lord, but do not repent of your sins...You are not saved

If you say you have faith in the Lord, but deny Him in the way you walk in life....You are not saved

If you do none of those things, You never had faith in the Lord. Your faith was dead.

You were not saved NOT Because you did not do those things,

You were not saved because you DID NOT HAVE FAITH.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I understand this is what you and others believe but this is not Legalism. This is incorrect.

If you do a work to earn something, You are using a legal means of trying to earn whatever it is you are working for.

Hence the term legalism.

Jews tried to get saved by the law

Many in the NT try to get saved by following a law

It is all legalism.

Legalism is doing *ONE'S OWN* works in order to have God save you.

lol, Nice try, If your working to gain something FOR YOURSELF, ie eternal life, THOSE ARE YOUR OWN WORKS. even if it is following all or parts of any command God gave, whether in the OT or NT.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am usually not one for copying and pasting stuff but found this interesting....

In Christianity, legalism is the excessive and improper use of the law (10 commandments, holiness laws, etc). This legalism can take different forms. The first is where a person attempts to keep the Law in order to attain salvation. The second is where a person keeps the law in order to maintain his salvation. The third is when a Christian judges other Christians for not keeping certain codes of conduct that he thinks need to be observed. Let’s examine each one more closely.

The first kind of legalism is where the law of God is kept in order to attain salvation. This is a heresy, a completely false doctrine. We are not able to attain salvation by our keeping the law. Rom. 3:28, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.” Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” It is simply not possible to keep the Law enough to be saved. Therefore, to try to gain salvation through one’s efforts is a false teaching. It is so bad that those who hold to it cannot be Christians since it would deny salvation by grace through faith.

The second kind of legalism is where a person tries to keep or maintain his salvation by keeping the law. This is also a false doctrine. We receive our salvation by faith (Eph. 2:8-9)--not by our ability to be good because no one does good (Rom. 3:10-12). As Rom. 3:28, 4:5, and Gal. 2:21 clearly show, we are justified by faith and not by faith and works. Furthermore, there are strict warnings about attempting to keep the law in order to maintain salvation: Gal. 3:10, “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” And James 2:10, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” So, if a person is seeking to be either saved by his works (Law) or maintain his salvation by his works (Law), then he is under obligation to keep all of it; and if he does not, then he is guilty before God. Furthermore, consider Jesus’ words in Matt. 7:22-23, “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’” Jesus condemns them because they were appealing to their salvation based on their faith and doing good. So it should be obvious that we do not keep our salvation by our efforts.

The last kind of legalism, where a Christian keeps certain laws and regards other Christians who do not keep his level of holiness with contempt, is a frequent problem in the church. Now, we want to make it clear that all Christians are to abstain from fornication, adultery, pornography, lying, stealing, etc. Christians do have a right to judge the spirituality of other Christians in these areas where the Bible clearly speaks. But, in the debatable areas we need to be more careful, and this is where legalism is more difficult to define. Rom. 14:1-12 says that we are not to judge our brothers on debatable issues. One person may eat certain kinds of foods where another would not. One person might worship on a particular day where another might not. We are told to let each person be convinced in his own mind (Rom. 14:5). As long as our freedom does not violate the Scriptures, then everything should be okay.

I agree with everything said, except would translate the law differently, it is more than the ten commands, it is any command God ever gave in scripture. Including the laws of the mosaic covenant, and the laws of the new covenant.

Adding some or all to the gift of grace, is doing what Paul spoke against, Preaching a different gospel.

 

[p_rehbein]

Goodness, newbirth, you pretty much misunderstood everything I said in the comment you quoted and responded to.........oh well, it happens all the time here........

 

[p_rehbein]

e..t... said: No. You still have it out of line, you just have a few things out of place.

Not as I read Scripture..........you iz da one needing a realignment..........

anyway..........