Why do so many Christians end up in Hell?

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TLC209

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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Merced, CA
if a person is continually getting mislead by one bad teacher after another, is what we see in that a 'counterfeit faith' or is it a 'counterfeit understanding' ?
2 Timothy 4:3 For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will reject the truth and chase after myths.

I believe there is your answer. People chase what they want to believe. A god of their understanding. Satisfying the itch in their ears.

This is part of that counterfeit faith. They dont have understanding or they would know the truth.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Dino..

His concept of Christian and what his OP implies are correct.

I believe GyO is addressing people who are outwardly "professing" to be Christian but yet do not have faith or have become lukewarm.

We should address them as Christian regardless of their true status. How else will they take heed to strict warning in the bible if we were to say "people" are going to hell for lack of faith or lukewarm?

Someone who believes he or she is Christian will be under false premise that they do not fall in that category. And we would be failing to acknowledge the danger they are in. Sounds like a persons pride or ego to be the outcome of someone who denies they are in danger of hell if they are lukewarm.

So the OP I believe wants to further discuss this very real topic that affects the Christian community. While you on the other hand as well as others want to differentiate between fake Christian vs real Christians and saying his terminology is wrong. When in actuallity the sad truth is GyOs terminology is CORRECT.

Terminology and scriptural truth are 2 different things. Scripture says only those who have been born again and recieved the Holy Spirit will enter into Gods kingdom. That is not what the OP is discussing. He isnt discussing who is a Christian and who isnt.

Let me put it this way, do you believe that some of your congregation members may be in danger of hell.. meaning that they are not true Christians or dont have faith or have become luke warm?

It is also irrelevent whether or not they go straight to hell or wait to be sentenced and judged. The outcome is still hell. I wouldnt want to be waiting for that verdict, Either way.

i do think it is better that our language distinguish between actual saints and seemingly-but-not-actually-saints. whether to or not to practically treat or speak to those who identify themselves as believers, as truly being so, is a different topic, in my opinion - which raises by itself a lot of questions of its own. but particularly here where there's so much theology and doctrine discussion, it's not great IMO to accept phrases like 'God sends some believers to hell' as being perfectly sound & true statements.
my first thought when i read the thread title was something like a lot of other people's have been - Christians don't go to hell. that's a contradiction in terms. my second thought was 'he must mean why do people who call-themselves-christian/think-they-are-christian-but aren't-actually' -- and i'm sure that is what a number of others have thought, too. so the natural reaction to the idea, hey, this thread is poorly phrased, is to better phrase it. for that we need two things: a clearer sense of what the real intent of the OP is, and a mutual vocabulary that doesn't leave room for confusion.

so, this relates to what you say here:


Terminology and scriptural truth are 2 different things. Scripture says only those who have been born again and recieved the Holy Spirit will enter into Gods kingdom. That is not what the OP is discussing. He isnt discussing who is a Christian and who isnt.
you are asserting, those who are 'born again' enter the kingdom. but you say, entering the kingdom isn't about who is a Christian or not - so in your vocabulary, Christian ≠ born again. i have four sets then:
  1. born again but not christian
  2. christian but not born again
  3. born again & christian
  4. neither born again nor christian
01.jpeg

now i don't know what you mean when you say born-again -- are they christian or not? and i don't know what you mean when you say christian - are they born again or not? what is a believer? what is a saint? what is a brother or sister in Christ?


but imagine if i say Christian and born again and believer and saint all mean the same thing. then i have two groups

  1. in Christ
  2. not in Christ
02.jpeg

this is much less complexity. this is much clearer vocabulary to speak about salvation.

so, you say terminology and truth are not the same.


Terminology and scriptural truth are 2 different things.
if this is the case, i can't trust your language. i have a much more complex problem because i need to learn many definitions, and those definitions have to be made of words whose meanings i also need to verify. i have a confusing and potentially deceptive and duplicitous vocabulary.

i say, it is better for us, and with even more primacy it is better for the sake of the truth, that our terminology be fully aligned with the truth. we should not let lies be found on our lips - we should be as far from that as we can be.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I believe there is your answer. People chase what they want to believe. A god of their understanding. Satisfying the itch in their ears.
should we call such people Christians?
if someone doesn't believe the things the Bible talks about 'believers' believing, then should we call them 'believers' if the scripture wouldn't?

i realize that there is a looming oliphant having to do with 'methods and prerogatives of judgement' but can we answer that question in a way that transcends 'situational ethic' ?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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If on the other hand is why can life as a Christian be more difficult for some than others? I think that the answer might be it depends upon the roles we may be chosen for. I think life is like a boot camp and an office clerk in the Coast Guards experience will be totally different than that of a person to become a Seal or Green Beret. It's only my opinion but it's as valid as anyone else's.
both are worthy of the same respect for service, even though great deeds bring great honor. God's definition of 'great' doesn't necessarily match man's ;)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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These are the ones I refer to as the "Sunday crowd". The ones who show up Sundays and thats about all they have concerning God in their life.

So theres many who believe they are Christians by this definition of potluck and Sunday goer. Do you agree?
i don't agree that going to potlucks or showing up in a pew on sudays is what constitutes being a Christian.

i try not to call anyone that on such basis ;)
 

Gregoryp

Active member
Jul 20, 2019
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I must say we have a prime minister here who declares himself a born again christian and goes to Hillsong Church. Believe me, he is no christian. How he treats the poor, the sick, the elderly, how he lies and has been caught doing so many times, he is as fake as a christian can be. Satan is his friend, not Jesus. You can tell a christian by there fruit
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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TLC209 said:


2 Timothy 3
7 (Such women are forever following new teachings, but they are never able to understand the truth.) 8 These teachers oppose the truth just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses. They have depraved minds and a counterfeit faith.
Before I comment further what Bible version is this?

Hello UnderGrace,

Below is the actual scripture:

"But understand this: In the last days terrible times will come. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, without love of good, traitorous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. Turn away from such as these!"

They (men) are the kind who worm their way into households and take captive vulnerable women weighed down with sins and led astray by various passions, "they, the men" always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

So, it is men who worm their way into households and take captive vulnerable women. It does not say that such women are forever following new teachings, but is referring to the men.

The "They" in the second paragraph must refer back to those identified to those "men" who will be lovers of themselves. These "men" are the kind that worm their way into households and captivate vulnerable women weighed down with sins.

In short, the context is aimed at the men who will be lovers of themselves and who worm their way into vulnerable women's homes.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,419
954
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Thankfully there is still time as no one is yet in Hell. Hell is the final place for after the judgment.
You are correct, no one is yet in Gehenna/hell. But the wicked have been pouring into Hades translated as hell 24/7 throughout all history. Here is the list of words translated as "Hell" posted from post #82

Tartaroo/Tartartus = This word is only found once in scripture. It is the place under the earth where the angels who sinned were sent to by God, mentioned in both 2 Peter 2:4 and described in Jude 6. I believe that the angels referred to are the ones who took wives from mankind, defiling themselves with them.

Sheol/Hades = This is the realm of the unrighteous dead located under the earth, which is where "the rich man" of Lazarus fame went to when he died, being in flame and torment. Sheol/Hades is a temporary place of punishment for the wicked until the great white throne judgment takes place. At the end of the thousand year kingdom, the unrighteous dead will be resurrected, their spirits being released from Sheol/Hades and united with their resurrected bodies, and will stand before God at the great white throne to be judged for all of their sins.

Gehenna = This is the final place of eternal punishment, the location of which is not mentioned but will most likely not be on the earth since this current heaven and earth will pass away. The other names for it are the lake of fire, everlasting fire and the second death, which is also the place that Jesus said was created for Satan and his angels.
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
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Hello UnderGrace,

Below is the actual scripture:

"But understand this: In the last days terrible times will come. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, without love of good, traitorous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. Turn away from such as these!"

They (men) are the kind who worm their way into households and take captive vulnerable women weighed down with sins and led astray by various passions, "they, the men" always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

So, it is men who worm their way into households and take captive vulnerable women. It does not say that such women are forever following new teachings, but is referring to the men.

The "They" in the second paragraph must refer back to those identified to those "men" who will be lovers of themselves. These "men" are the kind that worm their way into households and captivate vulnerable women weighed down with sins.

In short, the context is aimed at the men who will be lovers of themselves and who worm their way into vulnerable women's homes.
Thank you, so helpful!! :)
 

TLC209

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
363
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Merced, CA
i do think it is better that our language distinguish between actual saints and seemingly-but-not-actually-saints. whether to or not to practically treat or speak to those who identify themselves as believers, as truly being so, is a different topic, in my opinion - which raises by itself a lot of questions of its own. but particularly here where there's so much theology and doctrine discussion, it's not great IMO to accept phrases like 'God sends some believers to hell' as being perfectly sound & true statements.
my first thought when i read the thread title was something like a lot of other people's have been - Christians don't go to hell. that's a contradiction in terms. my second thought was 'he must mean why do people who call-themselves-christian/think-they-are-christian-but aren't-actually' -- and i'm sure that is what a number of others have thought, too. so the natural reaction to the idea, hey, this thread is poorly phrased, is to better phrase it. for that we need two things: a clearer sense of what the real intent of the OP is, and a mutual vocabulary that doesn't leave room for confusion.


so, this relates to what you say here:
Terminology and scriptural truth are 2 different things. Scripture says only those who have been born again and recieved the Holy Spirit will enter into Gods kingdom. That is not what the OP is discussing. He isnt discussing who is a Christian and who isnt.
you are asserting, those who are 'born again' enter the kingdom. but you say, entering the kingdom isn't about who is a Christian or not - so in your vocabulary, Christian ≠ born again. i have four sets then:
  1. born again but not christian
  2. christian but not born again
  3. born again & christian
  4. neither born again nor christian
View attachment 202885

now i don't know what you mean when you say born-again -- are they christian or not? and i don't know what you mean when you say christian - are they born again or not? what is a believer? what is a saint? what is a brother or sister in Christ?


but imagine if i say Christian and born again and believer and saint all mean the same thing. then i have two groups
  1. in Christ
  2. not in Christ
View attachment 202889

this is much less complexity. this is much clearer vocabulary to speak about salvation.

so, you say terminology and truth are not the same.



if this is the case, i can't trust your language. i have a much more complex problem because i need to learn many definitions, and those definitions have to be made of words whose meanings i also need to verify. i have a confusing and potentially deceptive and duplicitous vocabulary.

i say, it is better for us, and with even more primacy it is better for the sake of the truth, that our terminology be fully aligned with the truth. we should not let lies be found on our lips - we should be as far from that as we can be.
Lol agreed. Nice post btw... Enjoy your precision.

So what I mean in terms of terminology for the term "Christian". It is so broad of a term now days. A lot of people claim that as their identity but Scripturally it may be untrue in most cases. I think we both can agree on this?

So i figure why get into politics over the term "Christian". Ive accepted that there are many false sheep among us, like tares among the wheat, we can only spread the truth and let the truth reveal itself. So to those who claim to be Christian, I choose to address them as such until their spirit shows otherwise. We can try to urge them with the truth but if they wont listen to biblical truth, we have to distance ourselves from such people.

If someone wants to identify as a Christian who am I to stop them? I will use that as the entry point to spread seed like a Farmer. Im gonna do my job regardless, even if a person is a non believer. Im going to witness the truth.

But by biblical standard and by my own peronal belief, you are not a Christian until you recieve the Holy Spirit. When you are born again. And that process is different for everyone, so theres no reason for anyone to discourage another fellow Christian even if they are at a starting point and still have not even began to repent. We need to be patient and lead them as best we can to the truth. Not leave someone lukewarm or weak in faith.

God sends some believers to hell' as being perfectly sound & true statements.
my first thought when i read the thread title was something like a lot of other people's have been - Christians don't go to hell. that's a contradiction in terms. my second thought was 'he must mean why do people who call-themselves-christian/think-they-are-christian-but aren't-actually' -- and i'm sure that is what a number of others have thought, too.


So what I keep trying to point out is that these people, everyone agrees are in churches but their motives are wrong or whatever the case may be. But does this mean that they are not "believers"? Thats the part that no one wants to wrap their head around.

These people that go to church and are either potluck or sunday people they believe in God they believe in Jesus. Im sure if you ask them they will tell you this. So yes they are believers. They just arent genuine Christians. For what ever reason. But it is the truth. The thread is correct. Its just taboo to hear someone say that. Because we think that cannot happen because I myself am not going to hell.

Now if the thread had said why do so many Saints go to hell?? That would be a complete blasphemy. That would be so untrue. But the term Christian is a loose term especially in todays society. The Holy Spirit is what sets us apart. Not the term "Christian" or "believer". Even the demons believe.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,419
954
113
Lol agreed. Nice post btw... Enjoy your precision.

So what I mean in terms of terminology for the term "Christian". It is so broad of a term now days. A lot of people claim that as their identity but Scripturally it may be untrue in most cases. I think we both can agree on this?

So i figure why get into politics over the term "Christian". Ive accepted that there are many false sheep among us, like tares among the wheat, we can only spread the truth and let the truth reveal itself. So to those who claim to be Christian, I choose to address them as such until their spirit shows otherwise. We can try to urge them with the truth but if they wont listen to biblical truth, we have to distance ourselves from such people.

If someone wants to identify as a Christian who am I to stop them? I will use that as the entry point to spread seed like a Farmer. Im gonna do my job regardless, even if a person is a non believer. Im going to witness the truth.

But by biblical standard and by my own peronal belief, you are not a Christian until you recieve the Holy Spirit. When you are born again. And that process is different for everyone, so theres no reason for anyone to discourage another fellow Christian even if they are at a starting point and still have not even began to repent. We need to be patient and lead them as best we can to the truth. Not leave someone lukewarm or weak in faith.

God sends some believers to hell' as being perfectly sound & true statements.
my first thought when i read the thread title was something like a lot of other people's have been - Christians don't go to hell. that's a contradiction in terms. my second thought was 'he must mean why do people who call-themselves-christian/think-they-are-christian-but aren't-actually' -- and i'm sure that is what a number of others have thought, too.


So what I keep trying to point out is that these people, everyone agrees are in churches but their motives are wrong or whatever the case may be. But does this mean that they are not "believers"? Thats the part that no one wants to wrap their head around.

These people that go to church and are either potluck or sunday people they believe in God they believe in Jesus. Im sure if you ask them they will tell you this. So yes they are believers. They just arent genuine Christians. For what ever reason. But it is the truth. The thread is correct. Its just taboo to hear someone say that. Because we think that cannot happen because I myself am not going to hell.

Now if the thread had said why do so many Saints go to hell?? That would be a complete blasphemy. That would be so untrue. But the term Christian is a loose term especially in todays society. The Holy Spirit is what sets us apart. Not the term "Christian" or "believer". Even the demons believe.
Hello again TLC209,

That you and others might find this interesting from "Got Questions":

"The picture painted in the Parable of the Mustard Seed by Jesus is of the humble beginnings of the church experiencing an explosive rate of growth. It grows large and becomes a source of food, rest, and shelter, for both believers and false professing individuals that seek to consume or take advantage of its benefits while residing or mixing among what was produced by the seed (1 Corinthians 5:1; 6:7; 2 Corinthians 11:13; Galatians 1:7). In other words, Jesus predicts that, while the church will grow extremely large from just a small start, it will not remain pure. While this is not a condemnation of the "bigness" of modern Christianity, it does show us the greatest burden that comes with it. The Parable of the Mustard Seed is both a prediction and a warning. May we listen to its message.

The mustered tree is figurative representing the church. The birds of the air that come and lodge in its branches, represent Satan and the powers of darkness, as well as false professing individuals in order to take advantage of its benefits.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,655
1,861
113
i do think it is better that our language distinguish between actual saints and seemingly-but-not-actually-saints. whether to or not to practically treat or speak to those who identify themselves as believers, as truly being so, is a different topic, in my opinion - which raises by itself a lot of questions of its own. but particularly here where there's so much theology and doctrine discussion, it's not great IMO to accept phrases like 'God sends some believers to hell' as being perfectly sound & true statements.
my first thought when i read the thread title was something like a lot of other people's have been - Christians don't go to hell. that's a contradiction in terms. my second thought was 'he must mean why do people who call-themselves-christian/think-they-are-christian-but aren't-actually' -- and i'm sure that is what a number of others have thought, too. so the natural reaction to the idea, hey, this thread is poorly phrased, is to better phrase it. for that we need two things: a clearer sense of what the real intent of the OP is, and a mutual vocabulary that doesn't leave room for confusion.


so, this relates to what you say here:
Terminology and scriptural truth are 2 different things. Scripture says only those who have been born again and recieved the Holy Spirit will enter into Gods kingdom. That is not what the OP is discussing. He isnt discussing who is a Christian and who isnt.
you are asserting, those who are 'born again' enter the kingdom. but you say, entering the kingdom isn't about who is a Christian or not - so in your vocabulary, Christian ≠ born again. i have four sets then:
  1. born again but not christian
  2. christian but not born again
  3. born again & christian
  4. neither born again nor christian
View attachment 202885

now i don't know what you mean when you say born-again -- are they christian or not? and i don't know what you mean when you say christian - are they born again or not? what is a believer? what is a saint? what is a brother or sister in Christ?


but imagine if i say Christian and born again and believer and saint all mean the same thing. then i have two groups
  1. in Christ
  2. not in Christ
View attachment 202889

this is much less complexity. this is much clearer vocabulary to speak about salvation.

so, you say terminology and truth are not the same.



if this is the case, i can't trust your language. i have a much more complex problem because i need to learn many definitions, and those definitions have to be made of words whose meanings i also need to verify. i have a confusing and potentially deceptive and duplicitous vocabulary.

i say, it is better for us, and with even more primacy it is better for the sake of the truth, that our terminology be fully aligned with the truth. we should not let lies be found on our lips - we should be as far from that as we can be.

Congratulations,
You are the first person I've ever met who used vin diagrams to explain people going to hell.

Today you have outdone yourself.

:)

..
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
6,157
4,142
113
65
lawton ok
Hello UnderGrace,

Below is the actual scripture:

"But understand this: In the last days terrible times will come. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, without love of good, traitorous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. Turn away from such as these!"

They (men) are the kind who worm their way into households and take captive vulnerable women weighed down with sins and led astray by various passions, "they, the men" always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

So, it is men who worm their way into households and take captive vulnerable women. It does not say that such women are forever following new teachings, but is referring to the men.

The "They" in the second paragraph must refer back to those identified to those "men" who will be lovers of themselves. These "men" are the kind that worm their way into households and captivate vulnerable women weighed down with sins.

In short, the context is aimed at the men who will be lovers of themselves and who worm their way into vulnerable women's homes.
Thank you for sharing.
 

TLC209

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
363
123
43
37
Merced, CA
Hello again TLC209,

That you and others might find this interesting from "Got Questions":

"The picture painted in the Parable of the Mustard Seed by Jesus is of the humble beginnings of the church experiencing an explosive rate of growth. It grows large and becomes a source of food, rest, and shelter, for both believers and false professing individuals that seek to consume or take advantage of its benefits while residing or mixing among what was produced by the seed (1 Corinthians 5:1; 6:7; 2 Corinthians 11:13; Galatians 1:7). In other words, Jesus predicts that, while the church will grow extremely large from just a small start, it will not remain pure. While this is not a condemnation of the "bigness" of modern Christianity, it does show us the greatest burden that comes with it. The Parable of the Mustard Seed is both a prediction and a warning. May we listen to its message.

The mustered tree is figurative representing the church. The birds of the air that come and lodge in its branches, represent Satan and the powers of darkness, as well as false professing individuals in order to take advantage of its benefits.
Matthew 13: KING JAMES VERSION
31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Where does this illistrate about false individuals and satan nesting in the tree? The tree represents the Kingdom of God. Jesus didnt teach anything about the birds representing satan? Who taught you that? Or where did you read that? Got questions? Sounds false to me. But if you can share scripture to back that up?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,193
5,961
113
Congratulations,
You are the first person I've ever met who used vin diagrams to explain people going to hell.

Today you have outdone yourself.

:)

..
been wanting to use Venn diagrams in various threads for a long time lol - i finally found a site today that made them easy to construct and color ((at least up to 4 sets)) that didn't want me to sign up or pay for something :LOL:

https://sketch.io/sketchpad/



Lol agreed. Nice post btw... Enjoy your precision.
this is kind of you to say - hi i'm post, sort of the board's resident mathematician; often preoccupied with accuracy - and thank you for your post; it is good i see now how you understand the terminology

:giggle:
 

TLC209

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
363
123
43
37
Merced, CA
I must say we have a prime minister here who declares himself a born again christian and goes to Hillsong Church. Believe me, he is no christian. How he treats the poor, the sick, the elderly, how he lies and has been caught doing so many times, he is as fake as a christian can be. Satan is his friend, not Jesus. You can tell a christian by there fruit
Im sure you read about Marty Sampson renouncing his faith?
should we call such people Christians?
if someone doesn't believe the things the Bible talks about '
believers' believing, then should we call them 'believers' if the scripture wouldn't?

i realize that there is a looming oliphant having to do with 'methods and prerogatives of judgement' but can we answer that question in a way that transcends 'situational ethic' ?
This becomes shaky ground as to know who really believes and who doesnt. But in the case with Marty Sampson, was he a believer before he renounced his "faith"?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,193
5,961
113
Matthew 13: KING JAMES VERSION
31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Where does this illistrate about false individuals and satan nesting in the tree? The tree represents the Kingdom of God. Jesus didnt teach anything about the birds representing satan? Who taught you that? Or where did you read that? Got questions? Sounds false to me. But if you can share scripture to back that up?
do you think that Genesis 15:11, Abraham driving away birds from the animals portioned for a covenant, and 2 Samuel 21:10, Rizpah driving away birds from corpses, have some bearing on the symbolic language of Christ's parable?
i've heard this parable taught from the perspective of these two other passages -- and then it becomes significant that no one drives these birds away, but the tree becomes their shelter.