Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

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garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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Paul had many enemies in the day. Mostly Christian's that believe in the works for salvation doctrine. Also the reformed Jews who insisted on conversion to judisim to be proper.
Knowing he was not of the 11 made him suspect of a false gospel message.
Paul's gospel message Christ crucified ushers in Grace which we have a hard time to this day in learning.
All the teachings of Paul can be found in the words of Jesus as Paul's words gave life to the shadows of the old testament.
Not fully understanding the old testament the conversion of the gentiles were ruled by Jewish criticism of signs and wonders and blood and sacrifice which made a hodgepodge of the true gospel message.
Paul stood firm as to what the Holy Spirit showed and led him in building the bridge between the old and new testament on to the everlasting.
I think when men try to change the one meaning of the word apostle (sent one)and add others meanings . like restricting the meaning of the word apostle to the word twelve as word that is used in many places as a metaphor in a parable that simply means the authority of God .

They have in effect made the law of interpretation (Deuteronomy 4) as in adding another meaning to one word which can change the author of scriptures intent . Which is a different warning not to add to the whole Bible the book of prophecy in now that we have the perfect Revelation 22:18-19 Do not add or substract from the whole

Both warning are needed to protect the integrity of Gods word.

Notice.. the word (singular) diminish not from it (singular) that we might keep the commands (plural) as in the whole,

Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. Deuteronomy 4:1-2

Not to single out the Catholics but they added to the word apostle to give the illusion of the idea of apostolical succession or a law of the fathers. and use them as an authority as oral traditions of men that rise above all things written in the law and the prophets(sola scriptura) so that others Non venrable pew Catholics would seek the approval of men (seen) and not the Holy Spirit (not seen". In the end of the matter trying to seduce others that the venerable ones did not receive freely from God it but glory in their own flesh as if they did not freely receive it from God who makes men differ from one another

The apostle Paul who includes himself as a figure (parable) gives honor to God not men seen who puff themselves up above that which is written

1 Corinthians 4:6And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
 

Embankment

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2017
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This idea that Paul is somehow not THE primary spokesperson of the gospel of Jesus Christ is ridiculous.
By all accounts and from the formation of THE Bible composed of the New and Old Testaments,
Paul is the authority on Jesus message!

If you want to live without Jesus, go for it. Just stop trying to justify yourself before Christians by pretending to be Christian.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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Many references are made to Jesus being our Master, this is not a slave-master relationship, it is referring to Him as our Master (Teacher.)

Also, He is referred to as Raboni, oe my Great kRabbi, again teacher.

The Gospel is the Gospel of Jesus Christ,passed on to us by the Twelve and others not of the Twelve but nevertheless sent out as Apostle may be defined.
There is no other authority on the Gospel but Jesus Christ, all we have since He are people who are learned of Him.

There are several references to His being our Teacher, some simply when we read we should hear Him.........even if this advice is being given to a brother in Christ in the Word, it is to all of us.

I have not said you shoul not learn by means of PAUL, but always keep in the forefront of your understanding that Paul is taught the same Gospel as were Abraham first, the Hebrews at the Mount, the Jews at Christ's first advent in the flesh, and closely followed by His other flock, gentiles......
Sorry in advance for the length .

I think we should be careful not attribute the works of God (not seen) represented by the father to the flesh of the Son of man, Jesus (seen ).as if supernatural God had a nature(beginning)

Job informs us (9:32-33) God is not a man (creation) as us and neither is their a fleshly mediator on earth as that seen as a infallible umpire (daysman) set between God and man . like the Pope.

God not seen defines the word good in respect to his own self by that which he creates .Not that seen but the faithful Creator again not seen . The Pagan religions of the world walk by sight, having no faith that alone comes from hearing God, not seen . To them its out of sight out of mind (no spiritual insight)

Note...... red in bold represents the father not seen ... non bolded red the Son of man seen

Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

When approached as Good Master or Rabbi (teacher) the Son of man seen gave glory to the father not seen.

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.Matthew 19:17 16

That teaching seems to reflect the teaching found in Mathew 23:6-12...apposing glorying in the flesh as that seen

They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be [exalted. Mathew 23:6-12 NKJ

One more example of the Son of man as that seen giving glory to the father not seen .

Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. John6:43-46
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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This idea that Paul is somehow not THE primary spokesperson of the gospel of Jesus Christ is ridiculous.
By all accounts and from the formation of THE Bible composed of the New and Old Testaments,
Paul is the authority on Jesus message!

If you want to live without Jesus, go for it. Just stop trying to justify yourself before Christians by pretending to be Christian.

The words of Christ that he placed on the lips of the apostle Paul are not a private interpretation of Paul as a personal opinion or personal commentary .Not any more than the words Christ placed on Balaam's ass to restrain the madness of the false prophet Balaam.
God who is not served by human hands (will) moves men, men do not move the Holy Spirit of God.

As always first things first.

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of "any private interpretation", for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:19-21vv
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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Jesus Christ is God. Read in all of the Word and-you will know this in confidence.

I Hebrew, the Old Testament, quotes Yahweh as declaring "I am your Redeemer." He declares, "I am your King." He declares "I am your Husband."


He gave Isaiah to write down His words for us teaching us that the Child to be born to us wuld be called the everlasting Fathr, God Almighty, Ruler of Peace, Counselor, Comforter, and more....Isaiah 9:6.

There is no other authority than our Father, Jesus, or Yeshua to many.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Part of why some have rejected Paul as an apostle is that he very clearly states the basic truths of salvation in clear unequivocal terms. Some do not like that, and so reject Paul.

On the other hand, there is just as dangerous a thread in some circles to elevate the teachings of Paul above the teachings of Jesus and the other writers of the New Testament. All NT writers are fully and equally inspired. (OT writers for that matter are inspired also). To say that Paul is the primary spokesman of the gospel is getting onto dangerous ground.
 

Embankment

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2017
681
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Part of why some have rejected Paul as an apostle is that he very clearly states the basic truths of salvation in clear unequivocal terms. Some do not like that, and so reject Paul.

On the other hand, there is just as dangerous a thread in some circles to elevate the teachings of Paul above the teachings of Jesus and the other writers of the New Testament. All NT writers are fully and equally inspired. (OT writers for that matter are inspired also). To say that Paul is the primary spokesman of the gospel is getting onto dangerous ground.
Paul is THE spokesperson this side of the cross.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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Paul was a Pharisee rabbi, God chose Paul to be an apostle to the gentiles and God used what Paul knew of Him when God gave Paul knowledge of Christ. Paul used the language of a rabbi and of the people of the days Christ lived in. If we read Paul as a modern man speaking as we speak, then you are getting Paul all wrong.

In Sweden they have a saying that translates to "there is no cow on the ice". In English that makes no sense, to Swedes it means there isn't any danger. Paul uses such sayings clear in his day, like "under grace not law". Modern man has really hashed that one up saying don't listen to law. There are three kinds of law Paul speaks of without telling us what law he is referring to. It was clear to the people of Paul's era, but not to us. There is natural law that people are born with a knowledge of, the Law of Moses, and the Jewish traditional law also called Law of Moses. Paul called traditional law simply law of Moses, and the law given to Moses THE Law of Moses, but translators were often unaware of this.

People who say Paul is false are making a decision without learning the facts.
 

Chester

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May 23, 2016
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Paul is THE spokesperson this side of the cross.
So you take the words of Paul above the words of Peter, John, James, and Jesus himself? Is that what you mean? Or, what do you mean by Paul is "THE spokesman this side of the cross"?
 

Embankment

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2017
681
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Paul was a Pharisee rabbi, God chose Paul to be an apostle to the gentiles and God used what Paul knew of Him when God gave Paul knowledge of Christ. Paul used the language of a rabbi and of the people of the days Christ lived in. If we read Paul as a modern man speaking as we speak, then you are getting Paul all wrong.

In Sweden they have a saying that translates to "there is no cow on the ice". In English that makes no sense, to Swedes it means there isn't any danger. Paul uses such sayings clear in his day, like "under grace not law". Modern man has really hashed that one up saying don't listen to law. There are three kinds of law Paul speaks of without telling us what law he is referring to. It was clear to the people of Paul's era, but not to us. There is natural law that people are born with a knowledge of, the Law of Moses, and the Jewish traditional law also called Law of Moses. Paul called traditional law simply law of Moses, and the law given to Moses THE Law of Moses, but translators were often unaware of this.

People who say Paul is false are making a decision without learning the facts.
The Bible reads very plainly. Paul speaks plainly about the law that existed before the cross and the fact that it does not apply after the cross.
There are not two ways to interpret it.
Paul preaches grace and life in Jesus. The law preaches death because it is not of Christ.
 

Embankment

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2017
681
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So you take the words of Paul above the words of Peter, John, James, and Jesus himself? Is that what you mean? Or, what do you mean by Paul is "THE spokesman this side of the cross"?
Without Paul we would not know grace. He is our window into what grace is and means.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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The Bible reads very plainly. Paul speaks plainly about the law that existed before the cross and the fact that it does not apply after the cross.
There are not two ways to interpret it.
Paul preaches grace and life in Jesus. The law preaches death because it is not of Christ.
Oh My. So :paul was born when? about 1960? If Paul speak plainly to you and not to the people who lived when he did, you should go tell Paul about it.
 

Marcelo

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Feb 4, 2016
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No. I think that people don't understand some of his teachings, or they don't want to believe his teachings, so they want to discredit it. Just ignore it and live the way they want too.
This is what the "Christian" Gay Movement does -- they try to disqualify Paul's teachings and use the Red Letter Bible to "prove" that same sex marriage is OK. There's a thread going on about this: If homosexuality is a sin, then why didn't Jesus say anything about it?

The answer to the question above is very simple: Jesus did say that men who have sex with another man will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Yes, He said the above words through the apostle Paul, his spokesman.

New International Version 1 COR 6:9

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Without Paul we would not know grace. He is our window into what grace is and means.
Really? We would not know grace without Paul?

I agree that Paul is a key person in expounding the gospel of the grace of Jesus Christ, but that does make him THE spokesman. Nor is it true that we would not know grace without Paul. I think I could agree that Paul is a key window (but not THE window) into helping us know what grace is and means.

John 1:14-17 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Grace came by Jesus Christ. Grace did not come by Paul.

James and Peter, and even Jude also clearly talk about grace:

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Embankment

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2017
681
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Oh My. So :paul was born when? about 1960? If Paul speak plainly to you and not to the people who lived when he did, you should go tell Paul about it.
If you choose to find question with Paul, It is fine. Compose your very on personal Bible and run with it!
 

Embankment

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2017
681
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Really? We would not know grace without Paul?

I agree that Paul is a key person in expounding the gospel of the grace of Jesus Christ, but that does make him THE spokesman. Nor is it true that we would not know grace without Paul. I think I could agree that Paul is a key window (but not THE window) into helping us know what grace is and means.

John 1:14-17 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Grace came by Jesus Christ. Grace did not come by Paul.

James and Peter, and even Jude also clearly talk about grace:

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul explains what living under grace is to the extent no other apostle did. That is why you have a problem with him.
Having a problem with Paul is having a problem with the Bible is’s self.
 
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pjharrison

Guest
This is what the "Christian" Gay Movement does -- they try to disqualify Paul's teachings and use the Red Letter Bible to "prove" that same sex marriage is OK. There's a thread going on about this: If homosexuality is a sin, then why didn't Jesus say anything about it?

The answer to the question above is very simple: Jesus did say that men who have sex with another man will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Yes, He said the above words through the apostle Paul, his spokesman.

New International Version 1 COR 6:9

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men.
This is what Jesus said about it: Mathew 1:19 3 The proud religious law-keepers came to Jesus. They tried to trap Him by saying, “Does the Law say a man can divorce his wife for any reason?” 4 He said to them, “Have you not read that He Who made them in the first place made them man and woman? 5 It says, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will live with his wife. The two will become one.’ 6 So they are no longer two but one. Let no man divide what God has put together.”
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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This is what Jesus said about it: Mathew 1:19 3 The proud religious law-keepers came to Jesus. They tried to trap Him by saying, “Does the Law say a man can divorce his wife for any reason?” 4 He said to them, “Have you not read that He Who made them in the first place made them man and woman? 5 It says, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will live with his wife. The two will become one.’ 6 So they are no longer two but one. Let no man divide what God has put together.”
The "law keepers' who came to Jesus only said that obeyed the law but they did not. They just mechanically did the letter of the law and that is not what keeping the law is all about. Jesus never, ever disagreed with His Father. The bible is from God who speaks with one voice, not with one part disagreeing with any other part. We are told to be obedient to the Lord, and there is no verse in the bible that tells us to be disobedient.

People without God in their hearts are always trying to find ways to interpret scripture so it reads to make it OK for them to make their own rules for living, not following the way the world was created. They are false.
 
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pjharrison

Guest
The "law keepers' who came to Jesus only said that obeyed the law but they did not. They just mechanically did the letter of the law and that is not what keeping the law is all about. Jesus never, ever disagreed with His Father. The bible is from God who speaks with one voice, not with one part disagreeing with any other part. We are told to be obedient to the Lord, and there is no verse in the bible that tells us to be disobedient.

People without God in their hearts are always trying to find ways to interpret scripture so it reads to make it OK for them to make their own rules for living, not following the way the world was created. They are false.
I wasn't speaking against divorce... People are so wicked, some times you can't stay married to them., especially when we pick our mate ourselves. I was speaking on homosexuality.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Paul explains what living under grace is to the extent no other apostle did. That is why you have a problem with him.
Having a problem with Paul is having a problem with the Bible is’s self.
LOL! I do not have any problem with Paul! That is what you said, not at all what I said!

I have a problem if someone puts the words and writings of Paul as more authoritative than those of Peter, John, James, or Jesus.
(I do not know if you are guilty of this or not -- but I asked the question and you did not answer my question . . . )

You are right that Paul explains grace in greater details than the other writers - that does not make him more authoritative than their words.