Why do some people believe and some do not?

[posthuman]

I see some issues creeping in here.
Cannot endorse this batch.

like what?
i ain't saying he's 100%, but he sure has his wits about him, and worth a read.

 

[posthuman]

Then after all the denials of who the natural man is one told us they are leaning into the new creation!!!

What new creation??? I had to ask, since they deny the old.

if the old creature was fine, there was no need for a new one

 

[Magenta]

if the old creature was fine, there was no need for a new one

Exactly. But they see no contradiction.

Truly it is almost spectacularly breathtaking how much Scripture gets swept
aside, ignored, denied, etc, in order for them to hold to their contradictory view.

 

[cv5]

hmmm why does God call them evil if He didn't mean evil?
maybe His command of language is lacking, ha!

and the second verse i put?
if no one is good but God alone, we are all... what? kinda good?

Fallen humans are a mixture of good and evil traits and actions.
Only God is pure good.

The dividing of the light from darkness happens later.

 

[GWH]

Thanks for the reply and discussion. Grace and peace.

Ditto, catch you later. :^)

 

[Kroogz]

1 Timothy 1:13
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

Paul did not say he was evil, he said he did evil things because he was ignorant and his ignorance led him in unbelief. If he was in fact evil he would not have responded the way he did on the Damascus road nor would have he desired the good when the Law informed him of what constituted goodness. Evil rejects truth it is what makes it evil. Satan is evil. Please learn the difference between being culpable of evil because we are born into darkness and actually becoming evil.

This is a big point of doctrine. What is your definition of evil?

Evil is anything other than DIVINE good.Anything. Anything done outside of the power of the Holy Spirit is EVIL.......Human good is evil.

@cv5 Has mentioned many times that we are in a trial. And we are. All unbelievers will get to "plead" their case before the righteous Judge. And All of their 'good' deeds will positively NOT measure up.

So evil is not always some raging lunatic sinning(All been paid for) as much as possible. Evil is also some nice person who thinks he is "good' enough.........EVIL. And this is where Satan has the strongest foothold. He KNOWS all sin is paid for.....But not all evil. Hence, being good and nice in some religion of choice.

Hebrews 5:14
But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

It's easy for us to discern outright, in your face evil. But it takes doctrine and practice to discern between divine good and human good(evil.)......All sin is evil. But not all evil is sin.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

This is a big point of doctrine. What is your definition of evil?

Evil is anything other than DIVINE good.Anything. Anything done outside of the power of the Holy Spirit is EVIL.......Human good is evil.

This is the problem. Translators unfortunately translated several different Greek words as evil. It really confuses things. I disagree that human good is evil, but it entirely depends on what definition of evil is being used.

 

[Mem]

When you have time, maybe we can continue. If someone else takes it up and I interact, I'll try to remember to cc you.

I'll start by saying that in the context of the discussion, God's grace is not missing.

God's grace is extended, indeed, though that phrase is so often taken in such a short way. But that leaves faith, and so raises the question that, if God does not provide everyone with some measure of faith, then isn't His grace at least narrowed to a select few, or shortened in some way? I can't think so.
Revisiting Jesus' lament over Jerusalem, "How often have I longed to gather your children...but you were unwilling...," with cross reference to Psalm 118:26, "...you will not see Me again until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the comes in the name of the Lord.'" And I believe that the concluding verse 29 in the Psalm is an adequate summary of that name, "...For He is good; His loving devotion endures forever." And v. 26b implies that no one can bless except "from the house of the LORD," but there are many that aren't even 'in the right neighborhood.'

 

[posthuman]

Fallen humans are a mixture of good and evil traits and actions.
Only God is pure good.

The dividing of the light from darkness happens later.

Haggai 2:10-14​

On the twenty-fourth [day] of the ninth [month,] in the second year of Darius, the word of the LORD came by Haggai the prophet, saying, ​

"Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Now, ask the priests [concerning the] law, saying, "If one carries holy meat in the fold of his garment, and with the edge he touches bread or stew, wine or oil, or any food, will it become holy?"'" ​

Then the priests answered and said, ​

"No." ​

And Haggai said, ​

"If [one who is] unclean [because] of a dead body touches any of these, will it be unclean?" ​

So the priests answered and said, ​

"It shall be unclean." ​

Then Haggai answered and said, ​

"'So is this people, and so is this nation before Me,' says the LORD, 'and so is every work of their hands; and what they offer there is unclean.'" ​

​

​

how amazing is it, that Jesus Christ touches a leper, and they become clean, instead of Him being defiled???
Yet it is exactly what we should expect, knowing Who He is

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

how amazing is it, that Jesus Christ touches a leper, and they become clean, instead of Him being defiled???
Yet it is exactly what we should expect, knowing Who He is

That's because he is most holy. Under the law anything that was most holy would make whatever it touched holy, which of course was a shadow of Christ

 

[posthuman]

That's because he is most holy. Under the law anything that was most holy would make whatever it touched holy, which of course was a shadow of Christ

Haggai demonstrates that holy things under the law become defiled if they touch or are touched things that are unclean.

((hence even if people are partially good and partially not, they are evil because of that which is not good - "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump" ))

but Christ is God

 

[posthuman]

That's because he is most holy. Under the law anything that was most holy would make whatever it touched holy, which of course was a shadow of Christ

if you know of something in Leviticus that contradicts the plain meaning of Haggai 2, that maybe i am forgetting, please quote it bro

 

[sawdust]

unless of course, as Christian orthodoxy states, He was given the grace to respond well, such that, he does not boast of his inherent merit or good decision-making, as your view would suggest he should, but instead of Christ Who transformed him...


i can find the latter sentiment in his writings ((1 Corinthians 15:9-10)) but not the former..

I have never suggested that, it is simply the way you perceive it according to your bias.

 

[sawdust]

All sin is evil

You have it back to front. Sin is derived from evil. When you reject God's will (that which is true) and replace it with your own will (which is a lie), therefore thinking in terms of evil, you end up sinning.

James 1:15
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.


And I was talking about character, not deeds. The constant rejection of truth leads to the development of an evil character. Evil rejects truth and builds on lies.

It never ceases to amaze me how we are constantly taught in the Church to separate the sin from the sinner, yet the moment I say people are not born inherently evil but must learn to be evil? So many hands are thrown into the air with a "but, but, but". Suddenly there is no distinction. Go figure.

 

[Melach]

1 Timothy 1:13
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

Paul did not say he was evil, he said he did evil things because he was ignorant and his ignorance led him in unbelief. If he was in fact evil he would not have responded the way he did on the Damascus road nor would have he desired the good when the Law informed him of what constituted goodness. Evil rejects truth it is what makes it evil. Satan is evil. Please learn the difference between being culpable of evil because we are born into darkness and actually becoming evil.

unreal.

paul responded the way he did because GOD had mercy and grace on him.....

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

if you know of something in Leviticus that contradicts the plain meaning of Haggai 2, that maybe i am forgetting, please quote it bro

Well now I'm having my doubts because the language can be interpreted either way. I've always read this as whatever touched something most holy would become holy, but now I see it could be saying whatever touches something most holy must already be holy. The question is if someone unholy had touched the altar would that have made it unholy? Sin offerings were most holy. Did the sinner who slayed the animal become holy or make the offering unholy?

Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy. Exodus 29:37​

​

And thou shalt sanctify them, that they may be most holy: whatsoever toucheth them shall be holy. Exodus 30:29​

 

[GWH]

I think we'd have to have you explain "omnilove" because "omni" is essentially defined as "all or universally." But we have verses like this to consider:

NKJ Hebrews 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."

Since lawless is sin (1J3:4), and unrighteousness is sin (1J5:17) and since I see this simply boiling down to disobedience, and since I see disobedience in essence highly overlapped with unbelief so as to be used in Scripture in parallel to unbelief, I come away with God essentially hating lawlessness, unrighteousness, sin, disobedience, unbelief. There are probably more things to consider as my research on obedience in the Text seems to show it is connected to many, many Biblical words and phrases.

So, can you narrow down, explain, refine your word "omnilove" for me?

I don't remember seeing and replying to this post previously, so regarding refining "omnilove" HB 1:9 teaches that God hates all sin, and 1TM 2:3-4 teaches that God loves all sinners.

However, RM 9:13, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated" is a biblical idiom expressing election for a purpose without regard to sin or salvation.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

You have it back to front. Sin is derived from evil. When you reject God's will (that which is true) and replace it with your own will (which is a lie), therefore thinking in terms of evil, you end up sinning.

James 1:15
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

And I was talking about character, not deeds. The constant rejection of truth leads to the development of an evil character. Evil rejects truth and builds on lies.

It never ceases to amaze me how we are constantly taught in the Church to separate the sin from the sinner, yet the moment I say people are not born inherently evil but must learn to be evil? So many hands are thrown into the air with a "but, but, but". Suddenly there is no distinction. Go figure.

This is really turning into an interesting conversation. You are almost 100% correct IMO. Either the translators were sloppy when they translated different Greek words as the same English word evil, or it's a limitation of the English language that causes this confusion.

However, I say 'almost' because humans do not have to learn to do evil; they will do so naturally because of their fallen nature, ie separation from God,

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I have never suggested that, it is simply the way you perceive it according to your bias.

I'm wondering how people who are opposing your view think God transforms them

 

[sawdust]

unreal.

paul responded the way he did because GOD had mercy and grace on him.....

God has mercy and grace on everyone but some respond negatively. What's your point? You are completely off base from what I was talking about.

Go back to the start of the conversation and follow through on topic.