Why do some people believe and some do not?

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Jul 31, 2013
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At what point would you consider that Pharoah's heart had been 'softened.'
at the last plague, instead of saying 'your God' he says, 'the LORD' - Exodus 10:24

God tells us, all these things took place the way they did so Egypt would know He is God. and we read later that news spread all over Canaan, and they feared Him.
i hope, as Pharoah was dying in the Reed Sea, that he understood this also.
 
Dec 27, 2024
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wut?

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: Acts 17:30
Which is the external proclamation of the gospel. It's still impossible for them to do it so they have no ethical obligation to. They have a legal one, just as the Hebrews had an obligation to get circumcised to enter the covenant, they doesn't entail men were morally obliged or even capable of becoming Israelites.
They're already dead, only those God quickens will be able to respond in faith. Their sins condemn them, and faith saves, but these are not parallel conditions.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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it's kind of helpful to understand some of the history here.
Agree. It's simply a convenience at this point to refer to some things as "isms."

t's really both, and it seems to make no sense at all, but it's obvious that it is actually reality.
Agree for the most part as this pertains to the theological concept being discussed.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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Repentance and faith are essential elements of salvation, yet they are not moral duties required of all people indiscriminately.
I've taken the liberty of striking a few words - not to change what you said, but to refine it to ask a question:

Do you not think repentance and faith are the duty - the responsibility - of all mankind and that all of mankind is obligated to submit in reverent obedience to their Creator?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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it's kind of helpful to understand some of the history here.
there really is no such thing as 'calvanism' - all of his theological positions were written down earlier by Augustine, and all those things, Augustine wrote because he was arguing against what he saw as heresy. the so called 5 points? Calvin never wrote these. people arguing against Arian heresy did later, citing things Calvin had written.

specifically, the idea was present very early on among people that they were responsible for saving themselves - that their decisions, their works, their will, their individual contributions to living a life as a Christian were the things that made them saved. and the reaction of the orthodoxy was whoah there, slow your roll bro. it's God who saves, and Him alone - no one can boast; none of us deserve this, nobody is receiving this except by mercy, and God is God: hence sovereign.

so there is this idea of complete humility vs a kind of subtle humanistic pride happening, even though probably neither side is really trying to be wrong. and down the line it turns into a debate over how free our will really is, and one side accuses the other of alternately damning innocent babies or thinking themselves to be God's puppetmaster.

i rather think the reality is something in between that we are totally incapable as humans of understanding fully. and the physical world ought to be showing us this too, now that our knowledge of it has increased, because you look at a beam of light, and it acts like a particle, but turn your eyes away for a second, and it acts like a wave - it's really both, and it seems to make no sense at all, but it's obvious that it is actually reality. there are hundreds of very clear scriptures that tell us God sovereignly chooses who to save and brings it about, sometimes absolutely despite those peoples will. and there are hundreds of scriptures that tell us humans have free agency that we are culpable for.

it's a mystery and we should respect it. if i have to pick a side in an unresolvable theological issue? i am 100% always picking the one that gives God the most glory and me the least.
I don't really see a need to insert babies into these types of conversations... and view those who do as being emotionally manipulative. We KNOW God is loving, just, and merciful, etc, and that babies have nothing to repent of, nor the ability to do so, or to believe anything. Since babies are of the natural world , even with my position of all being required to be born again... regardless of the sin issue, and all that entails... God is more than capable of making them alive in Christ just as He did us, while we were still dead in our sins. Just to be clear I am not thinking you introduced babies into the convo... and I am aware also that Calvin did not pen the five points of tulip as they are known. Another thing that is very off in these discussions are those who rail so vehemently against man's inability, desiring to have such a viewpoint land squarely on Calvinists, as if Arminius did not teach the same thing, which is also taught in Molinism. So they don't even know what they are talking about, while they put themselves forward as teachers defending the Truth of Scripture, which very much does paint the natural man as one in need of being rescued, which God does, due to His great and everlasting love for us.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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There is no such thing as ethics in the bible. That is man's creation
Interesting statement. I did some research some time ago on the word "morality" in the Bible. It's simply not used in any meaningful or remotely extensive way. Instead, our Text prefers the word righteousness and all the words we see related to it. Since "morality" as I recall was coined in the 3rd century BC era, you'd think if God wanted to discuss righteousness in men's terminology of morals and ethics, He would have done so during the 1st century AD. IMO when we buy into such terminology, we open ourselves to all the confusion of men that goes along with it.
 
Nov 1, 2024
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Which is the external proclamation of the gospel. It's still impossible for them to do it so they have no ethical obligation to. They have a legal one, just as the Hebrews had an obligation to get circumcised to enter the covenant, they doesn't entail men were morally obliged or even capable of becoming Israelites.
They're already dead, only those God quickens will be able to respond in faith. Their sins condemn them, and faith saves, but these are not parallel conditions.
All people are capable of repentance. Most choose not to do so because their works are evil and they love the world more than God.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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Hover your mouse pointer over the Like button on the right and a bar of options should appear. Then select which one you want.
Thanks. Have used it many times in the past. Now the choices appear and immediately disappear leaving a white bar where the buttons were. Then can't click with any response.
 
Dec 27, 2024
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Can you quote a Scripture that says, "God is wrath"?
In reference to his just condemnation. Whether or not he is wrath in the same sense he's love isn't the point, but he is certainly wrathful, vengeful and just. Justice entails punishment.

Nahum 1:2-3
The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies.
The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and the Lord will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet..
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Malachi 1:2-3
“I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob's brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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at the last plague, instead of saying 'your God' he says, 'the LORD' - Exodus 10:24

God tells us, all these things took place the way they did so Egypt would know He is God. and we read later that news spread all over Canaan, and they feared Him.
i hope, as Pharoah was dying in the Reed Sea, that he understood this also.
Scripture says that no one can call Him LORD except by the Spirit (should this be capitalized?).
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,349
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Did that too and it's remained through a few system shut offs and back ons. Will try the cache reset. But I find the buttons limiting anyway. Thanks for the assist.
Microsoft broke the reactions with upgrades, and many are using Mozilla Firefox instead because
they still work in that browser. There have been threads about this in the user2user forum... They
will also work if you are using a phone, though you have to hover where the reaction would be
if you could see it, and then either select that blank spot or wait for the name of it to appear
above and select that, which will insert the reaction. Other browsers work also...


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