Why do some people believe and some do not?

[Magenta]

All people are capable of repentance. Most choose not to do so because their works are evil and they love the world more than God.

They love darkness, and suppress the truth in unrighteousness, being slaves to sin and captive to the will
of the devil, unable to receive the spiritual things of God and also incapable of submitting to God's law.

Scripture actually says they ARE darkness. Light came into the world
in the Person of Jesus Christ and darkness does not comprehend it.

The natural man is inherently hostile in his mind toward God.

 

[studier]

In reference to his just condemnation. Whether or not he is wrath in the same sense he's love isn't the point, but he is certainly wrathful, vengeful and just. Justice entails punishment.

Sticking with Scripture is the point, don't you agree?

Yes, God exercising wrath is Scriptural.

 

[Mem]

I'll have to do some extensive homework to even attempt to answer this question. But it intrigues me enough that I'm willing to put in the effort.

Currently, however, I regret that I have been shorted the time. BBL with my conclusion(s) if I've come to any at all.

 

[studier]

Try restarting your browser. May be a memory issue.

Seems browser or system related. Bad on old and new PC - Win 10 & 11 - good on new Mac. Perfection continues to escape mankind...

 

[GWH]

i simply don't believe 'applying the fact of His love' to scripture means rejecting scripture.

His word says multiple times that He hardened the heart of Pharoah and of his army. this isn't a translation issue; it's not a debateable point. it's fact.

for you to say He didn't? when He clearly says He did? then tell me i am the one who is imagining things? that's ludicrous.

instead of rejecting what the scripture says, we should try to understand why it says what it does.

Re "His word says multiple times that He hardened the heart of Pharoah and of his army. this isn't a translation issue; it's not a debateable point. it's fact. for you to say He didn't? when He clearly says He did? then tell me i am the one who is imagining things? that's ludicrous.": I reprove you for failing to acknowledge the fact that the GW teaches God loves and wants to save everyone. Instead, you imply He doesn't, even though you cannot bring yourself to admit it.

Re "instead of rejecting what the scripture says, we should try to understand why it says what it does.": Yes, so explain why, since you don't like my harmonization of the two Scriptures by interpreting the OT in light of the NT.

 

[HeIsHere]

Sticking with Scripture is the point, don't you agree?

Yes, God exercising wrath is Scriptural.

Yes, but what does it mean.

 

[HeIsHere]

Instead, you imply He doesn't, even though you cannot bring yourself to admit it.

That happens a lot with a certain line of interpretation.

 

[studier]

Yes, but what does it mean.

What does "exercising wrath" mean?

 

[Magenta]

John 3:19-20 and from Psalm 10:4 and Ephesians 5::8z This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. The wicked reviles the Lord. You were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord.

 

[Magenta]

Psalm 14:1-3; Job 15:16

 

[GWH]

@GWH @posthuman @Mem re: YHWH hardening Pharoah's heart:


NKJ Exod. 4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

3 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

NKJ Exod. 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said.

NKJ Exod. 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

NKJ Exod. 9:12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

NKJ Exod. 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.

NKJ Exod. 10:1 Now the LORD said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him,

NKJ Exod. 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go.

So, how does this hardening work?


Then, when Paul writes his commentary about this, what does he mean by this statement:

NKJ Rom 9:18-22 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared (this is a passive verb, so someone or something had prepared them) for destruction,

Re "As I read the posts here, it seems there are at least 2 choices for unbelief: All are enlightened, then some choose darkness, and some are hardened by God into darkness.": A better wording IMO is "all sinners retain the image of God, which means moral conscience and consciousness of God, so they are able to seek Him--or not" vs. "God softens only the elect so they can be saved from hell. [ignoring the hateful/blasphemous implication!]"

Re "What about belief - how does that work - do some men retain the light they were given and then seek more or respond positively when more is made available?: Yes, although wording along the lines suggested previously accords better with my understanding.

Re "So, how does this hardening work?": That is a good question. Was Pharoah's heart softened/saved prior to God working His will?

 

[ParticularWife]

There is no such thing as ethics in the bible. That is man's creation

I reject the premise of the objection and direct attention to the antithesis between the elect and the reprobate. Though Scripture does not use terms like "moral" and "legal," it distinguishes between human responsibility and God’s sovereign work. Faith is a gift of God, and those to whom it is not given cannot possess it. The distinction between "moral" and "legal" duties arises from the teaching of Scripture on the covenant of works and the covenant of grace. Romans 6:14 underscores the separation of law and grace, which forms the foundation for this distinction. Under the covenant of works, God demanded perfect obedience to His law, a duty impossible for fallen man to fulfill.

Faith follows regeneration; man cannot believe apart from the grace of God (Romans 9:16). Salvation is entirely the work of God and not caused by any human act. Unbelief condemns man, for he is without excuse. His failure to repent is not the cause of his condemnation but evidence of his condition. He is already damned apart from repentance, which is the fruit of salvation, not its cause.

Philippians 2:12-13 teaches that man is called to work out salvation, yet it is God who works in him to will and to do according to His purpose. Romans 3:20 reveals that man cannot turn to God through his own strength, and Acts 11:18 declares that repentance is granted by God. Salvation belongs to the Lord, and man contributes nothing to its accomplishment.

 

[Magenta]

From Romans 6:19-21 You used to offer your body in slavery to impurity and to escalating wickedness when you were slaves to sin. What fruit did you reap at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The outcome of those things is death.

 

[ParticularWife]

What does "exercising wrath" mean?

God's wrath is tethered to justice and vengeance, distinct from the chastisement of His children.
This wrath is an aspect of His holiness and justice, not an emotional reaction but a necessary consequence of His moral nature confronting sin.
God's wrath is bound to His covenantal faithfulness, ensuring evil faces resistance and divine justice prevails.
When God exercises His wrath, it is a deliberate and righteous act fulfilling His purposes. It is never impulsive or vindictive, but a reflection of His unchanging nature.

You can find this all throughout the theology works of Geerhardus Vos and John Gill, but some relevant passages are: Habakkuk 1:13; Romans 1:18, 2:5,3:25-26; Hebrews 12:29; Deuteronomy 28:15–68; 2 Kings 17:18; Jeremiah 31:32; Psalm 7:11; Revelation 20:11–15; Isaiah 53:4–6; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Genesis 6:5–7, 19:24–25; Lamentations 2:1–5.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I reject the premise of the objection and direct attention to the antithesis between the elect and the reprobate. Though Scripture does not use terms like "moral" and "legal," it distinguishes between human responsibility and God’s sovereign work. Faith is a gift of God, and those to whom it is not given cannot possess it.

Faith is not a gift; salvation is. People choose to believe or not. All are responsible to God because he has shown them his righteousness and power. They choose to not believe because they love darkness

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Romans 1:18-22​

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And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:19-21​

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Faith follows regeneration; man cannot believe apart from the grace of God (Romans 9:16).

This is absurd. Faith leads to regeneration. I believed in God when I was cursing Christians. Jesus opened my eyes to see what I was following was him, so I chose to believe in the gospel

 

[ParticularWife]

Faith is not a gift; salvation is. People choose to believe or not. All are responsible to God because he has shown them his righteousness and power. They choose to not believe because they love darkness

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Romans 1:18-22​

​

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:19-21​

I'm not interested in relegislating this, I disagree and you can easily discover why by reading Martin Luther. I can also quote the Bible, but I'm not remotely about to engage in some rote recapitulation of something you either do or should know the answer to. To put it briefly, I reject your interpretation of key passages and do not believe humans are capable of turning to God without the direct work of the Holy Spirit to regenerate them first. If you want to have this square dance you'll need another partner, I'm not a debate bro.

 

[GWH]

Repentance and faith are essential elements of salvation, yet they are not moral duties required of all people indiscriminately. These are gifts of grace given to the elect by God. A moral duty is an obligation imposed on all humans by God's moral law (e.g., not to lie or steal). A legal duty pertains to the covenant of works or God's requirements for salvation, which no one can fulfill apart from divine grace.

Fallen humanity is spiritually dead and utterly unable to repent or believe in the gospel apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. To command repentance as a universal moral duty would imply that humans have the natural ability to fulfill it. Moreover, if repentance is framed as a duty for all, it would imply that fulfilling this duty contributes to one's salvation, which is contrary to the doctrines of grace.

As J.C. Philpot states, 'Salvation is not the fruit of our works, but the purchase of the blood of Christ.'
Christ's atonement was particular and sufficient to secure the salvation of the elect. The call to repentance is still required, but it is effectual and specific to the elect, not as a general obligation for all humanity. This is also entailed by the rejection of common grace and the 'well-meant offer,' which John Gill, Gordon Clark, and Kuyper certainly did. As Philpot further observes, 'The offer of the gospel is not a general offer to all men, but a special and effectual call to the elect.'

Re "To command repentance as a universal moral duty would imply that humans have the natural ability to fulfill it.": No, it may say that humans have the God-given volition to cooperate with His will--or not.

Re "Moreover, if repentance is framed as a duty for all, it would imply that fulfilling this duty contributes to one's salvation, which is contrary to the doctrines of grace": So don't frame it that way! Instead, understand EPH2:8-10 to teach that sinners are able to repent of being hard-hearted and seek God, who offers grace/salvation, which is accepted by NONMERITORIOUS faith.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I'm not interested in relegislating this, I disagree and you can easily discover why by reading Martin Luther. I can also quote the Bible, but I'm not remotely about to engage in some rote recapitulation of something you either do or should know the answer to. To put it briefly, I reject your interpretation of key passages and do not believe humans are capable of turning to God without the direct work of the Holy Spirit to regenerate them first. If you want to have this square dance you'll need another partner, I'm not a debate bro.

What does Martin Luther have to do with anything? lol

 

[studier]

Re "As I read the posts here, it seems there are at least 2 choices for unbelief: All are enlightened, then some choose darkness, and some are hardened by God into Johndarkness.": A better wording IMO is "all sinners retain the image of God, which means moral conscience and consciousness of God, so they are able to seek Him--or not" vs. "God softens only the elect so they can be saved from hell. [ignoring the hateful/blasphemous implication!]"

Re "What about belief - how does that work - do some men retain the light they were given and then seek more or respond positively when more is made available?: Yes, although wording along the lines suggested previously accords better with my understanding.

Re "So, how does this hardening work?": That is a good question. Was Pharoah's heart softened/saved prior to God working His will?

I think you and I are close on some things. The following is obviously my wording and I'm not speaking for you:

• John1:9 and Rom1 speak respectively about all men having been given light and having experiential knowledge of certain characteristics of God's and thus even more than just His existence. Rom1 makes it clear that men can see no value in this and reject Him. General Revelation.
• You also cover conscience which I agree with conceptually as much as I've read your work.
  • If we simply sit and read early Genesis we can see the concept of men knowing God's standards. In my view this comes from being created in His likeness and His obvious involvement with men in the beginning.
• I don't think it's a huge chasm to go from general revelation and acceptance of special revelation of God's Son. A chasm, yes, but light to more light. I land pretty heavily on John6 and God drawing men by teaching them according to Jesus. He simply says those who hear and learn from the Father come to Him and God gives them to Him.

I think I gave my take on Pharaoh a short time ago. I don't think one case represents all, IOW God has many ways and means of doing things. But I think the hardening begins with man and God in perfect essence takes it from there as He so desires and for His purposes. He's given all men light. What they do with it is up to them. What He does with men afterward and along the way in response is up to Him. If He wants our involvement I suppose He will ask or provide for it as He did with Abraham before He visited re: Sodom.