Why does Eschatology divide the Church into 3 camps

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Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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#21
Jesus warned us that many false prophets would come after Him. We are in a spiritual war on the truth, the powers of darkness are in high places working hard to deceive the whole world and they would even deceive the elect if it were possible.
The Holy Spirit will lead true believers into all truth, but we must put on the whole Armour of God to withstand the attack of the enemy.
The Holy Scriptures are not always easy to interpret correctly, only God can give us discernment needed to know the truth of His Word.
Don't say the Holy spirit WILL lead..., He needs to lead you right now.
For a long time i followed men's explanation about these things, read the bible severally alongside thousands of men's own works/ understanding but all these positions kept contradicting and non made sense to me no matter how much i tried.

I gave up and in total humility told God whatever it is, let it be- coz i'm a fool with no understanding.
Now everything is clear to me.

Jesus even in His trial told those in attendance that from that moment on, they'll see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.
He also told His disciples that they won't finish going round all the towns in Jerusalem till He comes back
He also told them that some standing there would not taste death before he comes.
Full chapters of John 14/15/16 - Jesus explains how He comes back, even the disciples didn't understand then.

Let no one say that it is a point in future, Jesus has always been coming and coming as a spirit into believers who make up the kingdom of God. Until the last believer is added into the kingdom, the end will come. It is the end we are waiting for.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
790
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#22
To the OP:

I will add my personal experience.

You are right that this is non-salvic issue and therefore it should not be a reason to leave.

But:

I attended a premilennial church. Almost half of preachings/teachings were about Israel, end times, antichrist, "last generation", "signs of last times", 7 years, 3.5 years and various speculations about future and politics.

It has become so annoying and useless.... Then I attended another premillenial church where they were not preaching much about that and I was OK there.

So, it depends on how much does your church turn around the eschatology in its daily life, bible studies, regular preachings.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
790
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#23
You cannot grow in a church that teaches about Israel, Russia, Iran, 1000 years, microchips and still repeats Daniel, Rev and searches for all kinds of prophecies and events in the world.

They have no time to teach you Greek, to introduce you to church development and history, to apostolic fathers, to various theological views etc. They are just chasing their own idea ignoring everything different.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
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54
HBG. Pa. USA
#24
As to how this affects our Christian walk, it does make a difference. If we believe that God has not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation, and we know that the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are for the unbelieving and the ungodly, as well as the enemies of God, we cannot in good conscience agree to a distortion of Gospel truth and Bible truth.
Salvation issue also. Many teach but there are not many teachers; only one and that is Christ. If we take upon ourselves the roll of teaching and it is not our's to take we set ourselves up to be deceived and to deceive others.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#26
This is quite shocking for me, I had no idea that this issue is so serious. You make some very serious accusations against my pastor, saying that he's teaching the doctrine of Demons is deeply distressing for me to hear.
I will certainly endevour to get to the bottom of this, I really believed that my Church was as close to the Biblical truth as possible. I changed quite a few Churches, looking for a truly faithful Church that teaches the truth of Gods word and I was sure i had finnaly found it. That's why I'm so shocked to read your comments.
I pray that God would guide my as I seek to worship Him in Spirit and Truth. Jesus said seek and ye shall find, knock and it will be opened so I'm holding Him to His Word.
IMO you should approach this prayerfully, and not get agitated, as some IMO are trying to get you. The issue is minor compared to the real issues: following true doctrine and loving one another. If your church is not harping on the issue (which I doubt an amillenial church is), leave it alone and study. Then you can come to a conclusion yourself and make the right decision without overreacting and causing problems for yourself. I don't agree with amillennialism, but the real issue may have been that the people who left were too concerned about eschatology, which is typical of dispensationalists. Perfect your walk and eschatology is basically irrelevant.
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
363
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#27
So if I understand you correctly, you're saying all true believers will arrive at the same conclusion and those who disagree are not true believers
That is not what I said, but since you bring it up, there is one truth, the bible says if we ask (pray), seek (study), and knock (humbly set our own opinions aside), the door of understanding will be opened to us. Eventually we should all arrive at the same truth. But as long as one does not have ears to hear and eyes to see (are closed-minded) they will never accept the truth.

"My sheep (christians) hear (understand) My voice (truth) and they follow Me" (obey Christ).
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
363
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#28
"This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you"
Tit 1:5
Yes, each congregation should have elders (pasters). However, one elder is not appointed above another. The elders are to discuss together and make sure the church stays true to the doctrine of Christ, and to settle disputes within their congregation. No elder is above another elder, and no elder is to be the overseer of many congregations. There is no hierarchy (ladder to climb / promotions). And only Christ is the overseer of all the congregations of His church. Such positions as 'pope' are unbiblical.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
790
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#29
Yes, each congregation should have elders (pasters). However, one elder is not appointed above another. The elders are to discuss together and make sure the church stays true to the doctrine of Christ, and to settle disputes within their congregation. No elder is above another elder, and no elder is to be the overseer of many congregations. There is no hierarchy (ladder to climb / promotions). And only Christ is the overseer of all the congregations of His church. Such positions as 'pope' are unbiblical.
Bishops are above elders. And, obviously, if Titus and Paul appointed elders in churches, they were also hierarchicaly above them.


A minimal hierarchy in the Bible, is:

Father
Jesus Christ
Apostles (probably together with their companions like Titus, Timotheus etc).
Bishops (guardians)
Elders (presbyters)
Deacons (ministers)
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#30
Bishops are above elders. And, obviously, if Titus and Paul appointed elders in churches, they were also hierarchicaly above them.


A minimal hierarchy in the Bible, is:

Father
Jesus Christ
Apostles (probably together with their companions like Titus, Timotheus etc).
Bishops (guardians)
Elders (presbyters)
Deacons (ministers)
There's no hierarchy with God and the Father is with respect to the son. The father is and will always be greater than the son just like the teacher is greater than the student, but the Father and the son are ONE- meaning that it is just the same person who took the position of a servant.
In Jesus there's fullness of God, that's why there's no name (authority) greater than Jesus.
Bishops/elders/deacon are all to serve rather than being a hierarchy, haven't you heard that John the baptist is the least in the kingdom yet of all men born of women he was the greatest?
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
363
83
#31
Bishops are above elders. And, obviously, if Titus and Paul appointed elders in churches, they were also hierarchicaly above them.


A minimal hierarchy in the Bible, is:

Father
Jesus Christ
Apostles (probably together with their companions like Titus, Timotheus etc).
Bishops (guardians)
Elders (presbyters)
Deacons (ministers)
Um, no, we all have our work in Christ, no one is above another, only Christ is the head (authority), and bishop, elder, and paster mean the same thing.

"One says I am of Appollo, another of Cephas, another of Paul, is Christ divided?" They are only fellow servants, Christ is the only one above us all.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
790
113
#32
Um, no, we all have our work in Christ, no one is above another, only Christ is the head (authority), and bishop, elder, and paster mean the same thing.

"One says I am of Appollo, another of Cephas, another of Paul, is Christ divided?" They are only fellow servants, Christ is the only one above us all.
Apollo, Cephas, Paul were all apostles, equal to each other. Teaching the same Christ. This verse is not against hierarchy. Its against division.
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
363
83
#33
Apollo, Cephas, Paul were all apostles, equal to each other. Teaching the same Christ. This verse is not against hierarchy. Its against division.
God does not love any of His children more than the others.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
790
113
#34
There's no hierarchy with God and the Father is with respect to the son. The father is and will always be greater than the son just like the teacher is greater than the student, but the Father and the son are ONE- meaning that it is just the same person who took the position of a servant.
In Jesus there's fullness of God, that's why there's no name (authority) greater than Jesus.
Bishops/elders/deacon are all to serve rather than being a hierarchy, haven't you heard that John the baptist is the least in the kingdom yet of all men born of women he was the greatest?
No, Father and Son are not the same person.
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#36
Thanks Ahwatukee, I'm noting all of this down and I will present it to our senior Pastor on Sunday. I just hope he takes the time to consider it all carefully and give me a thorough Biblical response. I don't like rocking the boat, but sometimes it has to be done. Human nature being what it is, I know that nobody likes confrontation.
The Pastor always tells us to check the scriptures to make sure he's teaching us accurately, he says that the Word of God must always be the final authority in all matters
I do not think you should confront your pastor over this, unless it is to say you think he should not present his view on endtimes as the correct one but rather should present the differing views. Share his own opinion on which he thinks is correct, yes, but teach it as the right view, no. It's just not a salvational issue. I've met many men who walk with God who hold a different view than me on endtimes.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#37
No, Father and Son are not the same person.
That is a lie that has been told for 2000 years now and still counting.

Who do you think is talking here?

Zac 12:10“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirita of grace and supplication. They will look onb me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

How does the Father send the son? By becoming the son, take a look.

Mal 3:1“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before ME. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.

Isa 40:
3A voice of one calling:
“In the wilderness prepare
the way for the Lorda ;
make straight in the desert
a highway for our God.

Mark 1:1The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,a the Son of God,b 2as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”c
3“a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’ ”d
4And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 6John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you withe water, but he will baptize you withf the Holy Spirit.”
9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

Can't you see that in Malachi, God Almighty sends Himself but when on earth He refers to Himself as the messenger of the covenant?
Isaiah talked of the same prophesy but called Him God. Mark clarified for us by quoting both Malachi ans Isaiah and confirming to us who the messenger is that prepares the way for our God, the messenger of the covenant who is non other than Jesus.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
790
113
#39
That is a lie that has been told for 2000 years now and still counting.

Who do you think is talking here?

Zac 12:10“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirita of grace and supplication. They will look onb me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

How does the Father send the son? By becoming the son, take a look.

Mal 3:1“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before ME. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.

Isa 40:
3A voice of one calling:
“In the wilderness prepare
the way for the Lorda ;
make straight in the desert
a highway for our God.

Mark 1:1The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,a the Son of God,b 2as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”c
3“a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’ ”d
4And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 6John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you withe water, but he will baptize you withf the Holy Spirit.”
9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

Can't you see that in Malachi, God Almighty sends Himself but when on earth He refers to Himself as the messenger of the covenant?
Isaiah talked of the same prophesy but called Him God. Mark clarified for us by quoting both Malachi ans Isaiah and confirming to us who the messenger is that prepares the way for our God, the messenger of the covenant who is non other than Jesus.
This is a serious heresy, but its not the topic of this thread.