Why does Eschatology divide the Church into 3 camps

[MarkWilliams]

I can't give you understanding in this but i'll quote a few verses that may help.

John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

John 16: 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

So Jesus says the spirit of Truth was there with the disciples but He will later be in them. And He also says that if He (Jesus) doesn't go, the spirit of Truth will not come in them but if He (Jesus) goes, the spirit of Truth will come in them.

To me this is very clear that Jesus was saying He (Jesus) must go and come back as the spirit of Truth coz if He doesn't, the spirit won't come, He will remain there with them (disciples). And i'm not alone in this thinking, prophet Isaiah also thought it was so:

Isa 9:
6For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Name= Authority
so the childs authority would be:

Wonderful Counselor= Holy spirit
Everlasting Father= Father
Prince of peace= son

That's why i said non of the eschatological point view is correct because Jesus has always been coming since the disciples time.

I have already been called a heretic and i wouldn't want to continue with this. cheers.

Don't allow people to upset you, you are just as entitled to hold to the understanding that God has given you as anyone is to theirs. If that's what you truly believe the scripture is saying, then it's OK. We won't all see eye to eye on ever subject, let every man be a liar and let God be true

 

[garee]

Thanks Garee, I do appreciate you taking the time to articulate and explain this to me in simple terms.
I have recently converted from Roman Catholicism, so I'm trying to learn as much as I can about God's Word. We were never encouraged to read the Bible in the Catholic Church, we were actually discouraged and told that it was too complicated for the ordinary person and you had to go to seminary for many years to understand it.
I now know why they don't want us to study the Bible, it exposes the RCC as an apostate Church.

Thanks for the reply

Amen, its a dark place with little light coming from the scriptures. They have another source of faith that they called Patron saints or what scripture calls workers with familiar spirits .

The reformers in the most part followed after the signified meanings found in parables called Amil . The Catholic I believe followed the same but had different conclusions. It would be my educated guess that about two-thirds of the Christian family espoused an amillennial eschatology at that time . The Catholic simply do not want the pew sitters to study according to the loving commandment in 2 Timothy 2:15.

No man can serve two teaching masters in that way (love one hate the other, hate one love the other )seeing a person must seek the approval of venerated men a form of worship...sinful men like all sinners after some sort of higharchy where men lord it over the faith of others . Seeking the oral traditions of the fathers called a law of the father usurps the authority of seeking after the approval of God not seen. Not a salvation issue but more of how can we hear the voice of God by not seeking the approval of men . The warning in regard to the manys antichrist involves that we do not need a man seen to teach us . It makes the work of the promised Holy Spirit without effect.

2 Timothy 2:15 [Full Chapter]

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

The danger of the postmilenial/amilenial to Salvation is found in Matt 24:36-25:13. They are not keeping watch for the Lord to return at any moment but believe they need to take over governments, schools, the entertainment industry, technology industries, business community, churches, and families to rule the earth and make it a better place before Jesus can return.

 

[Ogah]

Hello MarkWilliams,

First, It is definitely not a trivial issue. Regarding Amillennialism, It is a case of not believing what the word of God clearly states and changing its true meaning.

Revelation 19:11-021 is a detailed account of the event of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish His literal millennial kingdom. Immediately fallowing that from Revelation 20:1-7 we have reference to a thousand year period mentioned 6 times. Those who claim that there is no thousand years are simply not believing in the literal meaning of God's word, but instead have applied a allegorical or symbolic meaning to the millennial kingdom. A good rule of thumb when reading Revelation is:

"If the plain, literal meaning makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense."

Below is what God added to the end of His book of Revelation as a warning to those who change His word:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. nd if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." - Rev.22:18-19

By purposely changing the meaning of Christ's literal thousand year kingdom, they have indeed added to or taken away from the meaning of the words of this prophecy. One of the biggest problems regarding eschatology today, is those interpreting scripture that is meant to be taken literally, but instead allegorizing/spiritualizing or symbolizing it.

Amillennialism means that they do not believe in a literal thousand years. But the truth is that they have spiritualized the meaning making it an unknowable amount of time. They believe that the spiritualized thousand years began at the destruction of the temple and that it is still on-going till this very day. This belief also does away with God's coming wrath, the day of the Lord, which is described in detail in Revelation from chapters 6 through 18. Therefore, amillennialism is also doing away with God's coming wrath which has been prophesied from the prophets of old and then by the apostles and now by us. Amillennialism teaches that the world is going to be Christianized in preparation for the Lord's return. Yet, the word of God says just the opposite with the world getting worse, the church being removed, the antichrist being revealed and God's wrath being poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

There is much deception within the church in these last days, and Amillennialism and preterism, are two of the most destructive, false teachings today. My advice to you, is to do your own studies on end-time events and all related scriptural information so that you will be able to discern the truth from all the lies out there.

All that your pastor has done is just adopted a known false teaching, because he did not come to that conclusion of Amillennialism by reading the word of God, but from the false teachings of men.

I will keep you in prayer that God will give you understanding regarding this issue and give you strength to stand on His word.

I think you have said it the way it is. If eschatology should be spiritualized as some are doing, then the whole Bible should too. Which leaves us with no meaning and practicable. All I'm saying is that Eschatology should be understood literally.

 

[hornetguy]

They had become postmilenial/amilenial dominionists (1 Cor 4:8)

You got all of that from this verse?

8 You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us; and indeed, I wish that you had become kings so that we also might reign with you.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

You got all of that from this verse?

They were rejecting Paul's authority as an Apostle because he was poor and had to work. Yes, the context of that verse and the whole letter. It is a good study. I tried to start a discussion on it but nobody was interested.

 

[garee]

The danger of the postmilenial/amilenial to Salvation is found in Matt 24:36-25:13. They are not keeping watch for the Lord to return at any moment but believe they need to take over governments, schools, the entertainment industry, technology industries, business community, churches, and families to rule the earth and make it a better place before Jesus can return.

Not sure about postmillennial but with the Amil position they are to keep watch for at any moment Christ who has no form will come like a thief in the night. Watchers( Christians) does not mean he will not come as a thief in the night. Noah knew it for 120 years .

It does not get any better than it is for those under the wrath of God, daily,

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their "imaginations", and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,Romans 3:18-22

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Not sure about postmillennial but with the Amil position they are to keep watch for at any moment Christ who has no form will come like a thief in the night. Watchers( Christians) does not mean he will not come as a thief in the night. Noah knew it for 120 years .

It does not get any better than it is for those under the wrath of God, daily,

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their "imaginations", and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,Romans 3:18-22

The Amil don't believe in a future reign of Christ on earth so they aren't looking for Him to come and reign.

 

[garee]

They were rejecting Paul's authority as an Apostle because he was poor and had to work. Yes, the context of that verse and the whole letter. It is a good study. I tried to start a discussion on it but nobody was interested.

Paul has no more authority or power of God than the next sinner(sent one) . No higharchy as in "who is the greatest" get venerated the highest among Christians. Christ wins with hands down.

2 Corinthians 4:7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The word apostle with no other meaning added simply mean "sent ones". some have vilated the warning no to add to a o word another meaning it can change the authors intent . When he sends out those with the gospel it defines the word. Moses was sent as well as every prophet one who brings prophecy not of themselves. Its how beautiful are the feet of those he sends . Feet represent the gospel . Its not how beautiful are their mouths.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Your right, our Pastor said the millennium referd to in revelation is symbolic of a long period of time.

There is absolutely no reason to suddenly claim that one (a) thousand years are anything but what they mean since that term is repeated six times in seven verses. That is highly significant,

There is NOT A SINGLE number in Revelation which is symbolic. Every number must be taken literally since that is what is written. We have 7 churches, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials (bowls), 7 lamps, 7 Spirits, etc. and all given sequentially. Then we have 24 elders, 4 beasts (living creatures), 144,000 redeemed Israelites. We have 4 angels, 4 winds, 42 months (1,260 days), etc. and you could go right through this book and see that the numbers stated mean exactly what they are supposed to mean.

Can you imagine the confusion that would occur if we treated all these numbers in a cavalier fashion and told others they do not mean what they say?

So how can anyone justify teaching that 1,000 does not literally mean 1,000? This change was made because Catholic Augustine changed the meaning of Millennium, the Catholic church adopted Amillennialism, and the Reformers (who had come out of the Catholic church) failed to seriously question the teachings of Augustine, not only regarding this but also regarding predestination for salvation (which became a Reformed Doctrine). This is what happens when people follow the doctrines of men.

 

[MarkWilliams]

I think you have said it the way it is. If eschatology should be spiritualized as some are doing, then the whole Bible should too. Which leaves us with no meaning and practicable. All I'm saying is that Eschatology should be understood literally.

I'm leaning heavily towards the contrary view now, I believe there are some parts of the Bible that must be taken literally and others such as eschatology not so. If you look at the language used you will find it's mostly figurative language, just as Christ used on many occasions when describing spiritual things.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Paul has no more authority or power of God than the next sinner(sent one) . No higharchy as in "who is the greatest" get venerated the highest among Christians. Christ wins with hands down.

2 Corinthians 4:7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The word apostle with no other meaning added simply mean "sent ones". some have vilated the warning no to add to a o word another meaning it can change the authors intent . When he sends out those with the gospel it defines the word. Moses was sent as well as every prophet one who brings prophecy not of themselves. Its how beautiful are the feet of those he sends . Feet represent the gospel . Its not how beautiful are their mouths.

Paul was the only one with the authority to establish the church in Corinth and write Scripture. The Corinthians were in essence rejecting the Gospel message.

 

[garee]

The Amil don't believe in a future reign of Christ on earth so they aren't looking for Him to come and reign.

He will not establish his kingdom on a corrupted creation. It was a one time outward "demonstration" of a spiritual work of pouring out his unseen Spirit, on flesh, as the lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world . The promise is he would come once in the flesh, which he said does not profit. Those who are looking for another demonstration (God is not a man as us) Scripture informs us s if they believed not the first and final demonstration they deny the father and the Son.

There were some who did beleive as if we did walk by sight, but they were used as an example not to be faithless (no faith) . There will be no more demonstrations of the spiritual work not seen .One per person

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now "henceforth" know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.16

 

[MarkWilliams]

There is absolutely no reason to suddenly claim that one (a) thousand years are anything but what they mean since that term is repeated six times in seven verses. That is highly significant,

There is NOT A SINGLE number in Revelation which is symbolic. Every number must be taken literally since that is what is written. We have 7 churches, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials (bowls), 7 lamps, 7 Spirits, etc. and all given sequentially. Then we have 24 elders, 4 beasts (living creatures), 144,000 redeemed Israelites. We have 4 angels, 4 winds, 42 months (1,260 days), etc. and you could go right through this book and see that the numbers stated mean exactly what they are supposed to mean.

Can you imagine the confusion that would occur if we treated all these numbers in a cavalier fashion and told others they do not mean what they say?

So how can anyone justify teaching that 1,000 does not literally mean 1,000? This change was made because Catholic Augustine changed the meaning of Millennium, the Catholic church adopted Amillennialism, and the Reformers (who had come out of the Catholic church) failed to seriously question the teachings of Augustine, not only regarding this but also regarding predestination for salvation (which became a Reformed Doctrine). This is what happens when people follow the doctrines of men.

Thanks, I was just getting comfortable until I read this. It's like being bipolar, one minute I'm up and the next I'm back down. Oh well back to the drawing board, cheers

 

[Enoch987]

Jesus is meek and mild and would never conquer the world by force.
Jesus is a warrior and will never let Satan have the final victory.
Plus spiritual Platoism (physical world is sinful, spiritual world is good).
Plus the Jews, chosen forever or cursed for disobedience?

 

[garee]

Paul was the only one with the authority to establish the church in Corinth and write Scripture. The Corinthians were in essence rejecting the Gospel message.

It was already established he used Paul to help them understand the gospel.

Paul had no more authority of his own self that you or any Christian . That is a Catholic teaching that we puff up the apostles above that which is written . It is God who works in men to both will and do His good pleasure .He makes men differ from another. Why would any Christian boast as if they did not receive it freely?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your right, our Pastor said the millennium referd to in revelation is symbolic of a long period of time. He also preached that the Lord is building His Church in spite of all the worlds opposition. He said the Church is growing quickly, preparing for the return of Christ.
His preaching was very convincing, I'm sure he would give a good account of himself if he was challenged which I intend to do after I gain some more knowledge.

Prophesy according to the word can not be symbolically interpreted. Our God in deut said of prophets. if a prophet speaks a prophesy, and that prophesy does not happen. That prophet is not from god and we should not fear him.

Peter said prophesy is not to be privately interpreted to man anything we think it means, He too believed in a literal fulfillment of prophesy, especially concerning end times

while these differences should not cause us to hate on each other or divide us (not a salvation issue) sadly many do.. I think we have to realise some prophesy we wil not know what will happen until it does. so saying we are right period. would just be prideful arrogance which needs to be taken down a stroke or two.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

It was already established he used Paul to help them understand the gospel.

Paul had no more authority of his own self that you or any Christian . That is a Catholic teaching that we puff up the apostles above that which is written . It is God who works in men to both will and do His good pleasure .He makes men differ from another. Why would any Christian boast as if they did not receive it freely?

Acts 18 tells the story of how Paul established the church in Corinth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Some take this subject very seriously, they say if you hold to the wrong view you have fallen victim to the Doctrine of Demons. Yet others like yourself don't see it as being an all important component of our faith. I used to think that the Bible was pretty straight forward and not that complicated to understand and most of it is of course, this is just one of those difficult subjects.

it is sad, I was told by a few who believe in symbolic prophesy fulfillment i was not saved. because I believed God was not done with Isreal and he would set up a literal kingdom.

Its sad.

 

[Noose]

Prophesy according to the word can not be symbolically interpreted. Our God in deut said of prophets. if a prophet speaks a prophesy, and that prophesy does not happen. That prophet is not from god and we should not fear him.

Peter said prophesy is not to be privately interpreted to man anything we think it means, He too believed in a literal fulfillment of prophesy, especially concerning end times

while these differences should not cause us to hate on each other or divide us (not a salvation issue) sadly many do.. I think we have to realise some prophesy we wil not know what will happen until it does. so saying we are right period. would just be prideful arrogance which needs to be taken down a stroke or two.

So you are waiting for a seven headed animal out of some sea? whose going to do a taxonomic study?