why does" Grace" change the word?
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We are to study the word not dissect it, this is the confusion. What grace was found with Noah? What grace was Paul given that was sufficient? What grace is given to the believers? What grace was given to Adam and eve?
Love covers a multitude of sin. So what sins are covered hhhmmmmmmm hate lie stealing fornication adultery etc now what kind of love covers sin? Hhmmm.
God's riches at Christ expense is how you define grace. The grace of God cannot be defined and only he possesses is and only he empowers it for its purpose. A Devine Grace ...amazing grace as it were...stop the chaos.
Love covers a multitude of sin. So what sins are covered hhhmmmmmmm hate lie stealing fornication adultery etc now what kind of love covers sin? Hhmmm.
God's riches at Christ expense is how you define grace. The grace of God cannot be defined and only he possesses is and only he empowers it for its purpose. A Devine Grace ...amazing grace as it were...stop the chaos.
That sounds nice, but lots of things that sound nice don't actually work if we think them through carefully.
So, if we really think it through, the above explanation doesn't really work very well. It doesn't really work philosophically, linguistically, practically, or even in relation to the definition of the Greek word for "study" in the famous verse that tells us to study, 2Timothy 2:15.
I'm sure you made your statement with only the best intentions.
So I'm not trying to be a jerk here.
But sometimes we really need to slow way down, and really think things through...
sometimes when we do this, we come to very different conclusions.
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I know what your saying brother but this is how the word of God gets divided. Doctrines of uselessness. The ways of the Lord are not fully understood by us .His ways are not our ways his thoughts are not ours it does more damage than good on most accounts. The grace of God is just that "his grace" that is sufficient for that purpose.
It is one of God's footprints through the pages of his word and we should stand in awe and wonder. Instead we dissect its meaning label it to our understanding and say we know. Sorry but I stand my ground on this. I can humble myself and say I don't know but I'm glad he did.
It is one of God's footprints through the pages of his word and we should stand in awe and wonder. Instead we dissect its meaning label it to our understanding and say we know. Sorry but I stand my ground on this. I can humble myself and say I don't know but I'm glad he did.
Paul isnt the author of hebrews, its not really Known, but nevertheless.
Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."
""I suppose it depends on how you define "press" in that verse. You see "man's striving" and I see "lean on Him for" since it is an upward call of God IN Christ Jesus; not In you as per your flesh or will power.""
let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us<<< this part though doesnt this if accepted into the equation, Kind of point to something we are meant to do, and its something we are meant to put effort into? Paul did say plainly on trial before agrippa what He taught to both Jew and Gentile if someone will accept His own words about His teaching..
acts 26:20-23 "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and DO WORKS meet for repentance......." Also acts 20:20 "And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, 21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. "
Faith toward Jesus" rpentance toward God" turn to God and do works meet for repentance" these are pauls own words, with His life on the Line on trial. making very clear I taught repentance meaning changed actions" works meet for" Our actions should be evidence of Our Faith, we can very Much end up on the wrong side of the resurrection. some of the subjects are tossed out in the end, the ones who wouldnt repent and obey the Lord is all im sayin . actually repenting of Our sin is essential to salvation. this is accheived Because we Have faith. Faith that Hears and obeys because we believe. Like noah and abraham, the hiers of rightsusness by Faith"
The next thing here in hebrews 4, read this part first to realize whats being said.
hebrews 3:12-4:2 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.""
again this is a lesson were suppose to take from what happened in the desert under the first covenant. They Heard Gods word, but didnt mix it with faith. faith is when you do the word Like abraham, Like noah. its not Just to hear it, and believe that it is true. But to Hear it and Believe that it is Gods word and do it as if He is God.
Hebrews 11:6-8" But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that HE IS, and that he is a rewarder of them that DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM. 7 BY FAITH Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, MOVED WITH FEAR, and PREPARED AN ARK to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS BY FAITH. 8 BY FAITH Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, OBEYED; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."
Faith is expressed By Obedience to God Because of what Has been done, Because He sent His Only Son to die and suffer in our Place, to teach Us the way of eternal Life and to become our interceding Priest in Heaven. from cain to the end of revelation, there never is a different message that would not be okay with the message " repent of your sins, and learn and obey Jesus Christ unto salvation" <<<that statement is flawless and infallible, and that one statement sums up everything I will ever really Know
But its okay to disagree i suppose i think if the Word says " you are to do these things" it just says what it says, its not saying " trust me to do the things i am commanding you to do" that to me makes no sense really. Jesus again and again says " do these things. Obey me. take my yoke upon you, why do you call me Lord and dont do what im saying, if you will onbey me...again and again i really cant see what you are saying in those scriptures that really are saying " dont think God wont punish you for your disobedience, look at what He did to the chosen people in the first covenant..."
Id rather Just simplify and believe rather than interpret How to understand it If it says " obey this. do this, dont do this , its meant to actsaully Just have the faithj of a child and say alright, i need to work out this part of my Life in prayer and commitment and sacrifice and surrender, i need to repent of this or that because My beloved savior said it Just before He died.....anyways these comments are pretty long so ....
Gods Grace establishes creation and everything in it. Gods Grace provides Jesus words so that We, mere man can Know the truth from the Throne of God, from the Mouth of Our Savior and Lord Himself.
John 15:14-15 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I HAVE MADE KNOWN UNTO YOU.
John 8:26-30 ".I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. 30As he spake these words, many believed on him."
Jesus words establish Grace, and also Judgement
John 12: He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even AS THE FATHER SAID UNTO ME SO I SPEAK"
He said this because of this prophecy....
deuteronomy 18: 17-19 "And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever WILL NOT HARKEN UNTO MY WORDS WHICH HE SHALL SPEAK in my name, I will REQUIRE IT OF HIM "
Thats Why Jesus says again and again My words, my teachings, my commands, my sayings , keep them, abide in them, they are spirit and Life, whoever Hears my saying and does them......be doers of the word and not only hearers, Jesus words are where Grace comes to us from
John 1:17-18 "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
Hebrews 1:1-3 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high"
Its all about what Jesus said, because He is the One who God sent to speak His words to the World. Grace comes when the adultress is legally dead because the Law had condemned Her Jesus shows Grace By delivering Her from certain death, that is Justified according to Law. and then saying " neither do I condemn you...Now go and sin no More"
She was "saved By Grace" but she was also warned to go and leave her sins......
John 15:14-15 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I HAVE MADE KNOWN UNTO YOU.
John 8:26-30 ".I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. 30As he spake these words, many believed on him."
Jesus words establish Grace, and also Judgement
John 12: He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even AS THE FATHER SAID UNTO ME SO I SPEAK"
He said this because of this prophecy....
deuteronomy 18: 17-19 "And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever WILL NOT HARKEN UNTO MY WORDS WHICH HE SHALL SPEAK in my name, I will REQUIRE IT OF HIM "
Thats Why Jesus says again and again My words, my teachings, my commands, my sayings , keep them, abide in them, they are spirit and Life, whoever Hears my saying and does them......be doers of the word and not only hearers, Jesus words are where Grace comes to us from
John 1:17-18 "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
Hebrews 1:1-3 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high"
Its all about what Jesus said, because He is the One who God sent to speak His words to the World. Grace comes when the adultress is legally dead because the Law had condemned Her Jesus shows Grace By delivering Her from certain death, that is Justified according to Law. and then saying " neither do I condemn you...Now go and sin no More"
She was "saved By Grace" but she was also warned to go and leave her sins......
Originally Posted by Ariel82
Defining terms helps people from arguing needlessly.
And thereby they err if they think there are two graces. God in His grace both justifies and sanctifies.
see what I mean? You slip from 'two aspects of grace' to two 'types of grace' as though they meant the same? Shame on you.
But your definitions cause people to argue needlessly. There are not two 'types of grace'. God's grace is one. He acts in His grace to justify. He acts in the same grace to sanctify. In both cases He is acting in undeserved favour. His unique grace is both justifying and sanctifying. He does not exercise different kinds of grace. This is a fallacy. The same grace (God's gracious undeserved goodness) is active in both cases.
And thereby they err if they think there are two graces. God in His grace both justifies and sanctifies.
see what I mean? You slip from 'two aspects of grace' to two 'types of grace' as though they meant the same? Shame on you.
And thereby they err if they think there are two graces. God in His grace both justifies and sanctifies.
see what I mean? You slip from 'two aspects of grace' to two 'types of grace' as though they meant the same? Shame on you.
Grace does not at all mean we have no obligation to serve and obey God, But it absolutely is taught that way by alot of people. Grace is for obedience to God and it is By Faith in Jesus.
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:13
Whoever would love life and see good days must keep their tongue from evil and their lips from deceitful speech.
1 Peter 3:10
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:20
You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
Gal 5:13
Rom 8:13
Whoever would love life and see good days must keep their tongue from evil and their lips from deceitful speech.
1 Peter 3:10
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:20
You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
Gal 5:13
If you look at the verses beforehand it makes perfect sense.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I SAY UNTO YOU, Love your enemies, BLESS THEM that curse you,DO GOOD TO THEM that hate you, and PRSY FOR THEM which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45THAT YE MAY BE THE CHILDREN of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48BE YE THEREFORE perfect, even AS your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
This is a lesson, it has to be taken as what He is saying like all of His word. if we just pull out " be perfect" that is confusing and leaves alot out. Look at what He is teaching beforehand and realizing what Keps us perfect in Gods Eyes is Mercy we express towards others. Forgive and you will be forgiven, judge not or you will be judged, be merciful and you will receive mercy, give and it shall be given unto you in greater measure...."I desire mercy, not sacrifice" and " Mercy triumphs over Judgement"
look at it like the parable of the unforgiving debtor. We know that Goid has forgiven all our sins and we are full of Joy about this, Now like the man in the parable, we have to go and forgive others debts the same way God did for us, or we end up back before the Judge owing our debts and unable to pay. Perfection is only possible if we truly forgive those who transgress against us, and do good even to those who dont treat us fairly....Because simply, This is How God has treated us, in sending Jesus to die for us and save us when we didnt deserve it based on our behavior. so we no are to go treat others, not based on how they treat us, but on How Jesus has teated us. Grace saves us because we receive it and then express it to others for the name of Christ
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I SAY UNTO YOU, Love your enemies, BLESS THEM that curse you,DO GOOD TO THEM that hate you, and PRSY FOR THEM which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45THAT YE MAY BE THE CHILDREN of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48BE YE THEREFORE perfect, even AS your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
This is a lesson, it has to be taken as what He is saying like all of His word. if we just pull out " be perfect" that is confusing and leaves alot out. Look at what He is teaching beforehand and realizing what Keps us perfect in Gods Eyes is Mercy we express towards others. Forgive and you will be forgiven, judge not or you will be judged, be merciful and you will receive mercy, give and it shall be given unto you in greater measure...."I desire mercy, not sacrifice" and " Mercy triumphs over Judgement"
look at it like the parable of the unforgiving debtor. We know that Goid has forgiven all our sins and we are full of Joy about this, Now like the man in the parable, we have to go and forgive others debts the same way God did for us, or we end up back before the Judge owing our debts and unable to pay. Perfection is only possible if we truly forgive those who transgress against us, and do good even to those who dont treat us fairly....Because simply, This is How God has treated us, in sending Jesus to die for us and save us when we didnt deserve it based on our behavior. so we no are to go treat others, not based on how they treat us, but on How Jesus has teated us. Grace saves us because we receive it and then express it to others for the name of Christ