Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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You're missing the point though. "Require" can mean "want" or "need" whether it's in the KJV or another translation. You still have to make that determination based on context.
Whether want or need, signs are required to the Jew to believe. Gentiles walk by faith not by sight, so signs required.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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1) At the beginning of Israel's journey through the wilderness, they needed water, so Moses was commanded to strike the rock to provide the water.

Then there were 40 years of wandering in the wilderness with no other mention of needing water...

At the end of Israel's journey through the wilderness, they needed water again, so Moses was commanded to speak to the rock to provide the water. This rock was given the same name as the first.

Living Water at beginning > time of trial (40 years) > Living Water at ending


2) Zechariah was given a vision of the Word of Yah to Zerubabbel. The vision was:

Olive Tree > Lampstand > Olive Tree

Both trees provided the pure oil that kept the lamps burning. The Word to Zerubabbel was, "not by strength nor by might but by my Spirit...his hands laid the foundation and his hands will finish it, then you will know my name is Yah."

Revelation explains that the lampstands and olive trees represent churches & witnesses.


3) Zechariah was also given another vision, one of the four chariots sent between two mountains:

Bronze Mountain > Four Chariots > Bronze Mountain

A "mountain" represents a government, while "chariots" represent war.


4) There are multiple passages in scripture that explain there is a former rain and latter rain.

Joel 2:23
“Be glad, O children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God, for he has given the early rain for your vindication; he has poured down for you abundant rain, the early and the latter rain, as before.

James 5:7
Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains.

Deuteronomy 11:14
He will give the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the later rain, that you may gather in your grain and your wine and your oil.

Jeremiah 5:24
They do not say in their hearts, ‘Let us fear the Lord our God, who gives the rain in its season, the autumn rain and the spring rain, and keeps for us the weeks appointed for the harvest.’

----

I submit to you that the reason why some experience miracles while others do not, is probably because - just like a crop - the anointing oil // living water must be replenished just before the end-time harvest of the earth is brought in.

The Rock was struck (i.e. crucified) at the beginning and then the outpouring of the Power from on High was given, jumpstarting the initial growth of the Ecclesia. Then came the time of trial; 2000 years (i.e. 40 Jubilees) of testing, persecution, and war...and after such a long time some of the crops show signs of a lack of water (which reminds me of the parable of the 10 virgins).

So we probably should expect a 2nd outpouring of the Power from on High - and a return of the miracles on a massive scale - just before this grand drama ends.

Power of Holy Spirit > ~ 2000 years (40 Jubilees) > Power of Holy Spirit
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
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I believe we are seeing this at this very time, in these last of the last days and in the midst of this end times deception we are living through.
best wishes
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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Again, your reasoning is flawed.

Firstly, I don't hold that Israel "required" a sign from God that someone was sent to them. I believe they wanted signs, not that they needed signs. They had the prophecies, and didn't see the fulfillment of those prophecies even when He was standing before them.

Secondly, neither premise says anything at all about the gentiles, so you are using a fallacious argument from silence. That fallacy is at the core of your entire thesis in this thread.
I agree. And was it also not said "evil and adulterous generation looks for a sign, and sign shall not be given except the sign of Jonah the prophet". So if we go by that, no signs at all . A more careful analysis is required without jumping to conclusions.

Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Have you ever heard of the 'omniscient narrator' in English class? There are Bible commentators on forums like these who treat themselves as 'omniscient Bible commentators.' The Bible does not teach some of their opinions, but they will tell you why a certain thing is really in the Bible, substituting a reason that fits with one of their unbiblically supported theories. That is what I see with this OP-- assuming these gifts ceased, and then wrapping some Bible verses around their theory, a theory the Bible does not teach.



  1. Signs are not exclusively for Israel, and certainly not during the time God is reaching out to Gentiles.

    Even in Old Testament times, signs could serve a purpose, even if it were secondary in some cases, related to Gentiles.

    Exodus 14:18 KJV: And the Egyptians shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

    Even Gentiles gained knowledge of the LORD through the splitting of the Red Sea and closing it back again.

    Look in the New Testament. We see in Acts 13 that Sergius Paulus believed after he saw Elymas struck blind. Is there any reason to think this Roman official was not a Gentile? In Acts 15, Paul and Barnabas spoke of the signs they performed among the Gentiles. In I Corinthians 12, Paul addresses his readers as former idol worshipers, then teaches them about the spiritual gifts distributed among them.



    If we read Acts and even Hebrews, we see signs and wonders continued on after Christ ascended. Creating doctrine by reading a meaning into some verses that contradicts other scripture is a poor method of interpretation. I Corinthians 12 teaches that manifestations of the Spirit are distributed among the members of the body of Christ as the Spirit wills. There is no passage of scripture that 'cancels' that teaching.



    You take the waiting for a year after dunging the tree quite literally. Trees tend to fruit on an annual basis. But if you want to take it that literally, why would Luke 13 have been spoken right before Christ's death and resurrection rather than a year or years before?

    Peter wrote of his audience repenting that times of refreshing might come. But Paul, writing years later, asked what shall the receiving of them (Israel) be, but life from the dead. I see no reason to think the eschatological scenario changed because Israel's continued rejection of the Messiah. Paul quoted rather old prophecies, from the song of Moses, for example in Romans which applied to Israel's rejection of the Messiah, for example, 'by a foolish nation I will anger you.' We should not think that Israel's rejection of the Messiah as a surprise to God.



    What verses in the passage lead you to that conclusion? How does this argument of yours about Israel rejecting the Holy Spirit have anything to do with your argument for cessationism? How is it different from israel's other rejection of God through idolatry and stoning prophets in past generations?

  2. Paul was given signs and wonders temporary to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)

Thanks for sharing your views, I have addressed many of your points in my various replies in this thread. Cheers.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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I agree. And was it also not said "evil and adulterous generation looks for a sign, and sign shall not be given except the sign of Jonah the prophet". So if we go by that, no signs at all . A more careful analysis is required without jumping to conclusions.

Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
My point 2 addressed this, as well as my post here https://christianchat.com/threads/why-have-the-sign-gifts-ended.196068/post-4429794
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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I went to look both up. I understand what's your point of view. But this did not not answer the contradiction. Explain, how what you said works together with Luke 11:29, which says no signs to the adulterous generation period, and with Acts 28:5, which gives a sign to non Jews? You have to be able to reconcile all successfully and harmoniously, not just some verses. And I am not saying I have it worked out because I don't, but I believe that all Scriptures must fit together.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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I went to look both up. I understand what's your point of view. But this did not not answer the contradiction. Explain, how what you said works together with Luke 11:29, which says no signs to the unbelieving period, and with Acts 28:5, which gives a sign to non Jews? You have to be able to reconcile all successfully and harmoniously. I am not saying I have it worked out because I don't, but I believe that all Scriptures must fit together.
When Jesus mentioned Luke 11:29, he was criticizing Israel who kept on asking for signs from him. But the entire book of John is specifically to record 8 signs for Israel, so Luke 11:29 cannot be about Jesus not giving Israel ANY sign at all.

As for Acts 28:5, I regard that as more of a miracle than a sign, similar to what can happen nowadays, say with John G Lake for example, who had some people claiming that disease germs who touch his flesh miraculously died. It was not a sign for any purpose.

To be a sign, in the strict sense of what my point 1 is saying, it must be a miracle pointing people to believe that this person is sent by God to them.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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To be a sign, in the strict sense of what my point 1 is saying, it must be a miracle pointing people to believe that this person is sent by God to them.
Ah... so the entire premise is a fallacy of equivocation.

Where is the Scripture supporting your narrow definition of "sign"?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Ah... so the entire premise is a fallacy of equivocation.

Where is the Scripture supporting your narrow definition of "sign"?
My points 1-3 contain many scripture examples.

If you can show me other scriptures that does not link signs to "pointing people to believe that this person is sent by God to them", feel free to point them out. I will be keen to expand my knowledge base.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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My points 1-3 contain many scripture examples.
The verses don't come anywhere near supporting your assertion.

If you can show me other scriptures that does not link signs to "pointing people to believe that this person is sent by God to them", feel free to point them out.
Fallacy: burden of proof reversal. It's on you to support your assertion.

I will be keen to expand my knowledge base.
I'd recommend some more training in logic.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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The verses don't come anywhere near supporting your assertion.


Fallacy: burden of proof reversal. It's on you to support your assertion.


I'd recommend some more training in logic.
Its alright if you can't. We can agree to disagree here.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Its alright if you can't. We can agree to disagree here.
"Can't"? How do you possibly get "can't" out of what I said? I told you it was a burden of proof reversal! If you don't know what that is, go and look it up! As for agreeing to disagree, if you "can't" defend your position, then you need to concede it, not slither away behind a platitude.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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"Can't"? How do you possibly get "can't" out of what I said? I told you it was a burden of proof reversal! If you don't know what that is, go and look it up! As for agreeing to disagree, if you "can't" defend your position, then you need to concede it, not slither away behind a platitude.
I can explain my position to you, but I cannot understand it for you.

Despite you constantly making personal attacks throughout this discussion, I have been extending grace to you by agreeing with you in certain points you have made.

Its not my intention to convince you if you don't wish to be.
 
Aug 14, 2019
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There are significant transitions in the way Divine revelation is expressed and Divine power manifests. There is a change when Jesus died. Jesus began the public revelation it continued in a different way through the Apostles. The public revelation ended with them. These are eternal realities that have entered time and history. Temporal reality changes eternal doesn't. The divine powers continue but manifests relative to the temporal condition it is in. There are no eye witnesses chosen by God to reveal Him. That constitutes a change in the manifestation of the divine power. Less authority to wield divine power means it manifests with less of our direction.



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Jan 12, 2019
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There are significant transitions in the way Divine revelation is expressed and Divine power manifests. There is a change when Jesus died. Jesus began the public revelation it continued in a different way through them. The public revelation ended with them. These are eternal realities that have entered time and history. Temporal reality changes eternal doesn't. The divine powers continue but manifests relative to the temporal condition it is in. There are no eye witnesses chosen by God to reveal Him. That constitutes a change in the manifestation of the divine power. Less authority to wield divine power means it manifests with less of our direction.
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Good point, interestingly, the final verse in Mark stated

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

There are people who interpret this "word" as "the spoken word" rather than the written word.

They believe that once scripture is completed in written form, signs and wonders also fade away, hence they interpret "the perfect" in 1 Cor as the completed scriptures.