Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

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Aug 14, 2019
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I am saying, when John finish writing the book of Revelation, he stated that there will be no more prophecies after that
He was the last of the Apostles living and knew his death would end the public revelation. When he wrote about adding and subtracting prophecy he.refers to ' this book' the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus he writes later. Back to the death of martyrs.
 
Aug 14, 2019
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The Death of Polycarp

Eventually, when those wicked men saw that his body could not be consumed by the fire, they commanded an executioner to pierce him with a dagger. When he did this [a dove flew out and] [*this may well be a later interpolation or transcription error] such a great quantity of blood flowed that the fire was extinguished. The crowd were amazed at the difference between the unbelievers and the elect – of whom the great Polycarp was surely one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word he spoke either has been or shall be accomplished.
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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Yes, that was the point I was trying to address in my points 8 to 10.

In 1 Cor, all the 9 gifts were mentioned. That letter was written during the transitional period between Acts 7 and Acts 28, where signs and wonders were still given to Paul, as well as the Gentile churches, as a sign to Israel.

But by the time Paul wrote his prison epistles and pastoral letters after Acts 28, do you notice he no longer talk about tongues, in Ephesians 4 for example

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Dear friend didnt you just kinda sorta refute your own argument? Ephesians 4:11 is the verse you quoted. It mentions some PROPHETS, last time I checked, the cessationist crowd denies prophecies revealed thru men today?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Dear friend didnt you just kinda sorta refute your own argument? Ephesians 4:11 is the verse you quoted. It mentions some PROPHETS, last time I checked, the cessationist crowd denies prophecies revealed thru men today?
Well, there are also no apostles today anyway.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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I think you're misusing the terms because you're overlooking one clause of the definition of faith: things hoped for. We don't hope for Noah building an ark; that's historical fact recorded in Scripture, and we either accept it as fact or we don't. We hope for resurrection and eternal life with God.

Further, nowhere in Scripture does it say that the Jews need evidence; it says they ask for signs. Don't claim that the Bible says things it doesn't say in one place, and then in another place claim that the KJV has the perfect words of God; that's hypocrisy.
Actually, scripture states that the Jews require a sign.

1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Dear friend didnt you just kinda sorta refute your own argument? Ephesians 4:11 is the verse you quoted. It mentions some PROPHETS, last time I checked, the cessationist crowd denies prophecies revealed thru men today?
Ephesians 4:11 was written while there were actual apostles and prophets alive on earth, and the complete Bible had not been written. By the time all the apostle passed on the Bible was complete, but the apostles and prophets were gone. Therefore not a single "Apostolic Father" claimed to be an apostle or a prophet. We now have the prophets primarily in the OT and the apostles in the NT.
 

Blackpowderduelist

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Sep 2, 2020
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Babylon
Dear friend didnt you just kinda sorta refute your own argument? Ephesians 4:11 is the verse you quoted. It mentions some PROPHETS, last time I checked, the cessationist crowd denies prophecies revealed thru men today?
It would help if one of them prophesied something and it actually came to pass.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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So if you believe that Israel required a sign from God that someone was sent to them.

And if you believe that, currently, Israel the nation is an enemy to God when it comes to the gospel (Romans 11:28), so in God's eyes, Israel the nation has fallen (Romans 11:11)

It seems more than reasonable to conclude, from the above 2 premises, that God is not showing any signs to anyone now.

But yes, you are right, after the Body of Christ is raptured, and God restarts his dealings with Israel, signs and wonders will definitely be making a comeback then. (Matthew 24:24, Revelation 11:3-6)
Again, your reasoning is flawed.

Firstly, I don't hold that Israel "required" a sign from God that someone was sent to them. I believe they wanted signs, not that they needed signs. They had the prophecies, and didn't see the fulfillment of those prophecies even when He was standing before them.

Secondly, neither premise says anything at all about the gentiles, so you are using a fallacious argument from silence. That fallacy is at the core of your entire thesis in this thread.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Actually, scripture states that the Jews require a sign.

1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
The NASB says, "Jews ask for signs", not that they require them. It seems to me that you are reading the word "require" to mean "need", whereas I read it to mean "want".
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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The NASB says, "Jews ask for signs", not that they require them. It seems to me that you are reading the word "require" to mean "need", whereas I read it to mean "want".
The Jews have always required a sign to believe, all the way back to their conception. Btw, I'll stick with the KJV. Anyway, why ask for a sign? Why not simply believe God at His word?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Ephesians 4:11 was written while there were actual apostles and prophets alive on earth, and the complete Bible had not been written. By the time all the apostle passed on the Bible was complete, but the apostles and prophets were gone. Therefore not a single "Apostolic Father" claimed to be an apostle or a prophet. We now have the prophets primarily in the OT and the apostles in the NT.
Your argument with regard to prophets is flawed. It is unreasonable to claim that prophecies ended with the close of the canon on the basis of the prophecies recorded in the canon. A book cannot possibly contain narrative records of events that occurred after it was written.

Scripture itself tells us that not all prophecies are recorded in Scripture. Agabus was identified as a prophet before any of his prophecies were recorded, and Philip's daughters prophesied, and none of their prophecies were recorded.

Nobody need claim to be a prophet to actually be one. Most of the biblical prophets did not make such claims. Amos actually declared that he was not a prophet, yet God told him to prophesy.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Again, your reasoning is flawed.

Firstly, I don't hold that Israel "required" a sign from God that someone was sent to them. I believe they wanted signs, not that they needed signs. They had the prophecies, and didn't see the fulfillment of those prophecies even when He was standing before them.

Secondly, neither premise says anything at all about the gentiles, so you are using a fallacious argument from silence. That fallacy is at the core of your entire thesis in this thread.
I see that you already rejected the kjv translation of that verse provided by john146, alright then.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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The Jews have always required a sign to believe, all the way back to their conception. Btw, I'll stick with the KJV. Anyway, why ask for a sign? Why not simply believe God at His word?
Yes, I know that you're stuck with the KJV; my condolences. However, your insistence on sticking with the KJV only and not considering alternate meanings of words used in the KJV by comparing with other translations limits your understanding of Scripture.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I see that you already rejected the kjv translation of that verse provided by john146, alright then.
No, I rejected John146's interpretation of the KJV of that verse.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Willing to believe anything except the word of God. Heaping to themselves teachers having itching ears.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Since you have such a negative, closed-minded attitude about this subject, I suggest you stay out of the discussion. You add nothing to it but hostility and stupidity.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Dodge. A pathetic one at that.
Nehemiah6 said what was on my mind already.

Btw, why do you keep making personal attacks? Is it very difficult for you to state your views without them?