Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

[presidente]

The context for my post was not relevant. All I did at the end was to tack on a Scriptural warning, it was not being used as a proof text for my above argument. There is nothing wrong with personal revelation as one receives it from the study of Scripture. This was not my argument. My argument was solely against those who believe in a personal revelation APART from Scripture. Ie.. by a dream or a small voice, etc,,,,

You might want to read the first sentence of my original post again.

Where does the Bible teach us to have this fear of personal revelation? We need revelation to know the Father:
Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Mormon revelation does not line up with what has been revealed. Genuine revelation is in line with what the Bible teaches. From reading I Corinthians 14, we can surmise that there must have been numerous revelations about the secrets of men's hearts in the first century. Agabus signified that there would be a famine. These types of things are not inherently at odds with scripture.

The thing is, the Bible does not teach that God speaks exclusively through scripture, and that type of thinking is not really in line with what the New Testament actually teaches. Did you claim to have received a direct, personal, extrabiblical revelation from God that God only speaks outside of scripture that overturns the teaching of scripture on spiritual gifts?

 

[presidente]

I
Okay, I will admit the use of the "sarcasm" was a poor choice on my part

It was, but sorry if I was harsh.

but since you are being technical in the rest of your argument, let me be equally technical in a way that matters.

Let's examine the sentence construction and dig down into the grammar for a few minutes.

! Cor. 13:1, Starts out with the Greek word ἐάν, a conditional particle. Usually translated in the English with the word "IF". (In some translations, they chose the word "though"). This first verse, led by the conditional particle ἐάν sets up a series of verses, 1-3, each starting with the same conditional particle as in verse 1. This conditional particle sets an "uncertain" mood for the rest of the sentence.

Therefore, we have three third class conditional sentences in a row. The third class condition, sets these statements as far from the mood of possibility as one can in the Greek grammar. (Unless the writer uses a combination such as οὗ οὐκ, a double negative, which means: "by no means"). The writer expects the reader to see the things mentioned in an implausible way. That is, the things mentioned are not to be considered probable by the one writing and are to be understood as exaggerations for the purpose of the argument, such as we have in these three verses.

From my reading, this does not appear to be accurate. Are these third class conditionals outside of the realm of possiblity?

Romans 7:2
Romans 7:2, KJV: "For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband."

No woman's husband could ever possibly die?

Hebrews 3:14
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Is it impossible that 'we' should hold fast the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end? Is the author of Hebrews indicating that he is convinced that he and his readers would be damned?

Here is a quote from Grace Theology Journal that disagrees with you. <http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/New_Testament_Greek/Text/Boyer-ThirdCond-GTJ.htm>

Third class conditional sentences, a very frequent type of conditional sentence, are identified and characterized by their use of the subjunctive mood in the protasis. The subjunctive indicates potentiality, contingency, or simple futurity. It is the condition which points to a future eventuality. The common notion that it indicates a degree of probability is examined by inductive study of all the NT examples and is concluded to be totally incorrect. Also, the often-made distinction between present general and future particular conditions within this third class is shown to be neither helpful nor indicated by NT Greek texts. All third class conditions are essentially future contingencies.

I am not a Greek scholar, but I believe within a matter of posts, I have stumbled upon yet another oft-repeated 'Greek myth', an overgeneralization about the Greek language that does not hold true on closer examination.

One would be wise not to hang any doctrine or concepts on any third class conditional sentence.

Faith and mountains are real things. It is possible to give all to the poor or to give one's body to be burned. So we should be open to the possibility that someone might speak with tongues of angels. What we cannot definitively say is that it is impossible to speak in the tongues of angels because of the third class conditional.

 

[shittim]

We won't see it if we rely on our own understanding, when we come to the Father as He requires he will respond through Holy Spirit, with all truth.
God keeps His promises, any problems coming into right relationship is down here, never on His end.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Really..........

Matthew 24:37 says that when considering the return of Christ the days then will be as they were 6000 years ago.

"For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. "

Why does no one ever read the next verse? It's a complete statement & Jesus clarifies what he means.
People will be living normal lives unconcerned with the coming judgement of God.

"38 For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,
until the day Noah entered the ark.

39 And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away."

 

[shittim]

Yes Miss Lucy, I have heard that as
"cherry picking" a verse, a better way would be to read about 7 verses before and after for the context and clarification. Even more telling is the mistake of thinking our opinion matters.
The true believer is hidden in Christ, His lens is how we are to look at the world and read and understand His Word that He has left for us learn His ways.
From the beginning in Genesis we were to experience God, to be in communication to the point our lives become prayer, become a constant fellowship with Him,
were that so this thread would not exist.
Those who reject His fellowship are the ones who erroneously believe He is not the same, yesterday, today and forever. They will not experience His gifts that He promised His own.
"Concrete thinking".
best wishes

 

[notuptome]

Where does the Bible teach us to have this fear of personal revelation? We need revelation to know the Father:
Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Mormon revelation does not line up with what has been revealed. Genuine revelation is in line with what the Bible teaches. From reading I Corinthians 14, we can surmise that there must have been numerous revelations about the secrets of men's hearts in the first century. Agabus signified that there would be a famine. These types of things are not inherently at odds with scripture.

The thing is, the Bible does not teach that God speaks exclusively through scripture, and that type of thinking is not really in line with what the New Testament actually teaches. Did you claim to have received a direct, personal, extrabiblical revelation from God that God only speaks outside of scripture that overturns the teaching of scripture on spiritual gifts?

Genuine revelation is the word of God. The Holy Spirit speaks that which He has heard from the Father. John 16:13-18 Apostolic tongues ended in the first century. Unfortunately the heresy of the Montanists lives on in the Pentecostals and charismatics. History demonstrates that these three specific gifts ended in the first century.

Most agree that tongues are not an indicator of salvation in Jesus Christ. Most are forced to admit that there are no foreign language speakers in their assemblies.

There are no new apostles and no new prophets given to the church by God. 1 Cor 14:23 states that tongues are not for the believers but for the unbelievers. In context it is to Jewish unbelievers not Gentiles. Prophecy is for those who believe and that prophecy must come from the prophecy already given.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Scribe]

Genuine revelation is the word of God. The Holy Spirit speaks that which He has heard from the Father. John 16:13-18 Apostolic tongues ended in the first century. Unfortunately the heresy of the Montanists lives on in the Pentecostals and charismatics. History demonstrates that these three specific gifts ended in the first century.

Most agree that tongues are not an indicator of salvation in Jesus Christ. Most are forced to admit that there are no foreign language speakers in their assemblies.

There are no new apostles and no new prophets given to the church by God. 1 Cor 14:23 states that tongues are not for the believers but for the unbelievers. In context it is to Jewish unbelievers not Gentiles. Prophecy is for those who believe and that prophecy must come from the prophecy already given.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So does anyone prophesy in your church?

 

[notuptome]

So does anyone prophesy in your church?

Not in the charismatic Pentecostal sense. Biblical expositional preaching is the norm.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

We won't see it if we rely on our own understanding, when we come to the Father as He requires he will respond through Holy Spirit, with all truth.
God keeps His promises, any problems coming into right relationship is down here, never on His end.

Are you really saved? No one is saved their whole life. We are all born sinners in need of redemption. Your profile is less than reassuring.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

The word of God is genuine revelation is the word of God.

Fixed it for you.

prophecy must come from the prophecy already given.

Tell that to Isaiah, Amos, and Agabus. Tell it to Philip's daughters. Tell it to the Corinthians. Tell it to Jesus.

 

[shittim]

Good work for His kingdom brother Dino

 

[Major]

Why does no one ever read the next verse? It's a complete statement & Jesus clarifies what he means.
People will be living normal lives unconcerned with the coming judgement of God.

"38 For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,
until the day Noah entered the ark.

39 And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away."

The point is that the days of Noah were characterized by Gross Immorality-"
-every thought and imagination of mans heart was only evil continually" (Gen 6:5)

It has nothing to do with eating and drinking and marrying but everything to do with the rejection of God.

The people then so totally rejected God that out of the earth's population only EIGHT people were saved.

People today live like there is NO God, no boundries and no judgment.

 

[Major]

Are you really saved? No one is saved their whole life. We are all born sinners in need of redemption. Your profile is less than reassuring.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Correct. Romans 3:23......
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

We ALL have and we ALL still do.

 

[Major]

Fixed it for you.


Tell that to Isaiah, Amos, and Agabus. Tell it to Philip's daughters. Tell it to the Corinthians. Tell it to Jesus.

Jesus Christ TOLD it to them Himself!

The Bible is the complete Word of God.

The Holy Bible is the complete written Word of God in the sense that it contains everything that God wants us to know about Him but not necessarily everything that He is or every detail about Him. Everything that God wants us to know about Him can be found in the 66 books of the Holy Bible. ( 2 Timothy 3:16-17)

 

[Major]

So does anyone prophesy in your church?

In the New Test Greek..........to "Prophesy" means literally to TEACH, Tell Forth! It does not mean to tell the future.

 

[Major]

Thank you for your kind words. As far as those who read Hebrew and Greek are concerned, why don't you ask some of them and see. I challenge you to do so...someone who really understands the language, and show my examples.

What do you do with the fact that your argument about Greek antecedents does not work with the examples I have shown you? Can you follow what I wrote? Have you taken the time to study it and look up the references in an interlinear? There are interlinear tools online.

I do not agree with you brother. What I gave to you was the Greek grammar. If you choose to reject accepted Greek interlinears and and Grammatical expostitions...OK with me. That does not change them at all.

What I have posted is what comes from much time and study on a subject I can see that you are dug in on.

That is fine with me. As I said.......I do not wish to continue with you on this so you have a great day and stay safe and we will live in disagreement but still working for the cause of Christ in our separate ways.

 

[Major]

Well said, by the time people are interested enough to post what they believe in such discussion forums, which they probably have formed after years of reflection, they are not going to change their minds, at least not so quickly, the moment they received new information that makes their previously held position in suspect.

What's more, all of us are strangers here so it is naturally difficult for us to accept contradictory views, we would much prefer to seek people who share similar views as us, this is known as "confirmation bias".

So you are doing well, I feel all of us should just treat all with respect and kindness and not get too antagonistic when we share our different interpretations of scripture and have people respond to them aggressively. Even if no one seems to appreciate, I believe the Lord will remember all these, and in the bema seat of Christ in 1 Cor 3:10-15, we will be rewarded.

Good response brother!!!!

I agree 100% with your comment.

You see......A Greek professor about 50 years ago told me something that has stook with me all these years and it is very much like what you just said.........
"We like what we know, even if we are shown that it is incorrect, we just aint gonna change it cause it takes too much effort to do so".

 

[Major]

Having refuted your assertion on Mark 16 twice, I disagree that your beliefs are soundly biblical. It has nothing to do with personal likes or dislikes.


"Ignorant" might be used by some people as an insult; I use it as a statement of observation. If you consciously ignore something, but try to make truth claims related to it, you are being ignorant. Do you have a synonym you would prefer?

However.....you have disproved nothing Biblically now have you.

You gave your opinion and what you thought but you have not Biblically disproved one single thing I have said.

"Saying" something is untrue is nothing more than an opinion.

What I have done is to state the EXACT words found in Mark and Matthew concerning the ELEVEN and shown "grammatically" why you and me are not able to perform the Sign Gifts as they were only given to the ELEVEN exactly and literally what the Scriptures.

As for using the word "Ignorant" when talking to another Christian, whatever your excuse and no matter what you intended, please know that it is not something I would say to you or anyone else as in my opinion it lowers what I would expect from another Christian believer.

Ephesians 4:29:
“Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.”

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

The point is that the days of Noah were characterized by Gross Immorality-"
-every thought and imagination of mans heart was only evil continually" (Gen 6:5)

It has nothing to do with eating and drinking and marrying but everything to do with the rejection of God.

The people then so totally rejected God that out of the earth's population only EIGHT people were saved.

People today live like there is NO God, no boundries and no judgment.

It has to do with everything Jesus said. Not only some of it. It's not a case of either/or.

There will be people on the earth, wicked & ignoring him but going through a normal life cycle when he returns.
Just as people disregarded God and his coming judgement in Noah's day.
Simple.

 

[shittim]

And we are seeing it here in this thread as well, very astute observation Lucy.
It gets to be a waste of the time he has given us to "discuss" with those who choose not to go to the giver of life who promises and requires us to go to Him in relationship for truth.
Thank you and bless you for being a part of His remnant of true believers.
Best wishes