Why I Believe Judas Iscariot is Saved Pt 1

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Dec 27, 2013
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#61
Judas was called as an example as Jesus said this

John 6:[70] Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
[71] He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Amen so there is always tares among wheat [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]

Matthew 13:
[/FONT][24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
[26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
[27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
[28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
[29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Jude 1:[4] For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen Judas was called to fulfill the scriptures

Acts 1:[16] Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
[17] For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
[18] Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
[19] And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
[20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Zech 11:[12] And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.[13] And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Matthew 27:
[3] Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, [9] Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
 
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TashMeyer76

Guest
#62
I've always wondered about Judas, his purpose and his end. Lets just say I felt a mixture of emotions from anger, pity, to sympathy all resulting in a hope that towards his end, he did repent (spill his guts) and through the Crucifixion, and Jesus' descend into Hell, to bring the message to those who fell short of the salvation of the Cross, the Grace of God was sufficient for Judas. Much like the Thief on the cross how asked Jesus to remember him.

My interest in Judas and his Salvation stems from a debate on Predestination, and each one's calling in proportion to the bigger picture. Based on scripture Judas was lost from his conception - Matt 26:24-25 ".. it had had been good for that man if he had not been born" Also with reference to the Acts 1:24-25

24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

What is the "his own place" referred to in Acts 1:24-25


and


Why did Jesus say in John 6:71-71 that one of the twelve was a devil?


It is still something that I question, because based on Judas' life, he was born solely for this purpose - although I would hope that he would have had a chance to "reconcile" with God after he returned the 30 pieces of silver, I'm afraid he may be lost still. Which in turn leads me to ask the question, how many others, perhaps the likes of Hitler, Mugabe etc. Are they in those places for one purpose and one purpose alone - in the end to fall short of Grace....
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#63
I've always wondered about Judas, his purpose and his end. Lets just say I felt a mixture of emotions from anger, pity, to sympathy all resulting in a hope that towards his end, he did repent (spill his guts) and through the Crucifixion, and Jesus' descend into Hell, to bring the message to those who fell short of the salvation of the Cross, the Grace of God was sufficient for Judas. Much like the Thief on the cross how asked Jesus to remember him.

My interest in Judas and his Salvation stems from a debate on Predestination, and each one's calling in proportion to the bigger picture. Based on scripture Judas was lost from his conception - Matt 26:24-25 ".. it had had been good for that man if he had not been born" Also with reference to the Acts 1:24-25

24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

What is the "his own place" referred to in Acts 1:24-25


and


Why did Jesus say in John 6:71-71 that one of the twelve was a devil?


It is still something that I question, because based on Judas' life, he was born solely for this purpose - although I would hope that he would have had a chance to "reconcile" with God after he returned the 30 pieces of silver, I'm afraid he may be lost still. Which in turn leads me to ask the question, how many others, perhaps the likes of Hitler, Mugabe etc. Are they in those places for one purpose and one purpose alone - in the end to fall short of Grace....
I view his destiny from this perspective...

Not that he was born to this destiny, but rather, God being able to see the future knew in advance what Judas would do and the choices that he would make which allowed God to inspire what was written about Judas and his destiny!

Just a thought or two...:)
 

jandian

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2011
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#64
The question and argumentation was challenging, agreed. But scripture is yet quiet clear on the matter. Why one should want to put in for example free-willism there is not contextual.
I actually didn't say which side I agreed with, so why did you conclude that it supports free will.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#65
No scripture or word mentioning Christianity, the bible and etc. Free will is related to one's ability to make his or her own choice. It is your 'free will' to choose God or Satan.
Makes no sense. The Word of God says that natural man is dead in sins and trespasses (Eph.2:1-3). The dead cannot do anything unless being raised up to life again first. Your reasoning does not come from Scripture, but from philosophy.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#66
I actually didn't say which side I agreed with, so why did you conclude that it supports free will.
I interpreted your reply as for free-will. Also taken your posts of old, where you have spoken out against monergism. You mean you don't believe in free will? Happy to hear that if so.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#67
As a 'non-believer' you are entitled to your opinions. As a devout Christian I just shake my head and laugh at you because your intentions are obvious. Just another troll making the rounds who really should take a course in psychology.
LOL. A "devout" believer in your own philosophy maybe. You resort to personal attacks and then speak about trolling! Huge hypocrisy. Laughable indeed. You would do better shake your head and laugh at your own ignorance and shameless pride instead. Or weep rather.
 
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GentleServant

Guest
#68
The Bible does not use the term "free will" and there is no such concept to be found anywhere in same. Own will and free will are worlds apart. Not to be confused. Man has no free will in spiritual matters.

The mistake is that you think there is a "free will" in matters where there are none. You do not think so because of scripture reading, but because of philosophical concepts that you picked up elsewhere.
Hi,

If you don't mind me asking my friend,

1. What is in free-will that you cannot accept it to be biblically true?
2. What is your understanding of free will?
3. Do you believe that God has raised you from dead of sins and trespasses (Eph 2:1-3)?


Clarification my friend, the mistakes that i am referring is not the scripture that i qoute or the point i made but it is for spelling and grammar. Sorry if you got confused by that.
 
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GentleServant

Guest
#69
Don't Attack someone personally guys and don't use foul words or harsh statement to someone. After all this discussion we have Let us not forget that Jesus Christ give us new commandment that we should "Love one another" and "by this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:34-45). Just a reminder from the Bible.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
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#70
1. What is in free-will that you cannot accept it to be biblically true?
Because the term "free will" in the tradition of arminians and synergists is unbiblical. We have no "free will" in spiritual matters. Natural, carnal and unregenerate man has no "free will" to please God. God does not expect anything spiritual good to come from natural evil man. He is not "waiting" for him to "decide for Jesus", because he is unable to that by his very depraved nature. Which follows that what happens in a natural man who is become born again and pleases God is the work of God alone. Without the "preparation" or "co-operation" with the sinner.

2. What is your understanding of free will?
When its used by modern day christians it is mostly a philosophical idea about how things are to fit together as to avert notions that God would be "unfair" or "forcing Himself upon us" if not using that expression. Men has a limited own will, but no free will in spiritual matters.

3. Do you believe that God has raised you from dead of sins and trespasses (Eph 2:1-3)?
Absolulety. And that work is the work of God alone, conditioned on the work of Jesus Christ and His imputed righteousness. Not conditioned on anything in me or anything I have done, do, will or can do.
 
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GentleServant

Guest
#71
Because the term "free will" in the tradition of arminians and synergists is unbiblical. We have no "free will" in spiritual matters. Natural, carnal and unregenerate man has no "free will" to please God. God does not expect anything spiritual good to come from natural evil man. He is not "waiting" for him to "decide for Jesus", because he is unable to that by his very depraved nature. Which follows that what happens in a natural man who is become born again and pleases God is the work of God alone. Without the "preparation" or "co-operation" with the sinner.

When its used by modern day christians it is mostly a philosophical idea about how things are to fit together as to avert notions that God would be "unfair" or "forcing Himself upon us" if not using that expression. Men has a limited own will, but no free will in spiritual matters.

Absolulety. And that work is the work of God alone, conditioned on the work of Jesus Christ and His imputed righteousness. Not conditioned on anything in me or anything I have done, do, will or can do.
Thank you for answering the questions. Now i understand where you are coming from.

I agree in your point that human nature is deprave (people that comes after Adam). Let's go back to God's design for human when He made Adam. Genesis 1:26, God said "Let Us made man in Our own image". at this point of time, there is no sin mention but rather all that God made "is good". God created a perfect man here.

Temptation comes in the form of serpent and despite of God's command to Adam that he should not eat the fruit of tree of knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2) Adam CHOOSE to give in to the temptation and ate the fruit.

A perfect creation of God (Adam) choose (is this not a free-will?) to disobey God. The rest is history. Sin of DISOBEDIENCE enters Humanity and that sin that Adam commits in the garden of Eden makes us all depraved, sinful in nature and DEAD! This is the very reason why we need Jesus Christ to redeem us, to free us, right?

But before we can recieved Jesus in our life the scripture clearly says that we need to REPENT. Of course, we can only attain repentance through the mercy and grace of God but this is a choice or decision (is this not a free-will?)we have to made. To turn away from our old sinful lifestyle and commit ourselves to God! and by the power of Christ in us we will overcome sin (raised from the dead).

I submit to you my friend in saying that we are design and created by God to bear His image (I hope we both agree that God is not evil in nature, right?). It is SIN that made us evil in nature but we as HUMAN are not evil. I hope i made my point clear. Free-will in the Bible is in the context of choosing to give up on our old sinful self and start (born again) to commit ourselves to God.

I partially agree on your answer on number 2 question. Indeed there are some christian who misinterpret the biblical context of free will but not all.

I totally agree on your answer on question on number 3. Only God alone can raise us from the dead through Jesus Christ.

God Bless :)
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
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#72
Thank you for answering the questions. Now i understand where you are coming from.

I agree in your point that human nature is deprave (people that comes after Adam). Let's go back to God's design for human when He made Adam. Genesis 1:26, God said "Let Us made man in Our own image". at this point of time, there is no sin mention but rather all that God made "is good". God created a perfect man here.

Temptation comes in the form of serpent and despite of God's command to Adam that he should not eat the fruit of tree of knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2) Adam CHOOSE to give in to the temptation and ate the fruit.
You cannot compare the "perfect man" Adam to the "people who comes after Adam". Pre-fall and post-fall situation. But we shall see what you really believe about man's depravity post-fall.

A perfect creation of God (Adam) choose (is this not a free-will?) to disobey God. The rest is history. Sin of DISOBEDIENCE enters Humanity and that sin that Adam commits in the garden of Eden makes us all depraved, sinful in nature and DEAD! This is the very reason why we need Jesus Christ to redeem us, to free us, right?
Yes it makes man dead, and this death means total inability of sinful man to will, want, seek etc anything of God. Dead in sins means just that, not just sick, but dead. Meaning nothing godly will come from natural man before he is regenerated. So his depravity is total, affecting ability and will. It is not partly depravity and some "small spark of divine" left somewhere "deep inside"...it is a total depravity.

But before we can recieved Jesus in our life the scripture clearly says that we need to REPENT. Of course, we can only attain repentance through the mercy and grace of God but this is a choice or decision (is this not a free-will?)we have to made. To turn away from our old sinful lifestyle and commit ourselves to God! and by the power of Christ in us we will overcome sin (raised from the dead).
Absolutely not! How can you say you believe man is depraved and dead in sins and then say that God expect this man to use some sort of ability to repent? Total contradiction. Natural man cannot repent (or work up a repentance that pleases God) before God has regenerated him. He is totally depraved, so how can God expect from him a godly repentance and true turning from sin when God says he is dead in trespasses and sins? How can a dead man will or do anything? He cannot! Let alone "commit" to God and overcome sin and as a result God will reward him a new birth? To believe such is pure ignorance about the nature of fallen man. God is not expecting the old man to do or perform anything good because old man is unable to do so. Repentance is a gift that God grants His people (Acts 5:31). Natural man is unable to truly repent and his "commitment" is nothing but dead religion. A false way. That's why Jesus said that we must be born again. Something that God does and that we have no control over.

I submit to you my friend in saying that we are design and created by God to bear His image (I hope we both agree that God is not evil in nature, right?). It is SIN that made us evil in nature but we as HUMAN are not evil. I hope i made my point clear. Free-will in the Bible is in the context of choosing to give up on our old sinful self and start (born again) to commit ourselves to God.
You must understand that scripture never gives the characteristics of the new man to the old. All and everywhere in scripture when the commands are given it is always assumed and implied that it is the new man who can walk in them. The old man cannot. God always address His covenant people in this regard, not the "world".

I partially agree on your answer on number 2 question. Indeed there are some christian who misinterpret the biblical context of free will but not all.
All who hold to various arminian or other synergist positions misinterpret the biblical context of man's will.

I totally agree on your answer on question on number 3. Only God alone can raise us from the dead through Jesus Christ. God Bless :)
I cannot see how you can say that. Since you do not, in effect, hold to total depravity, we do not agree on this. We are worlds apart in our beliefs about this.

Ingat! :)
 
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GentleServant

Guest
#73
You cannot compare the "perfect man" Adam to the "people who comes after Adam". Pre-fall and post-fall situation. But we shall see what you really believe about man's depravity post-fall.

Yes it makes man dead, and this death means total inability of sinful man to will, want, seek etc anything of God. Dead in sins means just that, not just sick, but dead. Meaning nothing godly will come from natural man before he is regenerated. So his depravity is total, affecting ability and will. It is not partly depravity and some "small spark of divine" left somewhere "deep inside"...it is a total depravity.

Absolutely not! How can you say you believe man is depraved and dead in sins and then say that God expect this man to use some sort of ability to repent? Total contradiction. Natural man cannot repent (or work up a repentance that pleases God) before God has regenerated him. He is totally depraved, so how can God expect from him a godly repentance and true turning from sin when God says he is dead in trespasses and sins? How can a dead man will or do anything? He cannot! Let alone "commit" to God and overcome sin and as a result God will reward him a new birth? To believe such is pure ignorance about the nature of fallen man. God is not expecting the old man to do or perform anything good because old man is unable to do so. Repentance is a gift that God grants His people (Acts 5:31). Natural man is unable to truly repent and his "commitment" is nothing but dead religion. A false way. That's why Jesus said that we must be born again. Something that God does and that we have no control over.

You must understand that scripture never gives the characteristics of the new man to the old. All and everywhere in scripture when the commands are given it is always assumed and implied that it is the new man who can walk in them. The old man cannot. God always address His covenant people in this regard, not the "world".

All who hold to various arminian or other synergist positions misinterpret the biblical context of man's will.

I cannot see how you can say that. Since you do not, in effect, hold to total depravity, we do not agree on this. We are worlds apart in our beliefs about this.

Ingat! :)
I don't know for what reason you missed my phrase "Of course we can only attain repentance through the mercy and grace of God".

What i am saying is - It is not the dead man that made himself to repent but God made the dead man to repent. I myself is once TOTALLY DEAD and by the grace of God alone i came to repentance. I hope its clear to you

I Didn't mention anything partial deprivation. I agree that without Christ we are enslaved by sin. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ. So my CLEAR and FINAL POINT is "IT IS GOD who called me to repent and through that calling, I made my own free will to commit myself to God and follow Jesus Christ and by the grace of God, He sustains me"

Please don't removed the concept that we are responsible of our response to God. As in the proverbs said that God has planned everything up to the last age but God called His people to be with and participate with Him. Biblical Free-will comes in the concept of what is your response to God's calling, obey or not? Not in the concept that we have our own will to save ourselves. Let us follow the Bible not our own view.


Haha. Ingat din :)
 
Dec 27, 2013
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#74
Judas Iscariot did not get saved unlike Peter who repented and after the day of Pentecost he became the preacher Jesus told us about.

Matthew 16:17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
[18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
[19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jesus had to go tot the cross alone because his disciples did not believe a word he said to them.

Mark 14
:[27] And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
[28] But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.
[29] But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.
[30] And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.
[31] But he spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise. Likewise also said they all.

By this time the devil had entered into Judas Iscariot

John 13:1] Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
[2] And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

Amen once the devil enters into your heart I do not see any saving power after having partake in such a ministry

Matthew 12:[43] When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
[44] Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
[45] Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Judas committed suicide and not one verse or scripture said that he was going to meet Jesus in the air when he returns.

Matthew 27:3] Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
[4] Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
[5] And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

When you commit suicide there is not one scripture that says you can make heaven

Ezekiel 18:[4] Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

When the devil entered into Judas it was game over because it does not say in the bible that he was still loved of God the Father of Jesus after the devil entered into him.

1st Cor 3:[16] Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
[17] If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.




 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
282
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#75
I don't know for what reason you missed my phrase "Of course we can only attain repentance through the mercy and grace of God".
I did not miss that, but right after that you wrote: "but this is a choice or decision (is this not a free-will?)we have to made" meaning you make man's "choice or decision" conditional for this to come to pass. Par for the course of classical arminianism you deny total depravity and make salvation conditioned on something in the sinner or the work of the sinner. The Bible does not teach this. You are confusing conditions with fruit, i e faith, belief, repentance, a change of way of life are all the fruit of God's doing and are by no means requirements or conditions of justification and sanctification. So we are in total disagreement here.

What i am saying is - It is not the dead man that made himself to repent but God made the dead man to repent. I myself is once TOTALLY DEAD and by the grace of God alone i came to repentance. I hope its clear to you.
I will only accept that as clear if you believe and teach that God worked a resurrection wonder in that old man and after that old man was regenerate these things followed. Because old man is never able to produce anything that pleases God that's why God first must regenerate him.

I Didn't mention anything partial deprivation. I agree that without Christ we are enslaved by sin. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ. So my CLEAR and FINAL POINT is "IT IS GOD who called me to repent and through that calling, I made my own free will to commit myself to God and follow Jesus Christ and by the grace of God, He sustains me"
As an old natural man you don't have a "free will" to commit yourself "to God and follow Jesus Christ". So if this has happened you were already a new man. The old man is dead. He cannot do that.

Please don't removed the concept that we are responsible of our response to God. As in the proverbs said that God has planned everything up to the last age but God called His people to be with and participate with Him. Biblical Free-will comes in the concept of what is your response to God's calling, obey or not? Not in the concept that we have our own will to save ourselves. Let us follow the Bible not our own view.
No sinner has any responsibility to help save themselves. They cannot add or attribute anything to their salvation, whereas it is not their work. Out of gratitude they desire to please God, not striving to establish their own righteousness but doing so because they have submitted to the righteousness of God, which is Christ Jesus.

Their positive response to God's calling comes once they are the children of God, not and never before that. Before that all their dead religion is nothing but filthy rags and an abomination before God. Obedience is a fruit of salvation, not and never any requirement for same.

All that pertains to salvation is solely conditioned on the atoning blood of Jesus Christ and His imputed righteousness. Not in any wise conditioned on or in the sinner! Those who are ignorant about this are still going about to establish their own righteousness and are subsequently still lost! That is how serious the concept of justification is in the light of Scripture.
 
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BradC

Guest
#76
It is quite a thing when a man comes to a place of determination that depraved sinners have no ability or volition to respond to the gospel and believe. These same depraved sinners have volition for everything else, but to believe and agree by faith with the message of the gospel they seem to lack this ability. Without volition it would be impossible to believe or respond to God in any way. A man is in darkness and God comes to him in the light, the man either can respond to the light or reject it. God brought the light to him to give him opportunity to have the light and remove the darkness from him. God will not violate his volition but will try to persuade him through grace and conviction through the Holy Spirit. Many have heard the gospel and know what they must do to be saved but refuse to do it because of pride in the heart. The seed was planted but Satan snatched it away lest or before they could be saved. It will be revealed in eternity before the throne of God the many measures of God's goodness that filled all the earth and was directed toward man to lead him to repentance but many would not.

Prov 1:22-33
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.
 
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BradC

Guest
#77
When the old man is referred to as having no ability to repent then it must be the new man that repents. Is that right? That is the reasoning. If only the new man can repent because the old man is dead and depraved having no ability, then what exactly does the new man have to repent of? Does the new man sin that is born of an incorruptible seed? Does the new man repent of the old man and how is that if the old man is dead? How can you repent of something that is dead? Don't we reckon it dead because of the cross? If a person sins it must be the old man or the sin that dwells in him. The old man sins because it is the body of our fleshly members where sin resides and God crucified it but never eradicated it until we put on our new bodies of incorruption. When the old man sins who is the one that confesses the sin, the new man or the old man? The old man is quite capable in responding to the cross and can do it in only one way and that is through death. Paul said that when he sinned or did those things that he should not do that it was not him but sin that dwelt in him and even when he would do good evil was present with him. Who will deliver him from this body of sin and death?

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ liveth in me and the life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of God who died and gave Himself for me. Paul was not a Christian on the road to Damascus but he responded to the the voice he heard though blinded by the light. He was living in the old man religiously as a Pharisee persecuting Christians but he heard and responded in his volition to the voice of God. The twelve disciples that Jesus picked all were living in the old man and were constantly asked who they believed Him to be. It took three years of persuasion for some of them to be convinced that He was the Son of God and when they came to that place Christ breathed the Holy Spirit upon them. They had received much revelation but it took much investment for them to be converted. remember they all forsook Him at the cross and that was the old man responding.
 

jandian

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2011
772
11
18
#78
I interpreted your reply as for free-will. Also taken your posts of old, where you have spoken out against monergism. You mean you don't believe in free will? Happy to hear that if so.
Oh. Well as it turns out you are right. I believe whosoever will may come. Christ seeks to draw everyone, but not everyone comes.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
282
83
#79
Oh. Well as it turns out you are right. I believe whosoever will may come. Christ seeks to draw everyone, but not everyone comes.
And you also believe that you can lose your salvation. Right? We are far from each others positions, dear.
 
G

GentleServant

Guest
#80
No sinner has any responsibility to help save themselves. They cannot add or attribute anything to their salvation, whereas it is not their work. Out of gratitude they desire to please God, not striving to establish their own righteousness but doing so because they have submitted to the righteousness of God, which is Christ Jesus.

Their positive response to God's calling comes once they are the children of God, not and never before that. Before that all their dead religion is nothing but filthy rags and an abomination before God. Obedience is a fruit of salvation, not and never any requirement for same.

All that pertains to salvation is solely conditioned on the atoning blood of Jesus Christ and His imputed righteousness. Not in any wise conditioned on or in the sinner! Those who are ignorant about this are still going about to establish their own righteousness and are subsequently still lost! That is how serious the concept of justification is in the light of Scripture.[/QUOTE]

Haha. My friend...your putting your words to my mouth. I NEVER SAID WE CAN HELP TO SAVE OURSELVES. I NEVER SAID THAT SINNERS CAN ATTRIBUTE TO THEIR SALVATION. I NEVER SAID THAT and I DONT PREACH THAT. Its your words putting to my mouth and its not good. Imposing your ideas and presenting as if other people said that. Ephesians 2:8-10, clearly says that salvation is by grace.....BY GRACE...and NOT BY WORKS!

FORGIVENESS comes after repentance (Luke 24:47) Believing comes after repentance (Mark 1:!5) conversion comes after repentance (Acts 3:19). REPENTANCE IS A GIFT FROM GOD NOT FROM MEN- 2 Timothy 2:25 (CLEAR?)

Repent > Believe > Forgiven then Converted. FREE WILL COMES AFTER SALVATION (CLEAR?) Your response to God's calling is your part. God will not beg for you to do it. Its your will to participate in God's work, to submit to Him and make His will your will. all of that can be done after your decision to follow God. FREE WILL COMES AFTER SALVATION.

We should not twist the scripture to support our opinion but rather take our opinion from the truths of the scripture. let is not manipulate other people's words and twist it that will make our opinion to be a superior one.

My final question to you:

1. What are the decisions that you made in your life now that God has raised you from the dead?