Why I Believe Judas Iscariot is Saved Pt 1

[tribesman]

You are just flat out wrong about the volition of man and you have always been wrong about it. Our volition is the most precious commodity of the human soul that God has given to man despite the fall. Our volition is free to be exercised toward or in the light of God or toward the darkness that is in the world because of evil and sin. God's plan is to draw us through lovingkindness to Himself through our volition, to want and to desire Him and to receive of His goodness. Without volition it is impossible for man to receive anything from God or exercise faith. The imputations that we are given when we believe upon Christ volitionally establish our standing with God, and to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ we must exercise our volition by bringing every thought into captivity unto the knowledge of God.

I think I know whom you are, but it doesn't matter. Your argument for the kind of volition you argue for does not hold water in light of scripture. As much as its true that indeed we must "will" to receive Christ, it is also as much true that unregenerate, natural, carnal man can not and do not want to do this.

The lost are being described in Eph.2 as dead in sins and by nature the children of wrath and in 1Cor.2 as unable to know the things of the Spirit of God, as it be foolishness for them. It is impossible for these people to do and will anything that is godly, let alone use some "free will" ability to believe or receive Christ, because all their will is enmity to God and entirely sinful. We must be on our guard to never give the characteristics of the regenerate to the unregenerate.

It follows then that it is the quickening of the dead in sins brought to life by God's resurrection power (i. e. the new birth) that spawns a positive response to God's calling, their will being affected by God working in them. It is the new man that receives Christ, who knows what he has been saved from and thus shows gratitude for it. The old, carnal man cannot do this and all his self righteous, dead religion is an abomination before God.

 

[gotime]

When Israel were slaves in Egypt they had no power to come to God. but God came to them and by His power freed them from slavery from Egypt. however this did not make them Gods people, as it is written:

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine:

So it is that God must first call but his calling does not automatically equal saved. but His calling frees you to be able to chose to follow or not.

God comes to those who did not seek him and he frees them that they can make a choice. Choice only comes when God frees us.

Jesus did on the cross to free us that we could make a choice. but before the cross we were slaves and dead in sin. after the cross we are free from slavery and thus we can chose to either accept the conditions of salvation or reject them. and there are conditions:

Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you.

Again the condition is obedience. If you obey you live if not you go back to being a slave.

 

[royalscot]

dead religion is an abomination before God. (tribesman) who started religion,
Again the condition is obedience. If you obey you live, if not ,you go back to being a slave.(gotime) only in thought, you can go back to being a slave(looking at law, to save you). but your still saved , if you have excepted the gift.(the holy spirit) and you wonder, why paul, spent so much time, trying to explain the difference between the two.(law and grace)
whats this got to do with the topic,

 

[Agricola]

We are missing the real reason why people want Judas to be "saved", which is suicide. Judas did beg forgiveness, he knew he did wrong, he was so cut up about what he did he killed himself.

We are told that people who kill themselves are going to hell, well are they? Saying Judas has gone to hell was a way for the church leaders to scare people out of taking thier own lives, which in poverty stricken living hell would have been tempting thing to do

 

[tribesman]

We are missing the real reason why people want Judas to be "saved", which is suicide. Judas did beg forgiveness, he knew he did wrong, he was so cut up about what he did he killed himself.

We are told that people who kill themselves are going to hell, well are they? Saying Judas has gone to hell was a way for the church leaders to scare people out of taking thier own lives, which in poverty stricken living hell would have been tempting thing to do

Was suicide the worst thing Judas did...or was it betraying the Lord?

John.19

[10] Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
[11] Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

 

[jag1977]

what is wrong with people who kill themselves going to heaven, earth, Polaris, genesis, Obadiah, luke, exodus....etc...and who told who the killer told the victim the bullet is untidy, we ride it like a bull it is our pet animal and we have subdued the animal and all others profess it is greater than we see it.

 

[jag1977]

what is wrong with people who kill themselves going to heaven, earth, Polaris, genesis, Obadiah, luke, exodus....etc...and who told who the killer told the victim the bullet is untidy, we ride it like a bull it is our pet animal and we have subdued the animal and all others profess it is greater than we see it.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

 

[tribesman]

He who endures to the end shall be saved.

The questions then will be: how do you know you are saved now and how do you know you will be saved in the end? Both these questions you must in some form answer with that it is conditioned on you. I cannot agree to this as the Bible says that salvation is a free gift from God (Rom.5:18). God will take back His gift from some people because they don't work up for it enough? In such case God's gift is not free and we are calling God a liar. I cannot agree on such thinking, dear.

 

[jag1977]

The questions then will be: how do you know you are saved now and how do you know you will be saved in the end? Both these questions you must in some form answer with that it is conditioned on you. I cannot agree to this as the Bible says that salvation is a free gift from God (Rom.5:18). God will take back His gift from some people because they don't work up for it enough? In such case God's gift is not free and we are calling God a liar. I cannot agree on such thinking, dear.

And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?[SUP]31 [/SUP]I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
[SUP]38 [/SUP]But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[SUP]44 [/SUP]It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[SUP]49 [/SUP]And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[SUP]50 [/SUP]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[SUP]55 [/SUP]O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
[SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]58 [/SUP]Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[jag1977]

The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[jag1977]

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;[SUP]2 [/SUP]By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.


Sincerely,
JUDAS

 

[Cee]

I probably shouldn't reply to this...

But here we go. I'm going to do this really fast.

You keep saying free will isn't Scriptural, so let's show you how it is...

Jesus says the following, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:44)

This is a proof text used to say that men can not come to the Son without the Father, but here's the good news. The Father draws all men to His Son...

Jesus says the following later, "Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:31-32)

Simple enough.

God desires all to be saved. We see this here, "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

God is not double minded. He draws all men to Him. What is not Scriptural is "irresistible grace". Because men are drawn doesn't mean they are automatic believers. Scripture doesn't support this claim.

However Scripture does support many times God crying out to His people to turn to Him. Why? Because they have choice. And God telling Adam/Eve not to eat of the tree of good/evil. Why? Because they had a choice. And God telling Cain to repent because sin was waiting to master him. Why? Because he had a choice.

As far as the Scripture you keep promoting which says man is dead in his sins. You're right, but Christ died for all men and draws them unto Him.

And we know this is true because it supports the simple Scripture which Jesus cried out, "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24)

We see from this Scripture that when people believe they turn from death to life. They don't turn from death to life to believe. And the next Scripture supports this fully...

“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."

Why do some turn and others don't? Jesus said it was hardness of heart and Paul said it was because they were blinded by the enemy.

C.

I think I know whom you are, but it doesn't matter. Your argument for the kind of volition you argue for does not hold water in light of scripture. As much as its true that indeed we must "will" to receive Christ, it is also as much true that unregenerate, natural, carnal man can not and do not want to do this.

The lost are being described in Eph.2 as dead in sins and by nature the children of wrath and in 1Cor.2 as unable to know the things of the Spirit of God, as it be foolishness for them. It is impossible for these people to do and will anything that is godly, let alone use some "free will" ability to believe or receive Christ, because all their will is enmity to God and entirely sinful. We must be on our guard to never give the characteristics of the regenerate to the unregenerate.

It follows then that it is the quickening of the dead in sins brought to life by God's resurrection power (i. e. the new birth) that spawns a positive response to God's calling, their will being affected by God working in them. It is the new man that receives Christ, who knows what he has been saved from and thus shows gratitude for it. The old, carnal man cannot do this and all his self righteous, dead religion is an abomination before God.

 

[BradC]

I probably shouldn't reply to this...

But here we go. I'm going to do this really fast.

You keep saying free will isn't Scriptural, so let's show you how it is...

Jesus says the following, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:44)

This is a proof text used to say that men can not come to the Son without the Father, but here's the good news. The Father draws all men to His Son...

Jesus says the following later, "Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:31-32)

Simple enough.

God desires all to be saved. We see this here, "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

God is not double minded. He draws all men to Him. What is not Scriptural is "irresistible grace". Because men are drawn doesn't mean they are automatic believers. Scripture doesn't support this claim.

However Scripture does support many times God crying out to His people to turn to Him. Why? Because they have choice. And God telling Adam/Eve not to eat of the tree of good/evil. Why? Because they had a choice. And God telling Cain to repent because sin was waiting to master him. Why? Because he had a choice.

As far as the Scripture you keep promoting which says man is dead in his sins. You're right, but Christ died for all men and draws them unto Him.

And we know this is true because it supports the simple Scripture which Jesus cried out, "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24)

We see from this Scripture that when people believe they turn from death to life. They don't turn from death to life to believe. And the next Scripture supports this fully...

“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."

Why do some turn and others don't? Jesus said it was hardness of heart and Paul said it was because they were blinded by the enemy.

C.

You did reply and made an excellent case and hopefully convinced some. I personally think it is dangerous to take away man's volition in the process that God deals with man to bring man unto Himself. Every verb in the Greek that has an active voice indicates that the subject initiates the action and in order to do that they must exercise their volition. As of the men who were gathered at Pentecost hearing Peter preach and coming under the conviction of the Spirit and being pricked in their hearts spoke out and asked 'what shall we do' in (Acts 2:37) and Peter replied...

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

God delivered the gospel message through Peter, the people heard it in their ear, it brought truth and conviction in their heart and they were ready to respond and 3,000 souls did and were added to the church (Acts 2:41) because they exercised their volition toward and in the gospel.

 

[jandian]

The questions then will be: how do you know you are saved now and how do you know you will be saved in the end? Both these questions you must in some form answer with that it is conditioned on you. I cannot agree to this as the Bible says that salvation is a free gift from God (Rom.5:18). God will take back His gift from some people because they don't work up for it enough? In such case God's gift is not free and we are calling God a liar. I cannot agree on such thinking, dear.

Salvation is a free gift. Never said anything different.

 

[royalscot]

You did reply and made an excellent case and hopefully convinced some. I personally think it is dangerous to take away man's volition in the process that God deals with man to bring man unto Himself. Every verb in the Greek that has an active voice indicates that the subject initiates the action and in order to do that they must exercise their volition. As of the men who were gathered at Pentecost hearing Peter preach and coming under the conviction of the Spirit and being pricked in their hearts spoke out and asked 'what shall we do' in (Acts 2:37) and Peter replied...

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

God delivered the gospel message through Peter, the people heard it in their ear, it brought truth and conviction in their heart and they were ready to respond and 3,000 souls did and were added to the church (Acts 2:41) because they exercised their volition toward and in the gospel.

these were jewish people, and not gentile people,(at pentecost) the biggest mistake religion(churches and sects) have made in there dividing of scripture. hence repent, (to a law) Cornelius no repent , ie believed that jesus Christ, came died , went back to heaven. what the greek or verb, dose not say is the are jewish. (act 15) what law was a gentile to follow. etc

god so loved the world, he sent his one and only son, that who ever believes in him has eternal live( answer yes or no to this question) who saves , and who, do you need, to believe in to be saved.

 

[royalscot]

on the subject of Pentecost, happened after, jesus went back to heaven. so judus, was under the old covenant. so asking, taking your own life,( is it a sin), yet under a new covenant, what saves you. so from who s view point (ie being human) can it be answered.

 

[LT]

Judas was lost because Scripture said he was. Christ Himself said that Judas was lost. There is no possible argument to the contrary.

The biggest mistake that most modern theologians make is thinking that salvation was ever Law based. Salvation was always by faith. The letter of Hebrews makes that clear, along with the whole of NT and OT Scripture.
There is and was but one salvation, revealed in Jesus Christ, fulfilled by His sacrifice, and to be enacted on the Last Day.

 

[royalscot]

the fact of seeing, judas as a spy,( for example, food for thought, ie money, and blind eyes being used) for the jewish leaders(go s via to modern day leaders, political , and church and sects etc) shows, much, much more. however, this is not the topic. ie via the cross to the end of the new testament, to all disciples being martyred.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Peter denied Jesus Christ Three times, but he did not go and kill himself.
Judas repented what he had done but went and killed himself.
Peter repented what he had done and knew he was forgiven because of the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Even though Judas repented, it was not a True repentance, if he were to have only believed the teachings of Jesus Christ. but he didn't believe he was forgiven and went and killed himself. He could have been like Peter, repented and KNEW he was forgiven. Jesus speaking of Judas said it would be better if he were never born - Jesus would never say such a thing to a person who is Saved or is going to be Saved.

 

[tourist]

His calling and Election:

Luke 6:12-16
12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.
13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,
16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

Jesus goes up to a mountain to pray to His Father. He spends all night in communion with God and returns when it is day. Jesus calls unto Him His disciples. And of them He chose twelve men whom He also named apostles.

Twelve apostles. Not eleven apostles and one false apostle. Twelve apostles. And Jesus named them apostles.

Here is the calling and the election of twelve men that will be with Jesus until His arrest and crucifixion.
Peter was called and elected in the same capacity as James. Judas was called and elect in the same capacity as Peter. There is no distinction in the calling and election of these twelve men. And Scripture says Jesus named them apostles.

They are His apostles, and the gifts and calling of God is without repentance (Rom. 11:29).

Here, Jesus calls and elects Judas to "be with Him" (implying relationship Mk. 3:14), and for three years Judas is with Jesus.
I know Judas was a thief. Peter was a blasphemer. He cussed and cursed. Peter had a big mouth. Judas had big eyes and a big desire for monetary gain. Twelve men, all sinners, and in need of a Savior.

I don't second-guess Jesus. He called twelve men and the Scripture says Jesus named them apostles. No man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them. If there's no drawing, there's no coming. And if one is elect of God and called, then that alone is enough for me that through ones life the perseverance of the saint will be fulfilled by God. There is nothing man can do to escape the call of God on their life, even if it lasts on earth only three years.

I believe Judas is saved because Jesus called and elect him to "be with Him," and by the mere fact that Scripture says Jesus named Judas an apostle.
A true apostle.
An apostle of the Lamb (Jn. 1:29).

I believe that Judas was the only apostle that Jesus called "friend". This happen in the garden where Judas betrayed Him. I am not Jesus but I do know that if I were Jesus I would do everything possible for him so that he would live with me for an eternity in heaven. What is impossible for man is possible with God. Jesus said that He will wipe all tears from our eyes. If Judas was not in heaven with me it would take more than a tissue from Jesus to wipe my tears away. I have the faith that His word it true and I will shake Judas's hand the next time that I see him.