Why I believe the Great Tribulation started in 70 A.D.

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Nov 23, 2013
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

When we see all those things happen (verse 28 and back, then is the time of our redemption.

You know we have already been redeemed. We were redeemed from the curse of the law when Christ died and rose again... and that's exactly why that text was put in Luke 21:28.

Do you know of any scripture that says otherwise... that we HAVE NOT been redeemed yet?
 
Apr 3, 2019
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

When we see all those things happen (verse 28 and back, then is the time of our redemption.

You know we have already been redeemed. We were redeemed from the curse of the law when Christ died and rose again... and that's exactly why that text was put in Luke 21:28.

Do you know of any scripture that says otherwise... that we HAVE NOT been redeemed yet?
Jesus is not speaking of the cross here K16, he is speaking of his return to judge the apostate nation (66-70AD).

(Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.)

(Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh)

The context of redemption is related to his coming in a cloud with power and great glory, which is precisely what he told the high priest and the council:

(Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.)
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Jesus is not speaking of the cross here K16, he is speaking of his return to judge the apostate nation (66-70AD).

(Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.)

(Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh)

The context of redemption is related to his coming in a cloud with power and great glory, which is precisely what he told the high priest and the council:

(Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.)
Mat_10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Jesus speaking directly to the disciples, nothing future... he said those 12 would not have gone to all the cities of Israel BEFORE the son of man comes. When did that happen?
 

GaryA

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This answer does not pass muster Gary, ...
Sure it does - it's common sense.

Regardless of the time span, the only way to shorten it once it has begun is to cause it to end earlier than it would have ended otherwise.

It would be ridiculous to suggest that this is only true for "short" periods of time.
 

GaryA

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Revelation was "SIGNIFIED", the entire book is given in symbolic language.
So --- the events of Trumpets 1-3 are not literal; therefore, they do not represent "great tribulation" like you suggested before - because, it is all 100% symbolic -- right?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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So --- the events of Trumpets 1-3 are not literal; therefore, they do not represent "great tribulation" like you suggested before - because, it is all 100% symbolic -- right?
Everything in Revelation is going to literally happen or literally has already happened. Angels (messengers) are going to sound a trumpet, whatever that trumpet is. I can think of two things off the top of my head that are symbolized by trumpets - the literal voice of Jesus and the spiritual voice of Jesus, the bible. There may be others but that's all that comes to mind right now.

Here is one example of my view of the trumpets.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Revelation 9:1 was fulfilled right here in Luke 10 wasn't it?

Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

The 5th angel sounded and a star fell from heaven.
Jesus said he SAW (past tense) Satan fall from heaven.
The 70 returned having DOMINION over the devils through the name of Christ.

Satan and the angels are called stars in the bible. To me that's pretty cut and dry.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Everything in Revelation is going to literally happen or literally has already happened. Angels (messengers) are going to sound a trumpet, whatever that trumpet is. I can think of two things off the top of my head that are symbolized by trumpets - the literal voice of Jesus and the spiritual voice of Jesus, the bible. There may be others but that's all that comes to mind right now.

Here is one example of my view of the trumpets.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Revelation 9:1 was fulfilled right here in Luke 10 wasn't it?

Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

The 5th angel sounded and a star fell from heaven.
Jesus said he SAW (past tense) Satan fall from heaven.
The 70 returned having DOMINION over the devils through the name of Christ.

Satan and the angels are called stars in the bible. To me that's pretty cut and dry.
Where does the key to the bottomless pit fit in?
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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I don't see from context how the GT can be over nearly 2000 years when Jesus himself said the days of the GT were to be shortened:

(Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.)

(Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.)

(Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.)

(Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?)
I've also recently subscribed to the Historicist view, and without trying to push that view (as I already caught a lot of flak for it a few months ago in another thread) I hope to show you from the context that the Great Tribulation could possibly span nearly 2000 years from a point of view while still reasonably being considered "short".


1) There's the time conversion factor...

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.



2) Christ tells his servants that he is coming quickly. But we've been waiting for nearly 2000 human years for his return.

Revelation 3:11
I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Revelation 22:12-14
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.



3) A prophecy for Israel & Judah says the two houses would be revived in three "days", which still hasn't been fully realized yet in 2000 years.

Hosea 6:1-2
Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us to pieces, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bind up our wounds. After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live in His presence.

---

So Father God doesn't measure time by man's standard. From the perspective of heaven, humanity has only been here for 6 days. That's pretty short from the Almighty's perspective. Now the implication of the Hosea passage above is that the "wounding" on the houses would be for 2 days, while the healing (i.e. binding up of said wounds) would be on the following day; the 3rd day.

So if we put it all together, the two houses would be punished (i.e. wounded) for 2000 years, and in the very next millennium (following punishment) the restoration would happen and they will live in His presence...which sounds very similar to the resurrection of the dead and the millennium reign.



4) Then I come to the following passage and it seems to indicate this exact punishment beginning...

Luke 21:20-24 [brackets mine]
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains, and let them which are in the midst of it depart out, and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written [like in Hosea??] may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


----


This is why I believe:

The Great Tribulation (of the Jews) = The Time of the Gentiles = Nearly 2000 years of the so-called Church Age

...where the kingdom of God was "taken from [them] and given to a people who will produce its fruits" (Matthew 21:43).



5) Romans 11:1, 5, 7, 11-12, 15, 25, 28 [brackets mine]
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace ["for the sake of the elect..." - Matt 24:22]

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, but the elect(ion) hath obtained it ["for the sake of the elect..." - Matt 24:22], and the rest were blinded.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall ["the falling away" - 2 Thess 2:3] salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them ["the falling away" - 2 Thess 2:3] be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead ["gathering together unto Him" - 2 Thess 2:1]?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the elect(ion), ["for the sake of the elect..." - Matt 24:22] they are beloved for the father's sakes.
 
H

Hevosmies358

Guest
Im getting tired of this great tribulation. Its been 2000years already. Get on with it!

Its just like Jesus said, worse time than has ever been before, nor ever shall be.

I FEEL IT. Im drinking water and eating candy at 1:47AM. THE STRUGGLE is real. Aint nobody got it as bad as me!

No but seriously @GaryA doesnt it bother you that this worst time ever has been going on for this long and there have been some really good times and really bad times? For example TODAY compared to world war II is kind of easy peazy.
 

GaryA

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IF you pay very close attention to how the Bible "defines" the start of the GT and the end of the GT - and - you look closely at the "details" surrounding those "definitions" - and - you are able to "let go" of the things you have "learned" (that are full of assumptions) about the End Times Scenario -- you WILL discover that the futurist and preterist views are both in error - because neither fully matches all of the "details" completely.

I am trying my best to help folks on here understand how that - the only way all of the "details" actually match in scripture is if the GT is a long period of time that started circa 70 A.D. and ends in the future.

This is why people assume that it must all be future or past - because, they refuse to examine all of the "details" exactly as scripture records them. Instead, they prefer to clutch tightly onto what they were taught, making assumptions about things that scripture does not actually say.
The answer is in the details.

IF you pay very close attention to how the Bible "defines" the start of the GT and the end of the GT - and - you look closely at the "details" surrounding those "definitions" - and - you are able to "let go" of the things you have "learned" (that are full of assumptions) about the End Times Scenario -- you WILL discover that the futurist and preterist views are both in error - because neither fully matches all of the "details" completely.

I am trying my best to help folks on here understand how that - the only way all of the "details" actually match in scripture is if the GT is a long period of time that started circa 70 A.D. and ends in the future.

This is why people assume that it must all be future or past - because, they refuse to examine all of the "details" exactly as scripture records them. Instead, they prefer to clutch tightly onto what they were taught, making assumptions about things that scripture does not actually say.
Until you are willing to put a microscope on the details to examine them carefully, you are not going to understand.

IF you pay very close attention to how the Bible "defines" the start of the GT and the end of the GT - and - you look closely at the "details" surrounding those "definitions" - and - you are able to "let go" of the things you have "learned" (that are full of assumptions) about the End Times Scenario -- you WILL discover that the futurist and preterist views are both in error - because neither fully matches all of the "details" completely.

I am trying my best to help folks on here understand how that - the only way all of the "details" actually match in scripture is if the GT is a long period of time that started circa 70 A.D. and ends in the future.

This is why people assume that it must all be future or past - because, they refuse to examine all of the "details" exactly as scripture records them. Instead, they prefer to clutch tightly onto what they were taught, making assumptions about things that scripture does not actually say.
People can "play their tape" all day - quote scripture all day - etc. etc. etc. - but, until you focus on the details, you are not going to arrive at the proper conclusion.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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The answer is in the details.


Until you are willing to put a microscope on the details to examine them carefully, you are not going to understand.


People can "play their tape" all day - quote scripture all day - etc. etc. etc. - but, until you focus on the details, you are not going to arrive at the proper conclusion.
I Need To Focus On Gary's Details, Then And Only Then Will I Be Enlightened? :giggle:

We Will Disagree, Matthew 24:15-31 Are Future Events Unfulfilled, Historicism's Eschatology Is Just Another False Teaching Of Man, To Be Added To The Long List Of False Teachings.

Matthew 24:15, AOD (Future)
Matthew 24:21, Great Tribulation (Future)
Matthew 24:29-30, Second Coming (Future)
 

GaryA

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I Need To Focus On Gary's Details, Then And Only Then Will I Be Enlightened? :giggle:
It has nothing to do with Gary - it has everything to do with Scripture.

Gary is not that important. What the Bible really actually says - is.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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As concerning the revelation of Daniel and Revelation, it seems noting detail may be relevant however most assuredly waiting for understanding given by the Holy Spirit is the peaceful manner in understanding. It is a dangerous idea to practice interpreting such important writings without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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It has nothing to do with Gary - it has everything to do with Scripture.
This is an ancient thread, Gary, but fortunately for all the Great Tribulation is still in the future. And that is according to Scripture.
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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This is an ancient thread, Gary, but fortunately for all the Great Tribulation is still in the future. And that is according to Scripture.
That's one thing we agree on
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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With the church in so many cases being so dismal and lacking vision, one is tempted to believe we are in the great tribulation. Bearing in mind the word means the cause of trouble and/or suffering. I think God must be suffering when he sees the church so disobedient to his Word.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Doesn't "great tribulation" start when man of sin(antichrist)sits in temple of God(not in existence since 70ad=but may come soon in jerusalem),he claims to be God,and does miracles to prove his claim?(matthew24,2ndthessalonians2,daniel7,revelation13),I don't think Daniel's70th week has started yet,but it could come soon(daniel9),the final 42 months(1290days)starts at that point=public unveiling to world of antichrist
I would offer. The tribulation for the unbelieving faithless Jews began when Jesus said. . "it is finished" the veil representing the foreskin of the first born, our bloody husband Christ. The sign of circummsion, was rent . The time of reformation had come. Kings in Israel. . the abomination of desolation was made to no effect. .

It points to the time when Satan could no longer deceive all the nations that a Jewish man was sitting in the holy, of holies . The veil being rent from the top to the bottom exposed the lie.

There was no Wizard of Oz connected to the mighty voice. Just the unseen presence of faith calling men to Kansas. (Zion)

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations (all of the nations) no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.