Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

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FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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Yes, I do agree that there has to be a Godly sorrow in ones life, and that there comes a time
where the believer acknowledges the fact that he/she is in fact sick, and in need of help,
which also leads to a call unto the Lord.

I do also believe that this sorrow comes from the goodness of God, and Him drawing on us.
The only way in to the Kingdom of God is by the hand of God, I agree -
as the Spiritual seal on the heart is only done by Him, and not by a work of flesh.

The work of God is to believe on Jesus Christ, God in flesh - and the work He did for us.
He is the fulfillment of the law - and righteousness is only found by His Spirit in us.

But what is your view on salvation? Do you not believe that He is able to keep you?
A good question? I am chosen, a servant, a blind man given sight, a lost individual with no hope
doomed to destruction, given a treasure beyond measure. Jesus keeps me, is my breadth, my morning
and my night, the thing I love and the thing that I depend upon. His grace is all I have, and each
day I rise at His will and in His tender care.

Belief is not how I would describe this, dwelling and abiding is. There is no other place.
 
Apr 19, 2019
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A good question? I am chosen, a servant, a blind man given sight, a lost individual with no hope
doomed to destruction, given a treasure beyond measure. Jesus keeps me, is my breadth, my morning
and my night, the thing I love and the thing that I depend upon. His grace is all I have, and each
day I rise at His will and in His tender care.

Belief is not how I would describe this, dwelling and abiding is. There is no other place.
I am curious to if you agree that faith is the way we complete it - as Jesus tells us in John 6:28-29
…28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?”
29Jesus replied,“The work of God is this: to believe in the OneHe has sent.”

Do you believe that Jesus is the Holy Spirit? That the Father is the Holy Spirit?
Or that you can lose salvation - when Jesus Himself is the eternal life dwelling inside of you?

Me personally believes in what He says: I will never leave you or forsake you, and that He has the ability to keep me.
I do also believe that if I ever were to walk off - which I never in a lifetime would do - I would die, but the spirit would be saved,
because of the work God has done. I know for a fact, 100% that His Spirit is within, as I believe every believer should do.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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The word "if" confirms that "fall away" is possible.
Wrong

In any language if has multiple meanings, even in scripture it does not always means if.

In context. Hebrews is saying, If a person falls away (if it were possible) they could not be renewed.

Saying this proves a person can lose salvation, You must in context admit it means once that salvation is lost it is gone forever.
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
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Theological concepts and terms need precision and clarity when being explained. Each generation struggles to convey these truths.

I studied the teachings of a creative teacher years back that used different analogies and a unique vocabulary to convey the concepts of being spiritual or carnal.

One verse that was central to his explanation was 1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

For the true believer who after their initial forgiveness and salvation, but then sins, 1 Jn. 1:9 was their route to restoring fellowship.

Paul spoke of Christians being carnal or spiritual. These concepts are fairly straightforward. One is either spiritual or carnal at any point in time. One is either one or the other in an absolute sense, according to the Greek. One can’t be a “little” spiritual or a “little” carnal.

We are commanded in many verses to “be” spiritual or “lead” by the Spirit. We are also warned not to “quench” or “grieve” the Holy Spirit. Only a Christian can really do either of these so the focus is that when a Christian sins, they loose that relationship with God by quenching or grieving the Spirit. Confession through 1 Jn. 1:9 is vital.

To break down this verse into the Greek the word “confess” is a legal term that means to- say, state or name. Kind of like in the garden when God asked Adam “where are you? What have you done?”

God already knew, He simply wanted Adam to “confess,” or admit to himself, what he had done. Similar to when Jacob wrestled the Angel and the angel said!” What is your name?” (His name means .....)

In the same way, our only power over our sins, after salvation, is honest, sincere confession To God, who then can forgive it and restore us to fellowship with Him.

So these post salvations sins have to do with fellowship, with God, through the Holy Spirit, and not salvation. They hinder our testimony, our blessings and our growth, and lead to loss in this life and loss of rewards in Heaven, so they are no small matter.

When put in this perspective, it’s makes sense to me, and hopefully others.

What do you think? Does this help or muddy the waters?
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
3,270
1,267
113
Usa
Yes, I do agree that there has to be a Godly sorrow in ones life, and that there comes a time
where the believer acknowledges the fact that he/she is in fact sick, and in need of help,
which also leads to a call unto the Lord.

I do also believe that this sorrow comes from the goodness of God, and Him drawing on us.
The only way in to the Kingdom of God is by the hand of God, I agree -
as the Spiritual seal on the heart is only done by Him, and not by a work of flesh.

The work of God is to believe on Jesus Christ, God in flesh - and the work He did for us.
The cross, His shedding of blood.
He is the fulfillment of the law - and righteousness is only found by His Spirit in us.

But what is your view on salvation? Do you not believe that He is able to keep you?
Welcome to c.c. and Blessings !💖💖💖
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
6,581
1,304
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So these post salvations sins have to do with fellowship, with God, through the Holy Spirit, and not salvation. They hinder our testimony, our blessings and our growth, and lead to loss in this life and loss of rewards in Heaven, so they are no small matter.

When put in this perspective, it’s makes sense to me, and hopefully others.

What do you think? Does this help or muddy the waters?
Agreed. (y) Nice post (in its entirety).
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,199
113
I am curious to if you agree that faith is the way we complete it - as Jesus tells us in John 6:28-29
…28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?”
29Jesus replied,“The work of God is this: to believe in the OneHe has sent.”

Do you believe that Jesus is the Holy Spirit? That the Father is the Holy Spirit?
Or that you can lose salvation - when Jesus Himself is the eternal life dwelling inside of you?

Me personally believes in what He says: I will never leave you or forsake you, and that He has the ability to keep me.
I do also believe that if I ever were to walk off - which I never in a lifetime would do - I would die, but the spirit would be saved,
because of the work God has done. I know for a fact, 100% that His Spirit is within, as I believe every believer should do.
The point is, what I believe is possible or not possible does not change my relationship with the Lord.
So I rest in Him. The odd thing is some want to make the belief in what is or is not possible effects
our ultimate reality in Jesus, which is absurd. We stand in Christ because of faith, and we walk with
Him because of the cross. That is all we need, Amen.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
Read it for yourself:) And answer it:)

James 2 New International Version (NIV)
Favoritism Forbidden
2 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.


18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
This needed to be bumped. Thanks for posting this. A brother asked how can anyone argue with this? Indeed, how can one argue against these plain words?
 
K

Karraster

Guest
I'm glad you said this.

Judas PROVES that a FOLLOWER of Jesus is not necessarily a saved, Born Again Child of God.

In the 2 elements of Salvation, confession, and belief Judas fails both. He NEVER confessed Jesus as Lord. He referred to him as master or teacher, or Rabbi, but NEVER LORD. He didn't confess, because he never believed. Even upon his death he referred to Jesus as betraying "innocent blood" NOT Lord or the Son of God.

So yes, he IS a good example of those who will Christ say "I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART FROM ME..."

Please don't be one of them.
This is a great example of reading part of a verse, trying to make it say something it does not.

Christ will say "I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART FROM ME.." Who is He talking to? This is only part of a sentence Penned. What Bible version do you use? Please don't be one of them that miss the last half of the sentence.

NIV
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

New Living Translation
But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

English Standard Version
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Berean Study Bible
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Berean Literal Bible
And then I will declare unto them, 'I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness.'

New American Standard Bible
"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
 
K

Karraster

Guest
Are you ok? You are sounding more and more unhinged.

You said you don't listen to men, only the Word, yet refuse to read the mountain of God's Word that destroys your heresy.

Maybe it's a good thing you are starting to crack.
LOL, thanks so much for the laugh, you are too funny. :)
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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This is a great example of reading part of a verse, trying to make it say something it does not.

Christ will say "I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART FROM ME.." Who is He talking to? This is only part of a sentence Penned. What Bible version do you use? Please don't be one of them that miss the last half of the sentence.

NIV
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

New Living Translation
But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

English Standard Version
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Berean Study Bible
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Berean Literal Bible
And then I will declare unto them, 'I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness.'

New American Standard Bible
"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
James 2:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

The guys in Matthew 7 THOUGHT that their works and THEIR following the Law EVEN in Christ's name was going to get them to Heaven.

They did NOT rely on Christ's work, and Christ fulfilling the Law, and Christ's righteousness. THAT is why they were lawless!

It is critically important to understand that Jesus said He NEVER KNEW THEM! NOT that He knew them at one time, they then fell away, and He didn't know them then. HE NEVER KNEW THEM!
 
K

Karraster

Guest
James 2:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

The guys in Matthew 7 THOUGHT that their works and THEIR following the Law EVEN in Christ's name was going to get them to Heaven.

They did NOT rely on Christ's work, and Christ fulfilling the Law, and Christ's righteousness. THAT is why they were lawless!

It is critically important to understand that Jesus said He NEVER KNEW THEM! NOT that He knew them at one time, they then fell away, and He didn't know them then. HE NEVER KNEW THEM!
Answer why you quote half of Matthew 7:23? Dcon does this frequently, you sound just like him. ??? Are you Hyper-Grace? I thought this site was against that teaching.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
9,507
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Answer why you quote half of Matthew 7:23? Dcon does this frequently, you sound just like him. ??? Are you Hyper-Grace? I thought this site was against that teaching.
What the H**L are you talking about!? Are you looking to just start trouble?

I just showed you what the passage was about. Must we recite the WHOLE Bible when making a point? Just ignorant.
 
Feb 6, 2019
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We are starting vacation Bible school this week , please send me a prayer for strength and guidance, thank you
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Answer why you quote half of Matthew 7:23? Dcon does this frequently, you sound just like him. ??? Are you Hyper-Grace? I thought this site was against that teaching.
Bear in mind that this context is the entrance into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (upon His "return" to the earth; "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" [not "UP IN Heaven"]).


But, aside from that, even...

I find the following verses to be applicable (per the text) to those we see referred to in this Matthew 7:21-23 passage:

"How long shall they utter and speak hard things? and all the workers of iniquity boast themselves?" Ps94:4


"Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord." Ps14:4 ;

"Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God." Ps53:4



What they say is "haven't WE... DONE many wonderful works" (not one word about Jesus and His finished work on the Cross [that they are relying upon], at all. ;) They "come in His name" ['in Thy name' have done them] but He "NEVER KNEW THEM")
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
6,581
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^ EDIT to add to that:

Romans 10:2-4 -

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. [then see v.4 and 1Cor1:30-31, below]


1 Cor 1:30-31 -

30 But out of Him, you are in Christ Jesus, who has been made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 in order that, as it has been written: “The one boasting, let him boast in the Lord."
 
Feb 6, 2019
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We have been sealed by God at our time of acceptance, Jesus paid it all, we need to give our lives to him, I’m ready for that millennium, praise Jesus!
 

Eli12

Active member
Jul 3, 2019
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Ya you can’t lose salvation! God says you can never be plucked
A person can't loose what that person doesn't have. Nobody is been saved YET ... Salvation will come at the moment of the judgement. A lot of people who have the name of Christ all the time on their mouth, will get something very different of what they thought they would (Mat 7:21-23)

Mat 24:13 (ESV) But the one who endures to the end will be saved.