Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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It sure sounds like you are teaching salvation by faith + works from this post below (and some other posts). I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this. I've heard numerous people in the past say they don't teach salvation by faith + works, yet their posts seem to indicate otherwise and they don't even seem to realize it.
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And guojing if someone has imputed righteousness does that mean they dont need to Obey God..
Or does that mean God doesn't see their sins anymore I made an error in that message above, meant faith "without" works is dead.
Those scriptures I quoted are actually about salvation and eternal life. So if they require doing Gods will, obeying other than believing. I have to believe all of them. Because I didnt just pick out the scriptures about belief. But first we need to be born again of course and receive the holy spirit.
Or does that mean God doesn't see their sins anymore I made an error in that message above, meant faith "without" works is dead.
Those scriptures I quoted are actually about salvation and eternal life. So if they require doing Gods will, obeying other than believing. I have to believe all of them. Because I didnt just pick out the scriptures about belief. But first we need to be born again of course and receive the holy spirit.
If I had works without Jesus I cant get saved.
Faith without works wouldn't be a real one, because if we dont help our brothers and sisters in need our faith is not alive. So a work in the book of James is loving our brothers and sisters when they are in need.
Keeping Gods commands is a separate scripture about loving God.
So if you want me to separate what I mean I will do that.
Faith without works wouldn't be a real one, because if we dont help our brothers and sisters in need our faith is not alive. So a work in the book of James is loving our brothers and sisters when they are in need.
Keeping Gods commands is a separate scripture about loving God.
So if you want me to separate what I mean I will do that.
Imputed righteousness has a special meaning, "as if you have never sinned". Yes, God does not see your sins anymore.
(KJV) Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
I think Christians of all denominations have no problems believing that Jesus on the cross, has took our sins, and saved us. That is the garment of salvation.
But the divine exchange did more than that. We are not only clothed with the garment of salvation, we are also covered with an additional part, which is the robe of righteousness.
In some other translations, the term used is wrapped, indicating that we are completely covered. This means we are not only saved from the penalty of our sins, we are completely righteous.
This divine exchange worked so well that now God the Father sees me as though I have never sinned! Its because I now received the righteousness of Jesus in exchange. This level of righteousness that I have, is based on the following three testimonies of Jesus
We obey God, don't get me wrong, but it is never to stay or maintain our imputed righteousness. We cannot lose that imputed righteousness thru any actions.
(KJV) Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
I think Christians of all denominations have no problems believing that Jesus on the cross, has took our sins, and saved us. That is the garment of salvation.
But the divine exchange did more than that. We are not only clothed with the garment of salvation, we are also covered with an additional part, which is the robe of righteousness.
In some other translations, the term used is wrapped, indicating that we are completely covered. This means we are not only saved from the penalty of our sins, we are completely righteous.
This divine exchange worked so well that now God the Father sees me as though I have never sinned! Its because I now received the righteousness of Jesus in exchange. This level of righteousness that I have, is based on the following three testimonies of Jesus
- Peter, a man of action, said in 1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth
- John, a man of love, said in 1 John 3:5, You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
- Paul, a man of intellect, said in 2 Cor 5:21, For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
We obey God, don't get me wrong, but it is never to stay or maintain our imputed righteousness. We cannot lose that imputed righteousness thru any actions.
And I just think, why stress about it? I can see and other people in my life can see God has done a great work, and still continues to do a great work in my heart.
Our works aren't always going to be entirely perfect as we live this life. Walking with God in this life is a continual learning process.
Some things you think you were totally right on until God pulls you up and shows you a different way. And you could've read that different way a thousand times in His word before hand. He could've been showing you that lesson tens of times and gone full circle for years until you finally get it.
I've been wrong about so many things which lead to wrong works like judgement, self righteousness, entitlement etc. and you don't even realise it until God pulls you up and shows you His way so you can walk more like Him.
The more He shows me, I've found the less I worry about my shortcomings, because they're infinite LOL!
What does this have to do with works? It has everything to do with it because our works start in the heart and a thought then become an action. And when God, in His mercy, adjusts your thoughts to align with His ways, out comes the good work.
Yay!
Our works aren't always going to be entirely perfect as we live this life. Walking with God in this life is a continual learning process.
Some things you think you were totally right on until God pulls you up and shows you a different way. And you could've read that different way a thousand times in His word before hand. He could've been showing you that lesson tens of times and gone full circle for years until you finally get it.
I've been wrong about so many things which lead to wrong works like judgement, self righteousness, entitlement etc. and you don't even realise it until God pulls you up and shows you His way so you can walk more like Him.
The more He shows me, I've found the less I worry about my shortcomings, because they're infinite LOL!
What does this have to do with works? It has everything to do with it because our works start in the heart and a thought then become an action. And when God, in His mercy, adjusts your thoughts to align with His ways, out comes the good work.
Yay!
John 6:40 fits well with Matthew 7:21, but you didn't quote John 6:40 and there is a difference between doing God's will in order to become saved (John 6:40) and doing God's will after we have been saved (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18) which can get mixed up and confused and lead to salvation by faith + works.
You quoted two verses on baptism, so do you believe we are saved by faith + baptism? Baptism is a work.
You said "Believing, Obeying and doing Gods will are needed for salvation," which implies that believing (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc..) is not enough and obeying which "follows" believing is "works." We are saved through believing in Him (John 3:16) and choosing to believe in Him/believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16; 10:16) and is God's will. (John 6:40) Is this what you meant by believing, obeying and doing God's will are needed for salvation or did you have something else in mind in regards to "obeying and doing God's will" (which involve works that follow saving faith in Christ) in order to obtain salvation?
You quoted two verses on baptism, so do you believe we are saved by faith + baptism? Baptism is a work.
You said "Believing, Obeying and doing Gods will are needed for salvation," which implies that believing (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc..) is not enough and obeying which "follows" believing is "works." We are saved through believing in Him (John 3:16) and choosing to believe in Him/believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16; 10:16) and is God's will. (John 6:40) Is this what you meant by believing, obeying and doing God's will are needed for salvation or did you have something else in mind in regards to "obeying and doing God's will" (which involve works that follow saving faith in Christ) in order to obtain salvation?
I just believe what the scriptures tell me. But with the baptism it's a clean conscience before God. Not the cleaning of the filth on our flesh. So this probably needed to be put with another scripture. I just view these scriptures separately when I look at them. One is talking about doing the will of God for salvation, one is talking about eternal salvation is for those who obey. So I think that I need to believe and obey for salvation and live according to Gods will. Gods will is whatever is written in the new testament for me to follow personally as a Christian. To obey his commands in the new testament and put Gods word into practice and i also need to continue in the faith until the very end.
Gods will
Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
1 Thessalonians 5:18
Give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus
for you.
1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;
1 Peter 3:17
For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.
James 4:15
Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.”
1 Peter 4:19
Therefore let those who suffer according to God's will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.
Romans 8:27
And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
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Faith, Grace, Not by works - words that have people on a slippery road. Many think they have it figured but the truth is, they have not.
And many think that works are deeds and belief in Christ/ Trusting Christ/ Faith in Christ are some form of thoughts and mental pictures; Not true, it is actually the opposite, works are beliefs/thoughts and Faith in Christ/ Trusting Christ/ Belief in Christ are actually deeds.
Example of a work which is a belief:
If i remember the Sabbath, to keep it Holy for my salvation - what kind of works i'm i supposed to do? doesn't this command ask me not to do any work on this particular day?
Yet the kind of faith being taught today is just another works salvation but i guess people are blinded.
Faith in Christ/Belief in Christ/ Trust in Christ is nothing more than love for one another. The bible says, the one who loves has fulfilled all the requirements and it also says, the one who loves knows God, it doesn't say, the one who knows God has or will love others for this is an impossibility.
And many think that works are deeds and belief in Christ/ Trusting Christ/ Faith in Christ are some form of thoughts and mental pictures; Not true, it is actually the opposite, works are beliefs/thoughts and Faith in Christ/ Trusting Christ/ Belief in Christ are actually deeds.
Example of a work which is a belief:
If i remember the Sabbath, to keep it Holy for my salvation - what kind of works i'm i supposed to do? doesn't this command ask me not to do any work on this particular day?
Yet the kind of faith being taught today is just another works salvation but i guess people are blinded.
Faith in Christ/Belief in Christ/ Trust in Christ is nothing more than love for one another. The bible says, the one who loves has fulfilled all the requirements and it also says, the one who loves knows God, it doesn't say, the one who knows God has or will love others for this is an impossibility.
Judgement as demonstrated in the scriptures numerous times is about the deeds and never about the thoughts, so how come we are easily confused?!
Examples:
Rev 14:12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. 13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.
Rev 22:12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.
Revelation 2:23
Then I will strike her children dead, and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Q. How can people be judged according to their deeds when salvation is separate from deeds?
Examples:
Rev 14:12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. 13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.
Rev 22:12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.
Revelation 2:23
Then I will strike her children dead, and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Q. How can people be judged according to their deeds when salvation is separate from deeds?
*See post #3,420 for the answer to your question.
Q. What does it mean to "keep" the commandments of God? Q. Is keeping the commandments of God the basis or means by which we obtain eternal life or the demonstrative evidence that we know God and have received eternal life? Q. What will these works/deeds determine for believers and what will they determine for unbelievers at the judgment? Q. What is the difference between a "reward" and a "free gift?"
Q. What does it mean to "keep" the commandments of God? Q. Is keeping the commandments of God the basis or means by which we obtain eternal life or the demonstrative evidence that we know God and have received eternal life? Q. What will these works/deeds determine for believers and what will they determine for unbelievers at the judgment? Q. What is the difference between a "reward" and a "free gift?"
This is just a misunderstanding.
1. Still, judgement is based on what people do as opposed to what they thought. I'm yet to see a verse demonstrating judgement where people are asked what they thought and what they understood, it is always about what they have done which also means salvation. You can not be judged according to your deeds when salvation is about what you think.
2. No one is saved because of what they did. The scripture is clear about these good deeds (keeping God's commandment). The one who keeps God's commandment abides in Christ.
John 15:9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
3. We all know how commandments work. Those that obey are rewarded and those that disobey face the consequences. God does not command and then cause some few people to obey so that He rewards them and also fail to cause others to obey so that He can harshly punish them. This can no longer be called righteous judgement (God forbid). This is not the kind of God to be worshiped.
The one true God desires all men to be saved and He has said, "the righteousness of the righteous is upon them and the wickedness of the wicked is upon them. But if a wicked man turns from his evil ways and obey Him then He shall forgive and forget all their wickedness.."
1. Still, judgement is based on what people do as opposed to what they thought. I'm yet to see a verse demonstrating judgement where people are asked what they thought and what they understood, it is always about what they have done which also means salvation. You can not be judged according to your deeds when salvation is about what you think.
2. No one is saved because of what they did. The scripture is clear about these good deeds (keeping God's commandment). The one who keeps God's commandment abides in Christ.
John 15:9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
3. We all know how commandments work. Those that obey are rewarded and those that disobey face the consequences. God does not command and then cause some few people to obey so that He rewards them and also fail to cause others to obey so that He can harshly punish them. This can no longer be called righteous judgement (God forbid). This is not the kind of God to be worshiped.
The one true God desires all men to be saved and He has said, "the righteousness of the righteous is upon them and the wickedness of the wicked is upon them. But if a wicked man turns from his evil ways and obey Him then He shall forgive and forget all their wickedness.."
You did not give me direct answers to my direct questions and still continue to make salvation out to be a reward that is received based on the merits of one's performance/works.
*Once again, notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Apart from the blood of Christ and the imputed righteousness of God which is by faith (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) who would be described as such since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God? Only the righteous are seen as "does good."
*Also once again notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (verse 9). Apart from the blood of Christ and the imputed righteousness of God which is by faith, God see's man wrapped in his own filthy rags of righteousness. The unrighteous are seen as "does evil."
Q. What does it mean to "keep" the commandments of God? Q. Is keeping the commandments of God the basis or means by which we obtain eternal life or the demonstrative evidence that we know God and have received eternal life? Q. What will these works/deeds determine for believers and what will they determine for unbelievers at the judgment? Q. What is the difference between a "reward" and a "free gift?"
*Once again, notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Apart from the blood of Christ and the imputed righteousness of God which is by faith (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) who would be described as such since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God? Only the righteous are seen as "does good."
*Also once again notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (verse 9). Apart from the blood of Christ and the imputed righteousness of God which is by faith, God see's man wrapped in his own filthy rags of righteousness. The unrighteous are seen as "does evil."
Q. What does it mean to "keep" the commandments of God? Q. Is keeping the commandments of God the basis or means by which we obtain eternal life or the demonstrative evidence that we know God and have received eternal life? Q. What will these works/deeds determine for believers and what will they determine for unbelievers at the judgment? Q. What is the difference between a "reward" and a "free gift?"
Is the OT God different from the NT God
Is the OT righteousness different from the NT righteousness
Is the OT wickedness different form the NT wickedness
I don't think so, God is the same yesterday, today and forever more and hence:
Ezek 18:
20The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him.
21But if the wicked man turns from all the sins he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22None of the transgressions he has committed will be held against him. Because of the righteousness he has practiced, he will live. 23Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn't I prefer that he turn from his ways and live?
24But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness and sin he has committed, he will die.
25Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’
Hear now, O house of Israel: Is it My way that is unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
26If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, he will die for this. He will die because of the iniquity he has committed.
27But if a wicked man turns from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28Because he considered and turned from all the transgressions he had committed, he will surely live; he will not die.
29Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’
Are My ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, so that your iniquity will not become your downfall. 31Cast away from yourselves all the transgressions you have committed, and fashion for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel?
32For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!
Is the OT righteousness different from the NT righteousness
Is the OT wickedness different form the NT wickedness
I don't think so, God is the same yesterday, today and forever more and hence:
Ezek 18:
20The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him.
21But if the wicked man turns from all the sins he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22None of the transgressions he has committed will be held against him. Because of the righteousness he has practiced, he will live. 23Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn't I prefer that he turn from his ways and live?
24But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness and sin he has committed, he will die.
25Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’
Hear now, O house of Israel: Is it My way that is unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
26If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, he will die for this. He will die because of the iniquity he has committed.
27But if a wicked man turns from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28Because he considered and turned from all the transgressions he had committed, he will surely live; he will not die.
29Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’
Are My ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, so that your iniquity will not become your downfall. 31Cast away from yourselves all the transgressions you have committed, and fashion for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel?
32For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!
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I already covered this in post #75, 77 & 79. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/abide-in-christ.187233/page-4
Your obsession with "type 2 works salvation" and "losing salvation" is really getting old.
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
Your obsession with "type 2 works salvation" and "losing salvation" is really getting old.
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
