Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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Hebrews 4 New International Version (NIV)
A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God
4 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[a] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”[c] 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
John 5:1-18 New International Version (NIV)
The Healing at the Pool
5 Some time later, Jesus went up to Jerusalem for one of the Jewish festivals. 2 Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda[a] and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades. 3 Here a great number of disabled people used to lie—the blind, the lame, the paralyzed. [4] 5 One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, “Do you want to get well?”
7 “Sir,” the invalid replied, “I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me.”
8 Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” 9 At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10 and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.”
11 But he replied, “The man who made me well said to me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’ ”
12 So they asked him, “Who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk?”
13 The man who was healed had no idea who it was, for Jesus had slipped away into the crowd that was there.
14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” 15 The man went away and told the Jewish leaders that it was Jesus who had made him well.
Notice this passage-
“It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.”
Exodus 20:8-11
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you (shall not do any work), you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
*Picking up a mat was actually forbidden in the law because it was considered work and not rest.
A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God
4 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[a] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”[c] 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
John 5:1-18 New International Version (NIV)
The Healing at the Pool
5 Some time later, Jesus went up to Jerusalem for one of the Jewish festivals. 2 Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda[a] and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades. 3 Here a great number of disabled people used to lie—the blind, the lame, the paralyzed. [4] 5 One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, “Do you want to get well?”
7 “Sir,” the invalid replied, “I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me.”
8 Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” 9 At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10 and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.”
11 But he replied, “The man who made me well said to me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’ ”
12 So they asked him, “Who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk?”
13 The man who was healed had no idea who it was, for Jesus had slipped away into the crowd that was there.
14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” 15 The man went away and told the Jewish leaders that it was Jesus who had made him well.
Notice this passage-
“It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.”
Exodus 20:8-11
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you (shall not do any work), you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
*Picking up a mat was actually forbidden in the law because it was considered work and not rest.
1 John 2:3-6
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
Notice it didnt say (10) commandments, but commandments.
Some commandments in the new testament are-
Matthew 22:36-38
“Teacher, which is the great
commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment.
1 John 4:21
And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
John 15:14
You are my friends if you do what I command you
John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Romans 13:8-11 New International Version (NIV)
Love Fulfills the Law
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Love is the fulfillment of the law..
Love-
1 Corinthians 13:4-8
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
1 Corinthians 13:13
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Matthew 22:36-40
“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
Notice it didnt say (10) commandments, but commandments.
Some commandments in the new testament are-
Matthew 22:36-38
“Teacher, which is the great
commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment.
1 John 4:21
And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
John 15:14
You are my friends if you do what I command you
John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Romans 13:8-11 New International Version (NIV)
Love Fulfills the Law
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Love is the fulfillment of the law..
Love-
1 Corinthians 13:4-8
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
1 Corinthians 13:13
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Matthew 22:36-40
“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.
Yes we need to Obey commands such as loving God and others including our brothers and sisters..
Galatians 2:16
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
We are not justified by works of the law- one of them is sabbath keeping. Keeping the Sabbath actually has certain customs that needed to abide by
Exodus 35 New International Version (NIV)
Sabbath Regulations
35 Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, “These are the things the Lord has commanded you to do: 2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death. 3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”
Materials for the Tabernacle
4 Moses said to the whole Israelite community, “This is what the Lord has commanded: 5 From what you have, take an offering for the Lord. Everyone who is willing is to bring to the Lord an offering of gold, silver and bronze; 6 blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen; goat hair; 7 ram skins dyed red and another type of durable leather[a]; acacia wood; 8 olive oil for the light; spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense; 9 and onyx stones and other gems to be mounted on the ephod and breastpiece.
10 “All who are skilled among you are to come and make everything the Lord has commanded: 11 the tabernacle with its tent and its covering, clasps, frames, crossbars, posts and bases; 12 the ark with its poles and the atonement cover and the curtain that shields it; 13 the table with its poles and all its articles and the bread of the Presence; 14 the lampstand that is for light with its accessories, lamps and oil for the light; 15 the altar of incense with its poles, the anointing oil and the fragrant incense; the curtain for the doorway at the entrance to the tabernacle; 16 the altar of burnt offering with its bronze grating, its poles and all its utensils; the bronze basin with its stand; 17 the curtains of the courtyard with its posts and bases, and the curtain for the entrance to the courtyard; 18 the tent pegs for the tabernacle and for the courtyard, and their ropes; 19 the woven garments worn for ministering in the sanctuary—both the sacred garments for Aaron the priest and the garments for his sons when they serve as priests.”
20 Then the whole Israelite community withdrew from Moses’ presence, 21 and everyone who was willing and whose heart moved them came and brought an offering to the Lord for the work on the tent of meeting, for all its service, and for the sacred garments. 22 All who were willing, men and women alike, came and brought gold jewelry of all kinds: brooches, earrings, rings and ornaments. They all presented their gold as a wave offering to the Lord. 23 Everyone who had blue, purple or scarlet yarn or fine linen, or goat hair, ram skins dyed red or the other durable leather brought them. 24 Those presenting an offering of silver or bronze brought it as an offering to the Lord, and everyone who had acacia wood for any part of the work brought it. 25 Every skilled woman spun with her hands and brought what she had spun—blue, purple or scarlet yarn or fine linen. 26 And all the women who were willing and had the skill spun the goat hair. 27 The leaders brought onyx stones and other gems to be mounted on the ephod and breastpiece. 28 They also brought spices and olive oil for the light and for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense. 29 All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the Lord freewill offerings for all the work the Lord through Moses had commanded them to do.
So I want to say I do not agree with law keeping from the old testament. If I had to follow the sabbath I would have to follow all customs and rules associated with it. Then I would be keeping part of the old law.
So if I do not follow the old law I am not a works salvationist. Many people believe in following the old law but i am not in this group of people.
Galatians 2:16
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
We are not justified by works of the law- one of them is sabbath keeping. Keeping the Sabbath actually has certain customs that needed to abide by
Exodus 35 New International Version (NIV)
Sabbath Regulations
35 Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, “These are the things the Lord has commanded you to do: 2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death. 3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”
Materials for the Tabernacle
4 Moses said to the whole Israelite community, “This is what the Lord has commanded: 5 From what you have, take an offering for the Lord. Everyone who is willing is to bring to the Lord an offering of gold, silver and bronze; 6 blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen; goat hair; 7 ram skins dyed red and another type of durable leather[a]; acacia wood; 8 olive oil for the light; spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense; 9 and onyx stones and other gems to be mounted on the ephod and breastpiece.
10 “All who are skilled among you are to come and make everything the Lord has commanded: 11 the tabernacle with its tent and its covering, clasps, frames, crossbars, posts and bases; 12 the ark with its poles and the atonement cover and the curtain that shields it; 13 the table with its poles and all its articles and the bread of the Presence; 14 the lampstand that is for light with its accessories, lamps and oil for the light; 15 the altar of incense with its poles, the anointing oil and the fragrant incense; the curtain for the doorway at the entrance to the tabernacle; 16 the altar of burnt offering with its bronze grating, its poles and all its utensils; the bronze basin with its stand; 17 the curtains of the courtyard with its posts and bases, and the curtain for the entrance to the courtyard; 18 the tent pegs for the tabernacle and for the courtyard, and their ropes; 19 the woven garments worn for ministering in the sanctuary—both the sacred garments for Aaron the priest and the garments for his sons when they serve as priests.”
20 Then the whole Israelite community withdrew from Moses’ presence, 21 and everyone who was willing and whose heart moved them came and brought an offering to the Lord for the work on the tent of meeting, for all its service, and for the sacred garments. 22 All who were willing, men and women alike, came and brought gold jewelry of all kinds: brooches, earrings, rings and ornaments. They all presented their gold as a wave offering to the Lord. 23 Everyone who had blue, purple or scarlet yarn or fine linen, or goat hair, ram skins dyed red or the other durable leather brought them. 24 Those presenting an offering of silver or bronze brought it as an offering to the Lord, and everyone who had acacia wood for any part of the work brought it. 25 Every skilled woman spun with her hands and brought what she had spun—blue, purple or scarlet yarn or fine linen. 26 And all the women who were willing and had the skill spun the goat hair. 27 The leaders brought onyx stones and other gems to be mounted on the ephod and breastpiece. 28 They also brought spices and olive oil for the light and for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense. 29 All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the Lord freewill offerings for all the work the Lord through Moses had commanded them to do.
So I want to say I do not agree with law keeping from the old testament. If I had to follow the sabbath I would have to follow all customs and rules associated with it. Then I would be keeping part of the old law.
So if I do not follow the old law I am not a works salvationist. Many people believe in following the old law but i am not in this group of people.
Yap. You read Greek to your own confusion.
The entire bible is a requirement which can be summarized into one word, 'Love'. A one year old is righteous not because they have some understanding of Greek but because of love. The word is in you and not in a book, the gospel is but a mirror which reflects your deeds.
James 1:22Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves. 23For anyone who hears the word but does not carry it out is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror, 24and after observing himself goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.
True, why not? A righteous person can not practice wickedness and a wicked person can not practice righteousness otherwise these words would loose their meaning. However, the righteousness of the righteous is upon them and the wickedness of the wicked is upon them; meaning that the wicked man can still choose to change and practice righteousness and the righteous man can choose to practice wickedness. God doesn't cause people to choose what they choose and then come in the sidelines and say He desires all men to be saved.
"Him who justifies the ungodly", not "Him who justifies the godly". Who are the ungodly? is it not the whole world?
Like i said, all men are justified by one righteous act but not all men will be victorious in the end because men will fail to abide in Him.
One act of disobedience made us children of the devil but also one act of righteousness made us all the children of God. But if a wicked man turns away from his evil ways, then God is just to forgive them, the opposite is also true - means these things are not permanent conditions, depends with the person.
The entire bible is a requirement which can be summarized into one word, 'Love'. A one year old is righteous not because they have some understanding of Greek but because of love. The word is in you and not in a book, the gospel is but a mirror which reflects your deeds.
James 1:22Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves. 23For anyone who hears the word but does not carry it out is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror, 24and after observing himself goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.
True, why not? A righteous person can not practice wickedness and a wicked person can not practice righteousness otherwise these words would loose their meaning. However, the righteousness of the righteous is upon them and the wickedness of the wicked is upon them; meaning that the wicked man can still choose to change and practice righteousness and the righteous man can choose to practice wickedness. God doesn't cause people to choose what they choose and then come in the sidelines and say He desires all men to be saved.
"Him who justifies the ungodly", not "Him who justifies the godly". Who are the ungodly? is it not the whole world?
Like i said, all men are justified by one righteous act but not all men will be victorious in the end because men will fail to abide in Him.
One act of disobedience made us children of the devil but also one act of righteousness made us all the children of God. But if a wicked man turns away from his evil ways, then God is just to forgive them, the opposite is also true - means these things are not permanent conditions, depends with the person.
And i responded to you, pointing out how removed you are from what you quoted me, knowing very well what you believe in. I'm not going to mince my words; the kind of faith you believe in teaches and asks who ascends to heaven and who descends in hell. If i'm misrepresenting you then you need to lay it out clearly. Don't just come and quote me scriptures.
Yes we need to Obey commands such as loving God and others including our brothers and sisters..
Galatians 2:16
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
We are not justified by works of the law- of them is sabbath keeping. Keeping the Sabbath actually has certain customs that needed to abide by
Exodus 35 New International Version (NIV)
Sabbath Regulations
35 Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, “These are the things the Lord has commanded you to do: 2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death. 3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”
Materials for the Tabernacle
4 Moses said to the whole Israelite community, “This is what the Lord has commanded: 5 From what you have, take an offering for the Lord. Everyone who is willing is to bring to the Lord an offering of gold, silver and bronze; 6 blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen; goat hair; 7 ram skins dyed red and another type of durable leather[a]; acacia wood; 8 olive oil for the light; spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense; 9 and onyx stones and other gems to be mounted on the ephod and breastpiece.
10 “All who are skilled among you are to come and make everything the Lord has commanded: 11 the tabernacle with its tent and its covering, clasps, frames, crossbars, posts and bases; 12 the ark with its poles and the atonement cover and the curtain that shields it; 13 the table with its poles and all its articles and the bread of the Presence; 14 the lampstand that is for light with its accessories, lamps and oil for the light; 15 the altar of incense with its poles, the anointing oil and the fragrant incense; the curtain for the doorway at the entrance to the tabernacle; 16 the altar of burnt offering with its bronze grating, its poles and all its utensils; the bronze basin with its stand; 17 the curtains of the courtyard with its posts and bases, and the curtain for the entrance to the courtyard; 18 the tent pegs for the tabernacle and for the courtyard, and their ropes; 19 the woven garments worn for ministering in the sanctuary—both the sacred garments for Aaron the priest and the garments for his sons when they serve as priests.”
20 Then the whole Israelite community withdrew from Moses’ presence, 21 and everyone who was willing and whose heart moved them came and brought an offering to the Lord for the work on the tent of meeting, for all its service, and for the sacred garments. 22 All who were willing, men and women alike, came and brought gold jewelry of all kinds: brooches, earrings, rings and ornaments. They all presented their gold as a wave offering to the Lord. 23 Everyone who had blue, purple or scarlet yarn or fine linen, or goat hair, ram skins dyed red or the other durable leather brought them. 24 Those presenting an offering of silver or bronze brought it as an offering to the Lord, and everyone who had acacia wood for any part of the work brought it. 25 Every skilled woman spun with her hands and brought what she had spun—blue, purple or scarlet yarn or fine linen. 26 And all the women who were willing and had the skill spun the goat hair. 27 The leaders brought onyx stones and other gems to be mounted on the ephod and breastpiece. 28 They also brought spices and olive oil for the light and for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense. 29 All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the Lord freewill offerings for all the work the Lord through Moses had commanded them to do.
So I want to say I do not agree with law keeping from the old testament. If I had to follow the sabbath I would have to follow all customs and rules associated with it. Then I would be keeping part of the old law.
So if I do not follow the old law I am not a works salvationist. Many people believe in following the old law but i am not in this group of people. So if we have no works can we actually be a bible defined Christian?
So can a person go to heaven if he doesnt love God or his brothers or sisters?
Since no obedience would be needed according to OSAS.
Galatians 2:16
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
We are not justified by works of the law- of them is sabbath keeping. Keeping the Sabbath actually has certain customs that needed to abide by
Exodus 35 New International Version (NIV)
Sabbath Regulations
35 Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, “These are the things the Lord has commanded you to do: 2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death. 3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”
Materials for the Tabernacle
4 Moses said to the whole Israelite community, “This is what the Lord has commanded: 5 From what you have, take an offering for the Lord. Everyone who is willing is to bring to the Lord an offering of gold, silver and bronze; 6 blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen; goat hair; 7 ram skins dyed red and another type of durable leather[a]; acacia wood; 8 olive oil for the light; spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense; 9 and onyx stones and other gems to be mounted on the ephod and breastpiece.
10 “All who are skilled among you are to come and make everything the Lord has commanded: 11 the tabernacle with its tent and its covering, clasps, frames, crossbars, posts and bases; 12 the ark with its poles and the atonement cover and the curtain that shields it; 13 the table with its poles and all its articles and the bread of the Presence; 14 the lampstand that is for light with its accessories, lamps and oil for the light; 15 the altar of incense with its poles, the anointing oil and the fragrant incense; the curtain for the doorway at the entrance to the tabernacle; 16 the altar of burnt offering with its bronze grating, its poles and all its utensils; the bronze basin with its stand; 17 the curtains of the courtyard with its posts and bases, and the curtain for the entrance to the courtyard; 18 the tent pegs for the tabernacle and for the courtyard, and their ropes; 19 the woven garments worn for ministering in the sanctuary—both the sacred garments for Aaron the priest and the garments for his sons when they serve as priests.”
20 Then the whole Israelite community withdrew from Moses’ presence, 21 and everyone who was willing and whose heart moved them came and brought an offering to the Lord for the work on the tent of meeting, for all its service, and for the sacred garments. 22 All who were willing, men and women alike, came and brought gold jewelry of all kinds: brooches, earrings, rings and ornaments. They all presented their gold as a wave offering to the Lord. 23 Everyone who had blue, purple or scarlet yarn or fine linen, or goat hair, ram skins dyed red or the other durable leather brought them. 24 Those presenting an offering of silver or bronze brought it as an offering to the Lord, and everyone who had acacia wood for any part of the work brought it. 25 Every skilled woman spun with her hands and brought what she had spun—blue, purple or scarlet yarn or fine linen. 26 And all the women who were willing and had the skill spun the goat hair. 27 The leaders brought onyx stones and other gems to be mounted on the ephod and breastpiece. 28 They also brought spices and olive oil for the light and for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense. 29 All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the Lord freewill offerings for all the work the Lord through Moses had commanded them to do.
So I want to say I do not agree with law keeping from the old testament. If I had to follow the sabbath I would have to follow all customs and rules associated with it. Then I would be keeping part of the old law.
So if I do not follow the old law I am not a works salvationist. Many people believe in following the old law but i am not in this group of people. So if we have no works can we actually be a bible defined Christian?
So can a person go to heaven if he doesnt love God or his brothers or sisters?
Since no obedience would be needed according to OSAS.
You are saved by grace thru faith. You show faith by obeying what God requires you to do.
During the dispensation of the law, you exhibit faith by "obeying the law", all the Jews have to obey the law. It is true that all the saints of past ages were saved through the merits of Christ's shed blood, but not through their faith in that shed blood.
Those of past ages were expected to believe only what God had thus far revealed, or what He had revealed to them. In other words, they were saved simply because they trusted God and believed what He said. The full plan of salvation has since been unfolded, but the Scriptures make it crystal clear that these believers were saved without even understanding that Christ would die for them.
When God says, "Repent and be baptized for the remission. of sins," what will faith do? Just one thing: repent and be baptized. We know that oceans of water cannot wash away one sin, yet when John the Baptist and Peter preached repentance and baptism for remission not one of their hearers would have interpreted their words to mean: "Trust in the death of Christ for salvation."
Indeed, when God required water baptism for salvation the only way to manifest faith was to be baptized, and those who refused to do so were condemned for their unbelief:
"But the Pharisees and lawyers REJECTED THE COUNSEL OF GOD AGAINST THEMSELVES, BEING NOT BAPTIZIED OF HIM" (Luke 7:30).
But when God says, "BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom. 3:21); "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5); "Being Justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24); "In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7); "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tit. 3:5); "Not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9) -
When God now says this, what will faith do? Faith will say, "This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace."
That is obedience to God, and that is how one is saved NOW.
During the dispensation of the law, you exhibit faith by "obeying the law", all the Jews have to obey the law. It is true that all the saints of past ages were saved through the merits of Christ's shed blood, but not through their faith in that shed blood.
Those of past ages were expected to believe only what God had thus far revealed, or what He had revealed to them. In other words, they were saved simply because they trusted God and believed what He said. The full plan of salvation has since been unfolded, but the Scriptures make it crystal clear that these believers were saved without even understanding that Christ would die for them.
When God says, "Repent and be baptized for the remission. of sins," what will faith do? Just one thing: repent and be baptized. We know that oceans of water cannot wash away one sin, yet when John the Baptist and Peter preached repentance and baptism for remission not one of their hearers would have interpreted their words to mean: "Trust in the death of Christ for salvation."
Indeed, when God required water baptism for salvation the only way to manifest faith was to be baptized, and those who refused to do so were condemned for their unbelief:
"But the Pharisees and lawyers REJECTED THE COUNSEL OF GOD AGAINST THEMSELVES, BEING NOT BAPTIZIED OF HIM" (Luke 7:30).
But when God says, "BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom. 3:21); "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5); "Being Justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24); "In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7); "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tit. 3:5); "Not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9) -
When God now says this, what will faith do? Faith will say, "This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace."
That is obedience to God, and that is how one is saved NOW.
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When we become born again the spirit actually works in us to help us live according to the will of God, but the flesh is still weak, because we are also told to watch and pray we will resist temptation, the spirit is willing and the flesh weak. If you dont want to sin again when you get the holy spirit, why does it say you need to "pray". Because if a person automatically wanted to do everything right when they received the spirit, there would be no need to pray or read the bible.
1 John 3:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot "go on sinning", because they have been born of God.
*This doesn't mean a person cant sin again, because they we would be sinless and I haven't surely seen that in my own life.
Romans 8:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Philippians 2:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
-God "works in" us to help us fulfill his good purpose.
Then it says to male every "effort"
2 Peter 1:5-8 New International Version (NIV)
5 For this very reason, (make every effort) to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 4:3-6 New International Version (NIV)
3 Make (every effort) to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Warning and Encouragement
14 Make (every effort) to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Luke 13:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 “Make (every effort) to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
It seems like when I read these scriptures some talk about God working in us to fulfill his purpose and not continuing to sin because of Gods seed after we get born again and then making every effort to enter the narrow door and live according to the word.
So in conclusion its looks like God and every effort are involved relating to salvation. It says if we dont make every effort to be holy we wont see the Lord, so how can you get salvation without being holy.
1 John 3:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot "go on sinning", because they have been born of God.
*This doesn't mean a person cant sin again, because they we would be sinless and I haven't surely seen that in my own life.
Romans 8:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Philippians 2:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
-God "works in" us to help us fulfill his good purpose.
Then it says to male every "effort"
2 Peter 1:5-8 New International Version (NIV)
5 For this very reason, (make every effort) to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 4:3-6 New International Version (NIV)
3 Make (every effort) to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Warning and Encouragement
14 Make (every effort) to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Luke 13:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 “Make (every effort) to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
It seems like when I read these scriptures some talk about God working in us to fulfill his purpose and not continuing to sin because of Gods seed after we get born again and then making every effort to enter the narrow door and live according to the word.
So in conclusion its looks like God and every effort are involved relating to salvation. It says if we dont make every effort to be holy we wont see the Lord, so how can you get salvation without being holy.
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Guojing of course salvation is a gift. And doing works without being born again would be pointless because you cant receive salvation first without knowing Jesus first. We are saved by grace through faith, but when the spirit comes inside us we cannot continue sinning because we are born of God, but that doesn't mean we are going to be perfect. But we are also told to be holy and to also make every effort to enter the narrow door.
If the holy spirit did all the work in you, so you couldn't ever sin again then why are we told to watch and pray we will resist temptation. If we dont want to sin anymore because of the holy spirit, then why would we be asked to pray?
If the holy spirit did all the work to make us holy, then why are we told to make every effort to be holy.
If eternal life was automatically granted why would we be told to make every effort to enter the narrow door.
Christ is involved of course he is, there is no getting salvation without him but it also says "effort is involved".
If the holy spirit did all the work in you, so you couldn't ever sin again then why are we told to watch and pray we will resist temptation. If we dont want to sin anymore because of the holy spirit, then why would we be asked to pray?
If the holy spirit did all the work to make us holy, then why are we told to make every effort to be holy.
If eternal life was automatically granted why would we be told to make every effort to enter the narrow door.
Christ is involved of course he is, there is no getting salvation without him but it also says "effort is involved".
In the first place, it was not our individual sins that cause us to be separated from God. It was Adam's sin that made God reject all of us automatically.
As Romans 5:12-19 clearly explained, God provided the only way where "He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:26). That is accomplish by Jesus's act of obedience towards God by going all the way to the cross.
When we accept Jesus and believe in his death burial and resurrection, God credited the same righteousness of Jesus to all of us who do so. So eternal life is not automatically granted, but only to those who receive his finished work (Romans 5:17).
As Romans 5:12-19 clearly explained, God provided the only way where "He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:26). That is accomplish by Jesus's act of obedience towards God by going all the way to the cross.
When we accept Jesus and believe in his death burial and resurrection, God credited the same righteousness of Jesus to all of us who do so. So eternal life is not automatically granted, but only to those who receive his finished work (Romans 5:17).
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Abiding in him-
1 John 3:24
Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.
John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
John 15:6
If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
2 John 1:9
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1 John 3:24
Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.
John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
John 15:6
If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
2 John 1:9
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
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Romans 5:17 New International Version (NIV)
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
*Where does it mention any "finished work" here?
I cant find the words "finished work".
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
*Where does it mention any "finished work" here?
I cant find the words "finished work".