Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Pilgrimshope]

Sure. So if He who has begun a good work in you will continue it until the day of Jesus Christ, how can one be separated from being in Christ?

Some here suggest that one can be unborn from above,separated from the love of God in Christ, and new creations can be de-created. Where is this found in scripture? How is eternal life eternal if it can be lost?

“Sure. So if He who has begun a good work in you will continue it until the day of Jesus Christ, how can one be separated from being in Christ?”

when we refuse to accept what he said because we don’t believe him. Like this

The thing is brother I can accept what Jesus the Lord of all creation taught mankind to believe watch you can’t accept what he said

““I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

( we don’t bear fruit we are removed from Christ the living vine )


You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. ( they listened to him and bekieved )

Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-6‬ ‭NIV‬‬

It’s as if Jesus never said anything about these things we talk about but then one person says look what Jesus said the other says “ that doesn’t apply “

Brother I’m confident that youninderrrsnd what Jesus taught his disciples who believes in him like above there

If the gardener sees a corrupt diseased branch on a vine that’s growing in the vine , it is removed so the disease doesn’t spread to the other branches and disease the fruit at harvest

jesus is the vine , we are the branches we can be removed and will be if we don’t start taking it seriously and hesring what he actually said so we can believe and bear fruit

I’m willing to believe what Jesus is saying to believe even though it pushes me to change my ways and act in his . I still believe what he said is how it is


not willing to pretend Jesus didn’t teach what he taught or his apostles didn’t teach ebat they taught I believe that’s a path to destruction firmly

the reason is that its repeated in every book of the Bible. Prophets Jesus and apostles they all explain we need to repent and obey the gospel so we don’t end up in this group

“He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. “
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:8-10‬ ‭NIV‬‬

I can’t grasp how warnings like this don’t break through the hypergracer wall it forces people to openly reject what God is teaching believers to believe.
That new age grace doctrine is a huge mystery to me I sort of am a believer of the Bible’s version of gods grace found in the gospel he preached and sent to e wry one to believe

So when we read clear plain scripture like this

“If we willingly keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Anyone who rejected the law of Moses ( ot ) died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant( nt ) that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-

It’s true it’s just a matter of if we are going to accept it or reject it based on our own thinking . this isn’t pleasant to hear but once a person believes what is there it actually causes us to change and get stronger and start moving and acting like he’s trying to tell us to

It’s really a plain thing in scripture yes if is Christian believes and then later turns away they aren’t going to be saved . The issue in the whole thread is no one’s actually saved until Jesus comes with salvstion at judgement day

we have a sure word of promise that we shall be saved but it’s according to his words of promise not what people make up

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What happens if you DON'T confess them? Do you lose your eternal salvation?

MM

You wont accept any scripture it’s hard to talk about the Bible with you.

This is the difference in a sinner who doesn’t confess and repent and one who does

“When I kept silence, my bones waxed old Through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: My moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.

I acknowledged my sin unto thee, And mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; And thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: Surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭32:3-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods children aren’t okay with hiding sin and trying to preserve it in thier life when they realize they have sinned it bothers them grieves thoer hesrt and that’s why they confess they have a holy spirit that’s not okay with sin

thats the reason they confess they actually have been born of God and he’s with them causing them to change…

Im not sure who is going to argue with confessing sin to God being how plain it is and the promise it holds

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

whats your point ? Christ is about removing sin not okaying it all the things we don’t confess we still have to answer for we could confess and repent now and have it remitted and never brought against us through Christs doctrine of mercy



Yes when you confess your sins it’s important and a godly thing to do

 

[Musicmaster]

You wont accept any scripture it’s hard to talk about the Bible with you.

This is the difference in a sinner who doesn’t confess and repent and one who does

“When I kept silence, my bones waxed old Through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: My moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.

I acknowledged my sin unto thee, And mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; And thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: Surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭32:3-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods children aren’t okay with hiding sin and trying to preserve it in thier life when they realize they have sinned it bothers them grieves thoer hesrt and that’s why they confess they have a holy spirit that’s not okay with sin

thats the reason they confess they actually have been born of God and he’s with them causing them to change…

Im not sure who is going to argue with confessing sin to God being how plain it is and the promise it holds

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

whats your point ? Christ is about removing sin not okaying it all the things we don’t confess we still have to answer for we could confess and repent now and have it remitted and never brought against us through Christs doctrine of mercy



Yes when you confess your sins it’s important and a godly thing to do

The problem is in your failure to rightly divide the word of truth. You act so though ALL of scripture to TO us.

MM

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The problem is in your failure to rightly divide the word of truth. You act so though ALL of scripture to TO us.

MM

Yea the failure to ignore the scripture that I don’t already agree with ….. lol that’s my downfall

God says

“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the world said

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God always speaks the truth the other things are always a lie

If you want to know the truth go to him and hear

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭

ashen youmhypergracers talk about “ dividing the word “ it means ignore everything that doesn’t seem unconditional and just say grace “


I would never follow that math

 

[Pilgrimshope]

OK, then the Devil did all this to Jesus to help Him prove He couldn't possibly fall?!?

It was Jesus showing us how to overcome temptation sticking to the sword of the spirit that parries satans lies

 

[Musicmaster]

Yea the failure to ignore the scripture that I don’t already agree with ….. lol that’s my downfall

God says

“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the world said

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God always speaks the truth the other things are always a lie

If you want to know the truth go to him and hear

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭

ashen youmhypergracers talk about “ dividing the word “ it means ignore everything that doesn’t seem unconditional and just say grace “


I would never follow that math

You still don't get it, after all that was pointed out to you. Your meaningless accusations are just that...meaningless.

MM

 

[Cameron143]

“Sure. So if He who has begun a good work in you will continue it until the day of Jesus Christ, how can one be separated from being in Christ?”

when we refuse to accept what he said because we don’t believe him. Like this

The thing is brother I can accept what Jesus the Lord of all creation taught mankind to believe watch you can’t accept what he said

““I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

( we don’t bear fruit we are removed from Christ the living vine )


You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. ( they listened to him and bekieved )

Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-6‬ ‭NIV‬‬

It’s as if Jesus never said anything about these things we talk about but then one person says look what Jesus said the other says “ that doesn’t apply “

Brother I’m confident that youninderrrsnd what Jesus taught his disciples who believes in him like above there

If the gardener sees a corrupt diseased branch on a vine that’s growing in the vine , it is removed so the disease doesn’t spread to the other branches and disease the fruit at harvest

jesus is the vine , we are the branches we can be removed and will be if we don’t start taking it seriously and hesring what he actually said so we can believe and bear fruit

I’m willing to believe what Jesus is saying to believe even though it pushes me to change my ways and act in his . I still believe what he said is how it is


not willing to pretend Jesus didn’t teach what he taught or his apostles didn’t teach ebat they taught I believe that’s a path to destruction firmly

the reason is that its repeated in every book of the Bible. Prophets Jesus and apostles they all explain we need to repent and obey the gospel so we don’t end up in this group

“He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. “
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:8-10‬ ‭NIV‬‬

I can’t grasp how warnings like this don’t break through the hypergracer wall it forces people to openly reject what God is teaching believers to believe.
That new age grace doctrine is a huge mystery to me I sort of am a believer of the Bible’s version of gods grace found in the gospel he preached and sent to e wry one to believe

So when we read clear plain scripture like this

“If we willingly keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Anyone who rejected the law of Moses ( ot ) died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant( nt ) that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-

It’s true it’s just a matter of if we are going to accept it or reject it based on our own thinking . this isn’t pleasant to hear but once a person believes what is there it actually causes us to change and get stronger and start moving and acting like he’s trying to tell us to

It’s really a plain thing in scripture yes if is Christian believes and then later turns away they aren’t going to be saved . The issue in the whole thread is no one’s actually saved until Jesus comes with salvstion at judgement day

we have a sure word of promise that we shall be saved but it’s according to his words of promise not what people make up

I agree with everything Jesus and the disciples wrote. So...who produces fruit? Do we? Does God?
Of course every branch that doesn't bear fruit is cut off. The lack of fruit is evidence of the inactivity of God. What branch ever produced fruit that wasn't attached to the vine? When branches don't produce fruit it is because they are only outwardly attached to the vine, but inwardly are not getting the life of the vine.
So, too, it is with people. Many attach themselves to Christ and the church, but because they have not truly been saved and in a real and vital relationship with Christ, the life of Christ does not flow into them. This is the reason they do not bear fruit.

The idea that the individual bears the fruit is anathema to grace. It says in effect that God saved us but we must keep ourselves saved. It's not that we don't have responsibilities as Christians; we do. But producing fruit is not among our responsibilities.

So what are our responsibilities? We are to work out our salvation because God is willing and doing in us of His good pleasure. We are to exercise spiritual disciplines that bring us into the presence of God wherein we are changed.

Notice in Galatians 5:22-23, it is referred to as the fruit of the Spirit. This is fruit that is produced by the Spirit Himself. It is not us disciplining ourselves to be loving and peaceful and so forth. It is in actuality Christ Himself living in us and performing His love and His peace in us.

Many Christians believe that their efforts to discipline themselves is what God has called us to. He has not. He has called us to be holy as He is holy and to be conformed the image of His Son. No human can produce this or experience it short of Christ living in them.

If you haven't experienced what I am sharing with you, it's as simple as asking for it and truly getting into the presence of God. It is life transforming.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You still don't get it, after all that was pointed out to you. Your meaningless accusations are just that...meaningless.

MM

There aren’t any accusations lol you are now a martyr being persecuted ? 😂

 

[Musicmaster]

There aren’t any accusations lol you are now a martyr being persecuted ? 😂

So, your claims that I wasn't using scripture, and that I avoid scripture, et al, those weren't accusations?

Perhaps you should get some help by asking some of your friends to explain the obvious to you. I don't have time for foolish antics.

MM

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree with everything Jesus and the disciples wrote. So...who produces fruit? Do we? Does God?
Of course every branch that doesn't bear fruit is cut off. The lack of fruit is evidence of the inactivity of God. What branch ever produced fruit that wasn't attached to the vine? When branches don't produce fruit it is because they are only outwardly attached to the vine, but inwardly are not getting the life of the vine.
So, too, it is with people. Many attach themselves to Christ and the church, but because they have not truly been saved and in a real and vital relationship with Christ, the life of Christ does not flow into them. This is the reason they do not bear fruit.

The idea that the individual bears the fruit is anathema to grace. It says in effect that God saved us but we must keep ourselves saved. It's not that we don't have responsibilities as Christians; we do. But producing fruit is not among our responsibilities.

So what are our responsibilities? We are to work out our salvation because God is willing and doing in us of His good pleasure. We are to exercise spiritual disciplines that bring us into the presence of God wherein we are changed.

Notice in Galatians 5:22-23, it is referred to as the fruit of the Spirit. This is fruit that is produced by the Spirit Himself. It is not us disciplining ourselves to be loving and peaceful and so forth. It is in actuality Christ Himself living in us and performing His love and His peace in us.

Many Christians believe that their efforts to discipline themselves is what God has called us to. He has not. He has called us to be holy as He is holy and to be conformed the image of His Son. No human can produce this or experience it short of Christ living in them.

If you haven't experienced what I am sharing with you, it's as simple as asking for it and truly getting into the presence of God. It is life transforming.

“agree with everything Jesus and the disciples wrote. So”

excellent , my arguments are full of things they said and me agreeing so I must have misunderstood everything
you’ve said in this discussion brother I’m glad you agree with the actual doctrine that Jesus spoke and the apostles wrote down and witnessed to everyone for salvation

So you agree with this ?

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Of course every branch that doesn't bear fruit is cut off. The lack of fruit is evidence of the inactivity of God. “

so god failed to act and save those branches and he’s blaming them and destroying them for it ?

“What branch ever produced fruit that wasn't attached to the vine?”

😂it says the branches were in him and then didn’t bear fruit and then we’re cut off because they didn’t abide in his doctrine like he repeats and they repeat

and you agree with this also right
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬
amen agreed

that if a believer continues in the teachings and doctrine of Christ then they willKnow the truth and the truth will set them free ?

You believe that ?

Like John did ?

“Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God;

whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them.”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭NIV‬‬

what would you say to John ? That those who don’t continue in Jesus doctrine were never saved and those who do continue in his doctrine were always saved ?

Or “ you already knew the truth you didn’t need to continue in his doctrine like he said and then be set free by that truth you find “

You’re saying these are things you believe carmeron ?

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭

you believe we’re going to be held accountable for what we do whether good or bad at judgement ?

brother I’m not sure you and I are defining “ believe “ the same way. You seem to be saying “ I believe it all “ in order to explain a lot of reasoning why not to believe those things

What I’m saying is we’re meant to hear the things they taught and believe those things are true and then because we believe we’re of course naturally going to act that’s what man does that’s what faith is

“ I believe the fruit is good to eat …..I’ll eat it “ ….
I believe the fruit is certain death …. I’ll avoid it ….

if my belief is correct my actions will also be correct is the idea if I believe I don’t need to do anything as a poised to I believe I need to do what Jesus told us we need to do it changes the shape of our faith we need to let scripture be what’s true and let that change us not the other way around

“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, ( that’s why we need to believe what’s really there in the gospel because we don’t already know it ) that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you believe the scriptures brother then we believe the exact same things maybe you haven’t heard alot of the stuff I’m repeating to you or something I’m not sure though that you are accepting and believing then lol what I’m saying is simple

You are saying “God does it God does good for us god does it all we don’t need to do anything that he said we need to do “

The bibles says God made you able to do what you are supposed to do by the power of Christ in you

“I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭4:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Is pul stealing glory from God by saying God gave him strength to do what he was supposed to do ?

brother if you believe all that Jesus and his apostles taught we must not be understanding one another

“Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Im sure we both agree with this then
That’s how we can be saved and the word that can save us is the gospel

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In other words

“For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For, “All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord endures forever.” And this is the word of the gospel that was preached to you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:23-25‬ ‭NIV‬‬


“Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When we have to face judgement the things he said will save us if we don’t reject them

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So, your claims that I wasn't using scripture, and that I avoid scripture, et al, those weren't accusations?

Perhaps you should get some help by asking some of your friends to explain the obvious to you. I don't have time for foolish antics.

MM

Lol comon man this all began because I showed you that oauo was absolutely preaching the gospel of the kingdom with scripture .

Your reply was that the English language is just weak and I don’t get it ….the no asked you if there’s any version of the Bible you’ll accept and you said “ no actually the English language has made it so they all have “some truth”

which again means any time you don’t agree , you explain the Bible’s wrong all the translators were wrong and didn’t understand how to translate Greek into English …..

all that is is a way to avoid what’s there like you’ve done repeatedly and now all the sudden you are being attacked because I noticed you won’t accept scripture so I need to go back now and quote the whole conversation hahaha anyone can read the conversation my friend .

You are in no way a martyr being attacked lol but are very entertaining to my old bones

 

[Tall_Timbers]

I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.

Hope you're good enough to make it to heaven then. I've never met anyone who was/is good enough. As for me I'll continue to rely on the Blood of Jesus.

 

[Musicmaster]

Lol comon man this all began because I showed you that oauo was absolutely preaching the gospel of the kingdom with scripture .

Your reply was that the English language is just weak and I don’t get it ….the no asked you if there’s any version of the Bible you’ll accept and you said “ no actually the English language has made it so they all have “some truth”

which again means any time you don’t agree , you explain the Bible’s wrong all the translators were wrong and didn’t understand how to translate Greek into English …..

all that is is a way to avoid what’s there like you’ve done repeatedly and now all the sudden you are being attacked because I noticed you won’t accept scripture so I need to go back now and quote the whole conversation hahaha anyone can read the conversation my friend .

You are in no way a martyr being attacked lol but are very entertaining to my old bones

Perhaps you should speak with an actual translator so that he or she can inform you that English translations of Greek and Hebrew are difficult at best, and that the chosen English word can be grossly misleading because of these difficulties, which weakens the strength of English translations.

If you don't want to use the plethora of tools for delving into the original languages, then that's your problem, just as your not wanting to rightly divide the word of truth. You apply purely subjective rule for dividing and interpretation, and, again, that's your problem, not mine or anyone else.

MM

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Sure. So if He who has begun a good work in you will continue it until the day of Jesus Christ, how can one be separated from being in Christ?

Some here suggest that one can be unborn from above,separated from the love of God in Christ, and new creations can be de-created. Where is this found in scripture? How is eternal life eternal if it can be lost?

Gods working with us we have a role in it we have to partake and obey him his work doesn’t nullify that it brings us to it

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you( Gods working in believers to change thier corrupt Will to keep sinning and obey him ) both to will and to do of his good pleasure. ( that’s our role he’s repairing us so we can do his Will and be saved )

Do all things ( as opposed to don’t think your supposed to obey or do anything your already saved gods doing it ) without murmurings and disputings: that ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the position that Gods doing to do it for us and so therefore we don’t need to do anything is not correct Gods work in us is when we start hearing and believing the gospel the word is how he works in us if we refuse it it’s not a good thing

Gods work is to heal sinners and make them righteous folks who do what they are meant to do and don’t serve the devils Will anymore

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Perhaps you should speak with an actual translator so that he or she can inform you that English translations of Greek and Hebrew are difficult at best, and that the chosen English word can be grossly misleading because of these difficulties, which weakens the strength of English translations.

If you don't want to use the plethora of tools for delving into the original languages, then that's your problem, just as your not wanting to rightly divide the word of truth. You apply purely subjective rule for dividing and interpretation, and, again, that's your problem, not mine or anyone else.

MM

I trust the translators that translated the Bible and the thousands who have double checked everything it’s just a worldly reason to reject it I already understand the attempt

 

[rogerg]

Hebrews 6 gives, not one, but 5 descriptions of these people who “FELL AWAY” and all of them are descriptions of someone who is a Christian. Besides, if they NEVER WERE Christian’s in the first place—where did they FALL FROM?? FELL AWAY FROM WHAT??? FELL AWAY from not being a Christian?? What did they FALL FROM?? Are you going to MAJE UP some more nonBiblical rhetoric for us?

Paul presented those verses as hypothetical scenarios, not to suggest that the saved could fall away, but to affirm and give assurances that they could not. This is clarified in verses 6:6 and 6:9. Verse 6:6 indicates that if someone saved were somehow able to fall away, it would then render the crucifixion of Christ ineffective, implying that human actions could override and be more powerful than those of Christ - even of God. In verse 9, Paul reinforces this by stating "better things of you, and things that accompany salvation," indicating that the cautions of verses 4 - 6 are not applicable to anyone saved. By stating, "though we thus speak," he emphasizes his purpose was to edify and give assurance of the unchangeable and immutable nature of their salvation - given that it was from and by God and not of themselves.

[Heb 6:6 KJV] 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

[Heb 6:9 KJV] 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

 

[Cameron143]

“agree with everything Jesus and the disciples wrote. So”

excellent , my arguments are full of things they said and me agreeing so I must have misunderstood everything
you’ve said in this discussion brother I’m glad you agree with the actual doctrine that Jesus spoke and the apostles wrote down and witnessed to everyone for salvation

So you agree with this ?

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Of course every branch that doesn't bear fruit is cut off. The lack of fruit is evidence of the inactivity of God. “

so god failed to act and save those branches and he’s blaming them and destroying them for it ?

“What branch ever produced fruit that wasn't attached to the vine?”

😂it says the branches were in him and then didn’t bear fruit and then we’re cut off because they didn’t abide in his doctrine like he repeats and they repeat

and you agree with this also right
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬
amen agreed

that if a believer continues in the teachings and doctrine of Christ then they willKnow the truth and the truth will set them free ?

You believe that ?

Like John did ?

“Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God;

whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them.”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭NIV‬‬

what would you say to John ? That those who don’t continue in Jesus doctrine were never saved and those who do continue in his doctrine were always saved ?

Or “ you already knew the truth you didn’t need to continue in his doctrine like he said and then be set free by that truth you find “

You’re saying these are things you believe carmeron ?

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭

you believe we’re going to be held accountable for what we do whether good or bad at judgement ?

brother I’m not sure you and I are defining “ believe “ the same way. You seem to be saying “ I believe it all “ in order to explain a lot of reasoning why not to believe those things

What I’m saying is we’re meant to hear the things they taught and believe those things are true and then because we believe we’re of course naturally going to act that’s what man does that’s what faith is

“ I believe the fruit is good to eat …..I’ll eat it “ ….
I believe the fruit is certain death …. I’ll avoid it ….

if my belief is correct my actions will also be correct is the idea if I believe I don’t need to do anything as a poised to I believe I need to do what Jesus told us we need to do it changes the shape of our faith we need to let scripture be what’s true and let that change us not the other way around

“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, ( that’s why we need to believe what’s really there in the gospel because we don’t already know it ) that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you believe the scriptures brother then we believe the exact same things maybe you haven’t heard alot of the stuff I’m repeating to you or something I’m not sure though that you are accepting and believing then lol what I’m saying is simple

You are saying “God does it God does good for us god does it all we don’t need to do anything that he said we need to do “

The bibles says God made you able to do what you are supposed to do by the power of Christ in you

“I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭4:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Is pul stealing glory from God by saying God gave him strength to do what he was supposed to do ?

brother if you believe all that Jesus and his apostles taught we must not be understanding one another

“Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Im sure we both agree with this then
That’s how we can be saved and the word that can save us is the gospel

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In other words

“For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For, “All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord endures forever.” And this is the word of the gospel that was preached to you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:23-25‬ ‭NIV‬‬


“Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When we have to face judgement the things he said will save us if we don’t reject them

Repentance...everyone needs to. But it is a godly sorrow that works repentance unto salvation...2 Corinthians 7:10. This is part of the work of the Spirit that brings about true salvation. It's source is God, not man.

God blaming branches...God is never to blame for man's failures. Man fits Himself for destruction. The point of my statement was that fruit is produced by God, and produces it in all His own. There is no such thing as a Christian without fruit. The lack of fruit is evidence of the lack of a true and vital relationship with Christ.
Many people associated themselves with Jesus during His earthly ministry, but most stopped following Him. He arrived in Jerusalem to a rousing crowd, but most later assented to His crucifixion. The same is true today. Many associate themselves with the church only to fall away. But some remain. Why? Because they are spiritual giants? No, but because they are truly connected to Christ who will never leave them or forsake them. He has set His affection upon them and will not let them go. Those who leave have no such connection or promise. He never knew them.

Jesus said to those Jews who believed on Him...the passage itself limits the audience. It is only to those who believed on Him. What follows is for them alone. Those who believe do keep his commandments. They are set free.
You seem to think that anyone who associates themselves to Christ and the church is a believer. This simply has never been true. Those who fall away cannot have been saved. Otherwise, Jesus has lied.

 

[Cameron143]

Gods working with us we have a role in it we have to partake and obey him his work doesn’t nullify that it brings us to it

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you( Gods working in believers to change thier corrupt Will to keep sinning and obey him ) both to will and to do of his good pleasure. ( that’s our role he’s repairing us so we can do his Will and be saved )

Do all things ( as opposed to don’t think your supposed to obey or do anything your already saved gods doing it ) without murmurings and disputings: that ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the position that Gods doing to do it for us and so therefore we don’t need to do anything is not correct Gods work in us is when we start hearing and believing the gospel the word is how he works in us if we refuse it it’s not a good thing

Gods work is to heal sinners and make them righteous folks who do what they are meant to do and don’t serve the devils Will anymore

Sure. Those He works in this always happens. Those He isn't working in never come to do this.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Hope you're good enough to make it to heaven then. I've never met anyone who was/is good enough. As for me I'll continue to rely on the Blood of Jesus.

“If we willfully keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-29‬ ‭NIV‬‬

It’s Good that you trust in Jesus death and resurrection shedding his blood for us that’s where salvation is paid for everyone needs to trust that he did that for us

But it shouldnt be the reason we reject everything else jesus said before he died because he was promising salvation in those words saying whoever believes would be saved

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Repentance...everyone needs to. But it is a godly sorrow that works repentance unto salvation...2 Corinthians 7:10. This is part of the work of the Spirit that brings about true salvation. It's source is God, not man.

God blaming branches...God is never to blame for man's failures. Man fits Himself for destruction. The point of my statement was that fruit is produced by God, and produces it in all His own. There is no such thing as a Christian without fruit. The lack of fruit is evidence of the lack of a true and vital relationship with Christ.
Many people associated themselves with Jesus during His earthly ministry, but most stopped following Him. He arrived in Jerusalem to a rousing crowd, but most later assented to His crucifixion. The same is true today. Many associate themselves with the church only to fall away. But some remain. Why? Because they are spiritual giants? No, but because they are truly connected to Christ who will never leave them or forsake them. He has set His affection upon them and will not let them go. Those who leave have no such connection or promise. He never knew them.

Jesus said to those Jews who believed on Him...the passage itself limits the audience. It is only to those who believed on Him. What follows is for them alone. Those who believe do keep his commandments. They are set free.
You seem to think that anyone who associates themselves to Christ and the church is a believer. This simply has never been true. Those who fall away cannot have been saved. Otherwise, Jesus has lied.

“Repentance...everyone needs to. But it is a godly sorrow that works repentance unto salvation...2 Corinthians 7:10. This is part of the work of the Spirit that brings about true salvation. Its source is God, not man.”

brother read what happens before . That’s how you know what he’s saying . A man had sinned in the church and the others were approving of him and accepting it celebrating even.

paul heard about it and was infuriated with the whole assembly and so he wrote them a scathing letter of rebuke saying things like this

“It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. ……hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit might be saved on the day of the Lord.

Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? ……“Expel the wicked person from among you.””
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭5:1-3, 5-6, 12-13‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters.

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:7-10‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price.

Therefore honor God with your body and spirit.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:18-20‬ ‭

That’s what Paul’s talking about here god doesn’t just do it we have to accept his word and respond look now in his second letter after the harsh first one

“Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance.

For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. ( they were sorry because our rebuked then so harshly with the word of God reminding them of they didn’t straighten up they would lose thier inheritance in Gods kingdom he really lit into them good because they already knew better )

See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭7:8-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

brother your locked into this idea about god doing things differently than his doctrine declares so you read this one scripture and then explained a lot that isn’t what the verse is saying

pauls letter of rebuke with doctrine is what caused thier sorrow because he told them “ you guys have sinned just like him your celebrating this and accepting this terrible sexual sin and no one’s saying anything you should have already cast this guy out , hand him over to Satan to destroy the Will of his flesh so he can be saved …

later in the second letter Paul hears that they have repented and everyone now understands that kind of behavior is not acceptable in Christ he goes through alot of thier behaviors rebuking them and

he’s explaining “ being made aware of and sorrow you feel for your sin leads you to repentance it’s a godly manner a godly reason to be sorrowful is because we have sinned . If we’re okay with it and believe we’re not called to obey and there’s no consequence for sin ….there’s no reason to repent

godly sorrow is when a Christian realizes they are sinning or have sinned and it makes them sorrowful or ashamed and fearful . We’re supposed to follow tbat inner compass that is in our heart. It will lead to repentance if we don’t ignore his words

had they received oauls letter and then lol everyone argued about it and decided “ we’re already saved man oaul doesn’t get it we can’t lose our inheritance god won’t do that to heck with Paul and his words

they never would have been made sorry or of Paul had written and said “ I jeers about you guys and all that sin , it’s okay God will magically force you to repent later your all saved no worries make sure to live that sinner by the way nonone say anything about what’s Jew doing he belienves in tje cross everyone’s saved “-

then again nonone would repent they’d be thinking “ ot doesn’t matter what I do I have no choice no control over my own actions I can’t possibly do anything different I’m saved no worries “

what we believe matters God works through his word that’s the only way it happens the gospel is where we receive his spirit from the word he sent to be preached in the world all
Of it comes from the word

If we begin to believe him and what they taught it’s going to change everything but truly and without a doubt will bring a season of sorrow into our lives over many of our actions repentance sometimes hurts quite a bit

god gives us gifts as we hear and believe him brother je doesn’t work outside of his words with man but within those confines

all we need to do is hear what the lord really said in the gospel and accept it and believe those things he said as we learn them