Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

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Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Precious friend:

if God's Preserved Word Of Truth "Cannot be completely relied upon" then we no
longer have any Truth, eh?:

Handling The Word Of Life!

Amen.
I don't think Little 5points said what you are saying. He was talking about a particular version of the bible, i.e. the KJV. And I agree with him totally. It's not prudent to put 100% trust into any particular version of the bible; for something often gets lost when translating from one language to another. I personally rely on several versions, of the Formal Equivalancey, Dynamic Equivalancey and Paraphrase varieties that help me to capture the sense of what is being said.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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Precious friend:

if God's Preserved Word Of Truth "Cannot be completely relied upon" then we no
longer have any Truth, eh?:

Handling The Word Of Life!

Amen.
Many of us probably agree that God's preserved word of truth can be relied on. However we do not agree that any particular man's interpretation of that preserved word can certainly be relied on. Many people are adamantly convinced that their personal interpretations of particular debatable scriptures are certainly correct when realistically those scriptures allow for more than one potential meaning.
 

HealthAndHappiness

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Jul 7, 2022
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Almost Heaven West Virginia
I don't think Little 5points said what you are saying. He was talking about a particular version of the bible, i.e. the KJV. And I agree with him totally. It's not prudent to put 100% trust into any particular version of the bible; for something often gets lost when translating from one language to another. I personally rely on several versions, of the Formal Equivalancey, Dynamic Equivalancey and Paraphrase varieties that help me to capture the sense of what is being said.

I don't trust the so called Bibles of the critical texts in any way. Something is always lost in the transiting from one language to another? You can't translate a correct Bible from corrupt origins. What gets lost are the unbelievers.

The true to faith King James Bible that believers trust Jesus from, because they trust His Word, has been the standard for 4 centuries.

>Get Saved Today<
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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Then you would be 100% wrong; for you err greatly. You don't understand... blah blah blah blah.
Have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect? The less you know, the more certain you are that you are right. the more you know the less certain you are thsat you are right. Which is probably why Paul said, "If any man thinks thsat he knows anything, he knows nothing as he thinks he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know." (1 Cor. 8:2)
You appear to be suffering from it.
 
Dec 29, 2022
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For those who believe one's salvation can be lost...at what point is it lost, and can it ever be regained?
 

HealthAndHappiness

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Jul 7, 2022
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For those who believe one's salvation can be lost...at what point is it lost, and can it ever be regained?
Losing a gift that lasts forever;
Wouldn't that be an oxymoron?

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
I John 1:9
 

HealthAndHappiness

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Jul 7, 2022
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Almost Heaven West Virginia
For those who believe one's salvation can be lost...at what point is it lost, and can it ever be regained?
I think most would refer to when they "repent of their sins" because the object of their salvation is themselves, or their good works rather than the Savior and His Sacrifice.
 

Musicmaster

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Feb 8, 2021
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Then you would be 100% wrong; for you err greatly. You don't understand the unilateral New Covenant promises of God, the power of God, the sovereignty of God, the faithfulness of God, the love of God, the gifts of God, the purposes of God or the heart of God. With all due respect, sir, this amounts to an awful lot of ignorance of the scriptures.
I'm curious...are you into Covenant theology?

Behold the extreme confidence of the Apostle:

Phil 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

NASB

Q: And when did this work begin? A: In eternity!

Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
NIV
I noticed that you jumped around to different of the modern translations. Is there a reason for this?

Q: What is the purpose of God's predestination? A: His elect's glorification for which He is ultimately responsible. (See above passage.)
Q: Can anyone or anything ever thwart God's purposes? A: NO!


Did someone here propose the possibility of anyone thwarting God's plan? I don't recall such.

Job 42:2
2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.
NIV

Q: What is the Heart of God toward his elect? A: That He will never withhold any good thing from them and that nothing whatsoever will ever separate them from His eternal love.

Rom 8:28
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
NIV


Are you of the Calvinist leaning?

And,

Rom 8:31-39
31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all — how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died — more than that, who was raised to life — is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:

"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."


37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NIV

And all the above are just the tip of the Doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. You totally misunderstand the hypothetical condition in 2Tim 2:12 by assuming that the verse is teaching that a true saint of God can disown him. Yet, nowhere in scripture is that taught. In fact, quite the opposite is true. All of God's elect, who have been gifted a new heart by Him as promised in the New Covenant, will never fall away or disown him but will persevere in the Faith. You might want to carefully and prayerfully ponder the Parable of the Four Soils in Lk 8:4-15.
What is such a blessing to us today is that we don't have to "persevere unto the end" as is true of those under the Kingdom Gospel.

MM
 

Musicmaster

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Feb 8, 2021
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For those who believe one's salvation can be lost...at what point is it lost, and can it ever be regained?
This stabs at the same type question I asked of those who claim one can lose his salvation. I asked who among them has ever lost it, and the silence was deafening. The next question I asked was whom have they ever known who lost theirs, and, again, the silence was deafening.

MM
 

Musicmaster

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Feb 8, 2021
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Losing a gift that lasts forever;
Wouldn't that be an oxymoron?

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
I John 1:9
Yeah, but there are those who think that mankind has the power to break the Power of the Almighty, in His ability to hold us in His Hands...the very Almighty who said that there is no power in Heaven or earth that can snatch even one of us from His Hands. The fleshly pride some take in man's abilities is really quite astounding.

MM
 

Musicmaster

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Feb 8, 2021
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I think most would refer to when they "repent of their sins" because the object of their salvation is themselves, or their good works rather than the Savior and His Sacrifice.
The truth is, those who were instructed to repent of their sins and to be baptized unto salvation, they were under the Kingdom Gospel. It's such a blessing that we today are not under that nor the former dispensation of Law, for neither of those were spoken TO us who are the recipients of the great mystery revealed first to Paul, and only through him. So many of my Hebrew Roots acquaintances reject Paul as a legitimate apostle of Christ Jesus, even though Peter and all the other apostles lauded him as THE apostle to the Gentiles.

MM
 
Dec 29, 2022
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Phil 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

NASB
Amen.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. - Philippians 2:13
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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I don't trust the so called Bibles of the critical texts in any way. Something is always lost in the transiting from one language to another? You can't translate a correct Bible from corrupt origins. What gets lost are the unbelievers.

The true to faith King James Bible that believers trust Jesus from, because they trust His Word, has been the standard for 4 centuries.

>Get Saved Today<
And I don't unwisely put all my eggs in one basket either. This is no such thing as an inspired translation. Only the original languages in scripture were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
 

Beckworth

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May 15, 2019
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For those who believe one's salvation can be lost...at what point is it lost, and can it ever be regained?
At what point it is lost is really irrelevant. The question that needs to be answered is CAN IT BE LOST. We only know what God reveals in scripture; if He hasn’t revealed it, it does no good to speculate. I am only one of several who have posted on this site giving many, many scriptures showing, in God’s word that a saved person CAN be lost. Many scriptures say that a person can “FALL” . Please tell me where did they fall FROM? An unbeliever “fall”?? From WHAT? They are already LOST. Hebrews 6:4-6 is one -and 2 Peter 3:17 is another. What about Galations 5:4? There are so many.

We have a perfect example of a saved person who sinned, was in danger of losing his salvation, and was told to “repent and pray for forgiveness” in Acts 8. 8. Read the story of Simon the sorcerer. The apostle Peter said Simon would “PERISH”. Every child of God can repent and pray when they sin; it’s the believer who refuses to repent and lives a life of sin that will be lost.

I am reminded that an atheist has no problem understanding Genesis 1:1- In the beginning was God. He understands it—he just doesn’t believe it!!

So far, the Calvinist here have not answered or explained any of the many scriptures given that have been used to prove a saved person can be lost. All they do is bring up a DIFFERENT scripture that they think proves they can’t be lost. If you can’t reasonably answer or explain Hebrews6:4-6, 2 Peter 3:17, Galations 5:4. , Exodus 32:33, Rev. 3:5, Hebrews 12:15, 4:11, it does not prove anything if you post scriptures that YOU THINK teach “once saved/always saved”; all you have done is “PIT” one scripture against another—making the Bible sound like it is CONTRADICTING ITSELF. If the scriptures I have listed DO NOT teach a child of God can be lost—then talk about THose SCRIPTURES and show us how they do not prove that.

Like the atheist, I believe some on this site have no problem understanding what the Bible says—they just don’t believe it. If that is the case we are wasting our time trying to convince them.
 

Beckworth

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May 15, 2019
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I think most would refer to when they "repent of their sins" because the object of their salvation is themselves, or their good works rather than the Savior and His Sacrifice.
How odd. I am really surprised that you would call the apostle Peter a person whose “ object of their salvation is themselves or their good works”. You must not be familiar with Acts 8 where he tells Simon the sorcerer to “repent”. Simon who was a new convert having just believed and was baptized—sinned and Peter told him he was going to “PERISH.” A good example of a “saved” person who, unless he repented and prayed for forgiveness was going to be lost! Are you going to tell me that Simon was never saved in the first place? Are you going to tell me that the word “Perish” doesn’t mean “death or destruction? (I looked it up). Are you going to tell me “that’s just your interpretation” and “it doesn’t mean that.” So far that is all I have gotten as answers to the scriptures I have presented.
 

Musicmaster

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Feb 8, 2021
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Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Generally speaking, it's quite amazing how many ignore the temporary laying aside of Israel in order for Gentiles to be made partakers of a grace not earned, and that continued ignoring of this is a form of conceit.

MM
 

Musicmaster

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Feb 8, 2021
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How odd. I am really surprised that you would call the apostle Peter a person whose “ object of their salvation is themselves or their good works”. You must not be familiar with Acts 8 where he tells Simon the sorcerer to “repent”. Simon who was a new convert having just believed and was baptized—sinned and Peter told him he was going to “PERISH.” A good example of a “saved” person who, unless he repented and prayed for forgiveness was going to be lost! Are you going to tell me that Simon was never saved in the first place? Are you going to tell me that the word “Perish” doesn’t mean “death or destruction? (I looked it up). Are you going to tell me “that’s just your interpretation” and “it doesn’t mean that.” So far that is all I have gotten as answers to the scriptures I have presented.
James, who preached the same gospel as Peter, stated that it is by works that a man is justified, which is the same gospel preached by Christ to the Jews. Paul preached no such gospel to the Gentiles. Many have said to me that it's the same gospel throughout...

Of them I ask, "Really?" Well, let's put that to the acid test:

Matthew 15:22-28
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Gentiles were dogs under the Kingdom Gospel. Attempts to escape that fact is futile. This clearly shows that the ONLY salvation available to Gentiles was to become Jews.

Ephesians 3:1-3, 5-7
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, ...
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

The belief that some harbor that there was only one gospel...well, the expense to truth is enormous in the belief systems that ride upon that bandwagon.

MM
 

homwardbound

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Oct 24, 2012
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James, who preached the same gospel as Peter, stated that it is by works that a man is justified, which is the same gospel preached by Christ to the Jews. Paul preached no such gospel to the Gentiles. Many have said to me that it's the same gospel throughout...

Of them I ask, "Really?" Well, let's put that to the acid test:

Matthew 15:22-28
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Gentiles were dogs under the Kingdom Gospel. Attempts to escape that fact is futile. This clearly shows that the ONLY salvation available to Gentiles was to become Jews.

Ephesians 3:1-3, 5-7
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, ...
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

The belief that some harbor that there was only one gospel...well, the expense to truth is enormous in the belief systems that ride upon that bandwagon.

MM
All have gotten called, to either believe God or not in risen Son Jesus or not, no longer under Laws or traditions, no longer worship on this mountain or that one. God came to live in us each person with love, honesty and equality, between one another, at least fro me this I see.
I love it, this came to the Gentile without being under Law, to me seeing this upholding law as good for me to see only the love of God to penetrate through me, in process learning this still daily
Love of God best described 1 Cor 13:4-7, which God imputes to us that ask for this truth, thanks MM
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.
Context is important. Who was paul saying this to? Why did he say it?