Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[rogerg]

Exodus 32:332-33-Moses said, “Forgive them or else BLOT ME OUT OF YOUR BOOK.” Moses believed he could be lost; or are you going to say that Moses was never saved?

Part I (truncated due to size)

No, but what was God's response to Moses? Refer to Exodus 32:33. God did not, and could not, erase Moses from His book because Moses's sins were to be forgiven through Christ. Therefore, regardless of what he offered to God, his salvation could not be forfeited. This is why God stated, "Whoever has sinned against me." Since Moses's sins were to be forgiven by Christ, he was never at risk of losing his salvation. In this instance, Moses served as a representation of what Christ would ultimately accomplish.

[Exo 32:33 KJV] 33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Revelation 3:5- Jesus said, “He who overcomes (sin) shall be clothed in white and I will NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE.” He was talking to the CHURCH , and he told them to repent. The reverse of that would have to be true— If you don’t repent, , I WILL blot out your name from the book of life.

No. Who is he that overcometh? Those who are born of themselves? No, absolutely not, only those born of God! It is by the love of God, that His commandments are kept, not of themselves. And His commandment is satisfied by God - that those who were chosen, truly come to believe in Christ.

[1Jo 5:3-5 KJV]
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 Cor. 9:27- Paul said he was in a race ( life) for an imperishable “crown” (of life, heaven). Verse 25, Paul says he tries not to sin “ lest when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.( thereby losing the race and the crown). So far we have MOSES and PAUL and GOD testifying that Saved people can be lost spiritually.

No, a castaway from preaching, not a castaway from salvation.

The redeemed cannot be lost; if that were possible, it would imply that Christ's sacrifice is less powerful than the strength of sin, which cannot be the case since Christ is God.

1 Tim. 1:18- having FAITH and a good conscience, who some have rejected having shipwrecked their faith.

They belittled and dismissed the Christian faith. Merely believing does not necessarily equate to salvation.

[Luk 8:13 ESV] 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

1 Cor. 10:12- “Therefore let him who thinks he stands (strong in the faith) take heed lest he FALL. Fall from where? If they are not saved they are already lost, so where did they FALL FROM and where did they FALL TO?!?! PLEASE Answer.

The phrase "he stands strong" signifies reliance on one's own efforts and strength, rather than trust in Christ. Contrary to what you suggested, it does not imply being "strong in faith"; in fact, it suggests the exact opposite.

They were being instructed as an admonition.

[1Co 10:11 KJV]
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

[1Co 10:13 KJV] 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

-2 John 8-9-“Look to yourselves THAT WE DO NOT LOSE the things we worked for ( these are NOT UNBELIEVERS), but that we may receive a full reward….Whoever does NOT ABIDE in the doctrine of Christ HAS NOT GOD.” They have to be “IN” the doctrine of Christ in order to “ABIDE” in it.

Those in Christ are so by God, not man:

[1Co 1:30 KJV]
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Roman’s 11:22-“ Toward you goodness, IF you continue in His goodness, OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.” They were SAVED because they were IN GOD’s GOODNESS. You can’t CONTINUE in something if you are not already in it in the first place. But he tells them if they don’t CONTINUE in His goodness, HE WILL CUT THEM OFF. This harmonizes with Revelation 3:10- remain FAITHFUL to the end and He will give you a crown of life. It’s conditional upon FAITHFULNESS.

Not everyone can persist in God's goodness, as not all are truly saved; the unsaved may only do so temporarily. Those who are genuinely saved will not falter in such a way, for they are sustained by the power of the Holy Spirit. Upon salvation and rebirth, the Holy Spirit is bestowed and remains forever, granted by Christ, not by human hands.

[Rom 15:13-14 KJV]
13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. 14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another..

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[Eph 5:9 KJV]
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth

Chron. 28:9- David said to Solomon,”If you forsake Him(God), hHe will cast you off forever!” Was Solomon NOT saved? No! Solomon was God’s handpicked King of the Jewish people. Of course he was saved and so was David. Here we have another testimony from King David.

Indeed, Solomon was saved. The warning pertained to the rending of the earthly kingdom of Israel from him, not the forfeiture of his salvation.

[1Ki 11:11-13 KJV]
11 Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant. 1
12 Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: [but] I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.
13 Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; [but] will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.

 

[rogerg]

Rev. 2:4- Jesus speaking to the CHURCH (saved people), “Repent! Or I will remove your lamp stand.”

Part II (continuation)

The lampstand (candlestick) represented the corporate churches. It does not pertain to an individual's salvation.

[Rev 1:20 KJV] 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Hebrews 2:1- “Give heed to the things we have heard, lest we DRIFT AWAY. Paul says “WE” placing himself in the group he is speaking to. Was Paul saved or are you going to say he was never saved? Or do you think he was saved but the people he was talking to were not . Then why put himself in that group of unsaved people? He placed himself as one of the ones who could DRIFT AWAY.

If one is among the elect and saved, it is solely through Christ that they are brought to glory, and such salvation cannot be forfeited.

[Heb 2:10, 13 KJV]
10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. ...
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Hebrews 6:4-6- “For it is impossible for those who were once ENLIGHTENED ( by the gospel), and HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT ( Of salvation) aThey have been saved. “AND HAVE BEEN PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND HAVE TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, if they FALL AWAY to RENEW THEM AGAIN to repentance.”

You didn't read far enough. Paul explains in 6:9 that those truly saved cannot fall away:

[Heb 6:9 KJV] 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Hebrews 10:35- Therefore do not CAST AWAY your confidence ( of salvation), which has great reward. For you need to ENDURE, so that AFTER YOU HAVE DONE THE WILL OF GOD, you may receive the promise (of heaven). Read the preceding verses-32-34. These were Christian’s who had suffered persecution because (verse34), because “they knew they had a better and enduring possession for yourselves in heaven

Hebrews 10:35-36 speaks to the virtue of patience (endurance) rather than the preservation of salvation. Patience itself carries its own reward.
The phrase "ye have" in 10:34 indicates that it was already in their spiritual possession. Paul's message was to encourage them to maintain patience.

[Heb 10:34 KJV] 34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

Hebrews 12:15 “Lest anyone FALL SHORT of the grace of God.” Read who these people are in verse 1.

Individuals who are saved do not instantly comprehend salvation through God's grace. Rather, they, as everyone should, must study scripture to recognize God's grace, understand its meaning, and mature in that knowledge. However, the chosen ones will invariably attain an understanding and trust in it; those not chosen will never come to that understanding nor truly believe in it.

Galations 5:4- “YOU ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE.” Please tell me if God WANTED TO WARN US that we could fall from grace and be lost, how could he have said it any better?

No, that is not what God was saying. Read on to v 5:10.

[Gal 5:10 KJV]
10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

2 Peter 3:17- you, BELOVED ( Christian), BEWARE, lest you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS—did you get that? These people had been STEADFAST. (Definition: loyal, faithful, devoted firm, unwavering.) being LED AWAY from what? With the error of the wicked.” (You) Grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Wouldn’t you have to be IN GRACE before you could GROW IN GRACE?

Receiving grace and growing in grace are complementary concepts. Receiving grace is a spiritual gift from God, while growing in grace is an intellectual journey that unfolds through studying the Bible. Without receiving grace on the spiritual level, one cannot grasp or embrace it intellectually. On the other hand, those who have received grace spiritually will develop an ever-increasing intellectual appreciation and belief in it of it over time, the others, not.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

By Faith ( Forever Able In The Heavens) God given to us to respond to it in thanksgiving and praise for me at least, this I see. Wow
Amazing grace given not of works, (self works) Of God's done works of Son for God's music to get given us, free of charge forever, as religion does the opposite, at least that be my experience, along with people in general, which in past I have been guilty of using this grace for my own advantage also. Seeing differently now, thanking God for God's love and mercy of Son for us all, I see Hebrews 4 to rest in trust to God's done work of Son for me and all others also
Amazing grace given to believe it or not
Believe willingly, receive, and see as the new you has begun in you too, by God for us to be new. Amazing grace this is y'all, so stand therefore stand in trust to God who did it for us to appreciate and not take for granted and use it for any self gain, thanks

yea Gods telling us to get with it and do what we’re supposed to do and stop serving the devils Will , in the end to simplify . He’s been telling man that since Eden’s fall .

 

[Beckworth]

What makes no sense from what the "salvation can be lost" crowd has been saying is that they seem to think that seeking salvation through faith, one is then trapped. Where it's true that many a fella who joined the military felt trapped once they saw what it's like to have to live by discipline, that is not at all comparable to eternal salvation. I have NEVER met a true believer who said that he felt trapped and wanted out. Not ONE of the "salvation can be lost" gang has stated that they have ever met anyone who lost their salvation.

If we didn't have free will, then the Bible is a huge lie:

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

If mankind in general had no free will, then this and many, many other verses make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

MM

Oh, I beg to differ! I have witnessed probably 50-100 people in my lifetime who have lost their salvation. Just like the parable of the sower says. The seed of the gospel converts people, they are faithful for awhile, they take root and grow ( now don’t tell me they were never saved in the first place) but some are overcome by worldliness ( cares of the world) and they quit the Lord. Some are very shallow and they have no root so their faith withers and dies, perhaps because of ridicule or persecution. Our congregations practice “withdrawal” just as the scriptures say to do. 2 Thess. 3:6, 1 Cor. 5:11-13. It’s not something we enjoy doing but it is also a commandment of God. I have a young friend who cheated on his wife and was divorced for sexual immorality. He did not want to live by God’s laws on marriage and divorce so he turned his back on God. Some young people who have been saved for years, go off to college and lose their faith becoming, agnostics or atheists. One young man I know lost his infant child; he blamed God and turned his back on God because his child died. All of these people faithful Christians for awhile but FELL AWAY just like the scriptures say.

There are even cases in the New Testament. 2 Tim.17-18 Hymenaeus and Philetus “strayed from the faith and over threw the faith of some others. The man in 1 Cor. 5 who had his father’s wife. Paul told them when they came together (as. A church), to deliver him to Satan. They were to “withdraw” from him. Demas in 2 Tim.4:10, Paul said had forsaken him, having loved this present world. He had been a fellow worker with Paul and was listed with Mark and Luke in Phil. 1:24 and Col. 4:14. Those are the first that come to mind—there might be others I can’t remember right now.

So you see, it’s not at all unusual both in the New Testament and in today’s world.

Most of the “salvation can be lost” crowd as you call us believe in “free will” and therefore do not think people are “trapped” in or out of salvation. I think you might have misunderstood that.

 

[Beckworth]

Part II (continuation)

The lampstand (candlestick) represented the corporate churches. It does not pertain to an individual's salvation.

[Rev 1:20 KJV] 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.



If one is among the elect and saved, it is solely through Christ that they are brought to glory, and such salvation cannot be forfeited.

[Heb 2:10, 13 KJV]
10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. ...
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.



You didn't read far enough. Paul explains in 6:9 that those truly saved cannot fall away:

[Heb 6:9 KJV] 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.



Hebrews 10:35-36 speaks to the virtue of patience (endurance) rather than the preservation of salvation. Patience itself carries its own reward.
The phrase "ye have" in 10:34 indicates that it was already in their spiritual possession. Paul's message was to encourage them to maintain patience.

[Heb 10:34 KJV] 34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.



Individuals who are saved do not instantly comprehend salvation through God's grace. Rather, they, as everyone should, must study scripture to recognize God's grace, understand its meaning, and mature in that knowledge. However, the chosen ones will invariably attain an understanding and trust in it; those not chosen will never come to that understanding nor truly believe in it.



No, that is not what God was saying. Read on to v 5:10.

[Gal 5:10 KJV]
10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.



Receiving grace and growing in grace are complementary concepts. Receiving grace is a spiritual gift from God, while growing in grace is an intellectual journey that unfolds through studying the Bible. Without receiving grace on the spiritual level, one cannot grasp or embrace it intellectually. On the other hand, those who have received grace spiritually will develop an ever-increasing intellectual appreciation and belief in it of it over time, the others, not.[/QUOT

It’s PEOPLE who make up a church—not a building. God says -TO THE PEOPLE IN THAT CHURCH—REMEMBER FROM WHERE YOU HAVE “FALLEN”. He tells THE PEOPLE to repent —a building cannot repent-OR He would remove their lamp stand. If He did that what would that mean?? It means that they would no longer be God’s church—God’s people. He tells them that they must “overcome” (sin) if they want to go to Paradise and eat from the tree of Life. Then in verse 10 God says they MUST be faithful if they want a crown of life. I find it interesting that God says they HAVE FALLEN! Please tell me where they fell from. I know, but you don’t seem to know. And where did they FALL to? If they can’t FALL from Grace as you believe, then what was God talking about? How could they have “FALLEN”? So you see it DOES PERTAIN TO AN INDIVIDUALS SITUATION.

Hebrew 6:9 does not say anything about the impossibility of losing their salvation. Yes, Hebrews 10:34 is talking about the ones who are faithful to God. Undoubtedly, you think the ones who are unfaithful to God are the SAME ONES who are UN faithful to him. You must fail to see that these are not the same people in verses verse 34 as the ones in verses 4-6. We are talking about 2 different groups of people. The ones in verses 4-6 are unfaithful, living in sin. The ones in verse 34 are the “FAITHFUL” servants of God.

You did not deal at all with what Paul says in Galations 5:4. I mean it’s plain—we can read it. How can you say it’s NOT what God is saying, when that is EXACTLY what God says. Besides, you have NOT explained what verse 4 is saying if it’s NOT what God says!!

I believe You are trying so hard to “ deny” God’s very plain words, and to “explain away” God’s message because it does not fit with the man-made doctrine of Calvinism. By refusing God’s word, you seem to love and honor John Calvin more instead of Jesus who is your Savior and died for you. God is seeking HONEST hearts to follow Him.

 

[homwardbound]

Maybe >This< will be a blessing.
Have a good day!
🍵🙂👍

thanks
It is a blessing, in the long haul. Not easy. Getting peeled like an onion, worth it, to see clearly. Kind of like Paul, so to speak. Went through it. Saw what it caused him/me to do, under Law. Saw it myself,the curse of being under Law, over upholding Law. The Law is perfect.
i, the self can’t do it perfectly, I need God Father and Son as Won (One) for me. That being why he came to earth and sacrificed himself, willingly for the people, that is done for us to get his risen life permeated in us, those that choose belief in this done work for them. Not quitting, will one day see it in amazement. I have and do daily
trusting God to not only reveal this to a few, to all to choose and stand in it or not. That is why there will be no excuse for anyone on Judgement day. All will know consciously, and have chosen to believe God wholly, that begins with believing Son did take away all sin, everything but unbelief to Father and them through Son’s done work.
today is another day to believe God in this love and mercy of Sonfor us to be thankful in and continue in for me at least







God does work out everything to the good of God’s love. Revealed in Jeremiah 29:11 to me.

 

[rogerg]

"I believe You are trying so hard to “ deny” God’s very plain words, and to “explain away” God’s message because it does not fit with the man-made doctrine of Calvinism. By refusing God’s word, you seem to love and honor John Calvin more instead of Jesus who is your Savior and died for you. God is seeking HONEST hearts to follow Him."

And I believe that you do not follow the rules the Bible itself sets-forth and demands be followed for its own interpretation.
Only by adhering to those rules through the Holy Spirit, can you discover its true doctrines. Thus, you mistakenly attribute the responsibility for a person's salvation to their deeds and choices instead of relying solely upon Christ as Savior. Unless you become able to do so through God's grace, the true gospel will remain closed to you.

A (biblical) corporate church could lose its status as a church favored by God due to the doctrines it as a church advocated. However, this did not affect the salvation status of all of its individual members, otherwise, salvation would be by church and not by Christ.

At this point, I'm not going to continue to invest further time and effort to refute and correct the numerous errors of your latest post.

 

[homwardbound]

"I believe You are trying so hard to “ deny” God’s very plain words, and to “explain away” God’s message because it does not fit with the man-made doctrine of Calvinism. By refusing God’s word, you seem to love and honor John Calvin more instead of Jesus who is your Savior and died for you. God is seeking HONEST hearts to follow Him."

And I believe that you do not follow the rules the Bible itself sets-forth and demands be followed for its own interpretation.
Only by adhering to those rules through the Holy Spirit, can you discover its true doctrines. Thus, you mistakenly attribute the responsibility for a person's salvation to their deeds and choices instead of relying solely upon Christ as Savior. Unless you become able to do so through God's grace, the true gospel will remain closed to you.

A (biblical) corporate church could lose its status as a church favored by God due to the doctrines it as a church advocated. However, this did not affect the salvation status of all of its individual members, otherwise, salvation would be by church and not by Christ.

At this point, I'm not going to continue to invest further time and effort to refute and correct the numerous errors of your latest post.

I assume, you are talking to me, I am not a Calvinist, nor a member of any earth Church.
I believe God personally over anyone else, includes myself, the first birth, thanks for the admonishment if it is you talking about me and judging me, hoping you d o believe God also, in his done work of Son for us all.
I glory in this, thank you, and hope the best for you, as I hope you do that for me too and everyone else too
Bless you

 

[rogerg]

I assume, you are talking to me, I am not a Calvinist, nor a member of any earth Church.
I believe God personally over anyone else, includes myself, the first birth, thanks for the admonishment if it is you talking about me and judging me, hoping you d o believe God also, in his done work of Son for us all.
I glory in this, thank you, and hope the best for you, as I hope you do that for me too and everyone else too
Bless you

No, sorry, it was to Beckworth not you

 

[homwardbound]

No, sorry, it was to Beckworth not you

Hoping the best for all. as we each get lost here on this earth, as I k now I have many a times and even got caught up under Law and saw a curse that formed in me that would not let go of me, as for many years I tried for that to be gone. finally seeing "I" can't God can as said by Jesus in Matthew 19, and see this also, I am in process daily to take care of each day as each day happens in this love and mercy given me to stand in appreciation and not ever use it for any self gain ever.
Psalm 100:4, 103:12

 

[Theopolitan]

At what point it is lost is really irrelevant.[/QUOTE}
Ah begs to diffa.

It is most relevant. At what point does Jesus fail, and the devil is able to pluck some back from His hand? At what point is God unable to keep His promise?

And don't forget the second part of that question...can salvation, once it is lost, ever be regained?

 

[Rufus]

Congrats! I'm not either. But neither am I into making man's finite, fallible, carnal reasoning powers the final authority for understanding scripture. You reach your fallacious conclusion because you don't understand the Abrahamic Covenant's Inclusive Promise for spiritual seed, which involves Israel and the Gentile nations. Understanding the four seeds of the Covenant is actually crucial to understanding soteriorology and eschatology.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Being brought into one body by the all sufficient Blood of Christ, yes, but the Church is not the replacement of Israel on this earth. That is what I was saying in relation to what it sounded like you were positing.

MM[/QUOTE]

For your info, the Abrahamic Covenant doesn't replace or exclude anyone. As stated yesterday, the covenant is INCLUSIVE; for it was God's intention in eternity to redeem Jews and Gentiles alike "from every tribe and language and people and nation" (Rev 5:9). Replacement Theology is just a visceral, knee-jerk reaction to God's revealed redemptive program.

 

[Beckworth]

So eternal life is not eternal life.

Thats good to know.

Gods promise that we will never die is not true

Again, Good to know

Gods promise that we will never hunger or thirst is not true

Again, good to know

Gods promise he WILl raise us on the last day is not true

His promise that we are sealed with the spirit UNTIL the day of redemption is not true

Its good to know All these things and other promised are not true, It would be so sad to have faith in God to keep his promises, only to later find out that non of those things are really true, and we will end up in hell anyway.

Yes, eternal life is promised to all the “faithful” followers of Christ. Just because the “unfaithful don’t receive it does NOT make his promises untrue. Revelation 2 and 3-God is writing to the Christians in those churches . He says to the saints at Ephesus that they had “FALLEN”. Then He gives them some choices. First He told them to Repent. ( why did they need to repent if they were saved regardless?). That doesn’t make sense. Then, still talking to these “FALLEN CHRISTIANS”, He says, to those (Christians) who OVERCOME SIN, I will let THEM eat from the tree of life in Paradise. Did you notice He did not promise this to Those “FALLEN CHRISTIANS”. He told them to “REPENT.” The promise of eternal life is promised to those who OVERCOME sin, not
those who sin and do not repent. He also says, If you will be faithful (to me) until you die, I will give you the crown of life. Who was that promise made to—-the “FALLEN CHRISTIANS”? NO! Only those who “repent” and live a faithful life to the Lord. And finally, in verse 11, JESUS says, the ones who OVERCOME—who are they?— they are the ones who are FAITHFUL to God and have overcome sin—Jesus says they will not go to hell. What about the ones who 1) do NOT repent; 2) do NOT overcome sin. 3) are NOT “faithful”? They will will be burned up by the second death. How can you Mis-lead people into thinking God does NOT keep his promises? I have to believe you really know better.

God’s promise of “never seeing death is made to the righteous.” Proverbs 12:28 “In the way of RIGHTEOUSNESS is life. And in its pathway there is no death.” God never promised “life” to the UN-righteous. Christians who sin and do not repent are UN-righteous. God’s promises of life , a crown, etc, are not given to them. You are not teaching the truth. John 8:51- God says anyone who KEEPS MY WORD, shall never see death. If that is true then the opposite of that is also true. “Anyone who does NOT keep my word, shall die.” GOD DOES KEEP HIS PROMISES.

In Ephesians 1, those who were sealed by the Holy Spirit were those who KEPT GOD’s WORD. See verse 1. God made no such promise to those “unfaithful” Christians who do NOT keep His word. So, you see, GOD DOES KEEP HIS PROMISES. I wonder what He thinks of you for trying to created doubt and unbelief in the mind of people by accusing him of such “unrighteousness”.

 

[Rufus]

I assume you got some pleasure out of telling us what you think and surmise. But if you won't answer questions put to you it's not a discussion or a dialogue. It's just you bragging.

What questions didn't I answer about Saint Simon who lost his salvation?

 

[Musicmaster]

Oh, I beg to differ! I have witnessed probably 50-100 people in my lifetime who have lost their salvation.

How do you know any one of them lost their salvation? Did the Lord reveal that to you, because only Deity say for sure, so how did YOU know what you THINNK that you know?

Just like the parable of the sower says. The seed of the gospel converts people, they are faithful for awhile, they take root and grow ( now don’t tell me they were never saved in the first place) but some are overcome by worldliness ( cares of the world) and they quit the Lord. Some are very shallow and they have no root so their faith withers and dies, perhaps because of ridicule or persecution. Our congregations practice “withdrawal” just as the scriptures say to do.

I agree with you that what Jesus spoke to those under the Kingdom Gospel was indeed true to them and will be true to those in the tribulation period. Yes. They will have to have "endured unto the end," just as it is written. Those to whom Jesus spoke were still under the Law, and the tribulation people, including Israel, will have to endure the within the Kingdom Gospel unto the end so that they SHALL be saved.

When you fail to rightly divide the word of TRUTH, that TRUTH from TRUTH, not TRUTH from falsehood. The Gospel of Grace is not what they were under back then, and the tribulation people will also NOT be under the Gospel of Grace.

We are under the Gospel of Grace, not works:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

This reality spoken here by Paul under the Gospel of Grace was not in force for those to whom Jesus was speaking concerning that seed parable. Some of the seed started to grow but were choked out...that was for those under the Kingdom Gospel to whom Jesus was speaking at that time because the MYSTERY had not yet been revealed and empowered. They were required to ENDURE unto the END. We today are transformed, which is a reality that was not in force for those people at that time, nor will it be available to those in the tribulation.

So, unless you were looking at people who were under the Kingdom Gospel, which you were not, you saw not one soul that lost his or her salvation. That's just confused thinking on many people's part today because of their failure to rightly divide the word of truth. Perhaps you observed people who did not ever TRULY believe in the crucifixion, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus, and who later went back into the sinful life without having been transformed through a true, saving faith, but not one of them lost their salvation, unless you consider yourself Deity and therefore empowered to see down into their hearts, which, I hope you don't mind me saying, for which I have grave doubts.

MM

 

[PaulThomson]

What questions didn't I answer about Saint Simon who lost his salvation?

Was the man Mark 14:3 calls "Simon the Leper" still a leper when people came to his party where Jesus was his guest?

 

[Musicmaster]

Thus, you mistakenly attribute the responsibility for a person's salvation to their deeds and choices instead of relying solely upon Christ as Savior.

Very well said. The problem is in those who think that a man has the power to nullify that salvation under the Gospel of Grace, which is indeed the TRUE Gospel as stated in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

A (biblical) corporate church could lose its status as a church favored by God due to the doctrines it as a church advocated. However, this did not affect the salvation status of all of its individual members, otherwise, salvation would be by church and not by Christ.

Frankly, the institutional system, being purely man-made, that is neither here nor there in the arena of importance. The Church is comprised of the saved individual through grace rather than their works, as you stated above. Pointing at some earthly, corporate body, they are the bodies into which the unsaved enter and become members in order to warm the pews or chairs, but the body of Christ is comprised of ONLY the saved, into which no unsaved individual may enter.

MM

 

[Rufus]

So, do you believe that only the original autographs were worthy of believing since you claim the translations since those and copies are all in error?

First of all, I didn't say what you said and I just bolded, although there are certainly minor errors in the extant manuscripts that don't affect either orthodoxy or orthopraxy. Having said that, I believe God is all-wise and knew exactly what he was doing when he inspired his revelation in the original languages of the time.

Now, I have a question for you: Do you believe that missionaries around the world should also be teaching people of foreign tongues the Early Modern English language so that they can read out of the "one, true, inspired, inerrant" translation? After all, if the KJV is all that, then this implies that English has to be the one true language of the world.

 

[Magenta]

How do you know any one of them lost their salvation? Did the Lord reveal that to you,
because only Deity say for sure, so how did YOU know what you THINNK that you know?

1 Samuel 16:7b - God looks at the heart

 

[Musicmaster]

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Being brought into one body by the all sufficient Blood of Christ, yes, but the Church is not the replacement of Israel on this earth. That is what I was saying in relation to what it sounded like you were positing.

MM

For your info, the Abrahamic Covenant doesn't replace or exclude anyone. As stated yesterday, the covenant is INCLUSIVE; for it was God's intention in eternity to redeem Jews and Gentiles alike "from every tribe and language and people and nation" (Rev 5:9). Replacement Theology is just a visceral, knee-jerk reaction to God's revealed redemptive program.[/QUOTE]

Yes, this does indeed smack of replacement theology, or at least some portions of that system of thought.

Being one body under the Headship of Christ does not mean that the promises made through Abraham, Isaak and Israel transfer to us today. Melding together in Christ, with all distinctions melting away, that will never nullify the promises made to the nation Israel on this earth nor in the new earth to come. The body of Christ is not destined for the new earth or the New Jerusalem. We are destined for inhabiting the Heavenly places, just as scripture declares, which seems to be the portion of scripture that you seem to want to deny or ignore, which is pretty much the same thing.

MM