Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Musicmaster]

There is no rational argument behind that assertion. If God chose to create a world where beings could freely choose to have a loving relationship with Him or choose not to, it would not take greater power than God to turn away from Him and prefer friendship with the world.

Typical Westernized Christian thinking. I understand your bias here, and that's fine. Go with it.

By the way, are you saved right now...how about now...now? Enjoy the worn out exit door from salvation that so many think exists. We Israelis don't think like you Westerners, with our socially engineered theologies that you embrace with such tenacity.

MM

 

[Rufus]

Well, as an Israeli, I can honestly say that we never needed the Law to stir up sinful passions in us. Human nature is sufficient in concocting its own plethora of sinful passions. My people are obstinate, hard headed and stiff-necked, just as scripture says, and if you knew anything about historic writings from the ancient cultures that ever had any dealings with Israel, even with Israelis as their captives, you would know how difficult we are as a people.

So, trying to direct a choir of which you know nothing about only leads to disharmony in the cantata...

MM

You do not know the scriptures.

Rom 7:5-12
5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
NIV

Also, the Law was added so that sin would increase!

Rom 5:20-21
20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
NIV

 

[Rufus]

And one more thing before I forget. Don't you know, Mr. MM, that the law is the power of sin!?

1 Cor 15:56
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
NIV

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Adam and Eve did not lose faith when God failed them or became untrustworthy. They lost faith when they were seduced into believing that God was untrustworthy. Nevertheless God was not untrustworthy, nor had he failed them.

adam and eve never had to trust God to save them because they were lost until after the fall.

It does not take believing 100% in christ in everything he says to get saved.

it takes trusting

1. You are lost. You have sinned and fallen short of Gods glory, And because of this, a perfect and righteous judge has judged you guilty and placed a barrier between him and you preventing any relationship. This judgment is spiritual death
2. But God did not just leave you dead. He not only loved you, but he came to earth as a man, Lived the life God required from you. Only he never sinned, not even once, he kept the law perfectly. And as that perfect lamb, sacrificed himself on that cross “Cursed is the one who does not keep every word of the law“ and “cursed is the one who hands on a tree,” we see the law. Being the tutor to lead us to christ as Paul said in Gal 3. He who knew no sin became sin for us that we may be made the righteousness of God in him.
3. God comes to offer us that salvation. To adopt us into his family, to make us who are guilty in tresspasses and sins alive in him. As with abraham, we believed (place our trust and assurance) in him, and he accounts to us the righteousness which can only come from God.

Thats the gospel my friend, You either trust it or you do not

People do not have faith in this, then lose faith, unless they think

1. God lied
2. They are really not sinners and did not really need saved
3. God will not keep his word.

The problem with you legalists is you refuse to become poor in spirit. You still think you have to add some part to save yourself So when little things do not go your way, you cry me and fall. Like a dog you return to your vomit, because you may believe (even demons believe) but you have no faith.

so as paul said. You fall from grace that could have saved you, because you just could not humble yourself and recieve his gracious gift that cost you nothing, because that is against human nature. We have to be a part. We have to have a part. We crave it, we demand it.

well God said that will not work. it is not Faith plus works. It is Grace through faith.

John made it clear. People walk away in unbelief (as an antichrist) because they never had faith to begin with (they were never of us)

don;t tell the world you trust God. When everything you say is about yourself. You must do this, You must keep doing this, You must not do that etc etc.

because the world may believe you, But Gods family will never believe You. And God will re3ject your self righteousness as payment for sin,

the wage of sin is death. Not you living up to some standard! Or your good works

 

[PaulThomson]

There is no rational argument that says a God who is all knowing will save a person he knows will willingly walk away In the future. Left alone give them eternal life. And tghe promise they will never die..

I don't believe God knows whether someone will willingly walk away or not in the future. I believe God knows all truth, but most of the future has not yet been determined, so is not yet true, and so is not part of the "all truth" that God knows. So for me it is perfectly rational to say that God is all knowing and can save a person who could knowingly walk away in the future. Nowhere in scripture are we told that God knows all of the future.

 

[PaulThomson]

Typical Westernized Christian thinking. I understand your bias here, and that's fine. Go with it.

By the way, are you saved right now...how about now...now? Enjoy the worn out exit door from salvation that so many think exists. We Israelis don't think like you Westerners, with our socially engineered theologies that you embrace with such tenacity.

MM

Yes, I am saved right now, because I am trusting in God and trusting in Christ right now.

 

[Musicmaster]

You do not know the scriptures.

Rom 7:5-12
5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
NIV

Also, the Law was added so that sin would increase!

Rom 5:20-21
20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
NIV

Yeah, well, whatever... Believe what you want. I delve into the Greek and our history and writings of the elders, and your Westernized belief, coupled with that translation you are using based upon Gnostic Alexandrianism, you're free to believe whatever you want.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

And one more thing before I forget. Don't you know, Mr. MM, that the law is the power of sin!?

1 Cor 15:56
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
NIV

That truth doesn't lend backing to your dogmatic falsehood you stated earlier.

MM

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I don't believe God knows whether someone will willingly walk away or not in the future. I believe God knows all truth, but most of the future has not yet been determined, so is not yet true, and so is not part of the "all truth" that God knows. So for me it is perfectly rational to say that God is all knowing and can save a person who could knowingly walk away in the future. Nowhere in scripture are we told that God knows all of the future.

I don't think what you're saying is true. If God didn't know what happens in the future, He wouldn't have told us what is to come in all the prophecies He has included in the Bible.

In my experience, God doesn't tell us everything He knows beforehand because we might not understand or maybe not be able to handle whatever future there is for us until it actually happens. This is why God always encourages us to trust in Him.


🏂

 

[Musicmaster]

Yes, I am saved right now, because I am trusting in God and trusting in Christ right now.

But when one claims he has lost his salvation at some time in the past, as described by you, which sounds more like the emotional state you were in as related to your state of sins, that still doesn't justifiably prove the case of lost salvation. Feeling saved versus not feeling saved, that proves nothing, which seems to be the basis upon which you've built your claim.

I still would like to know how one can definitively know he has lost his salvation. If one were sealed by Holy Spirit, where is it said that sin unseals that sealing? Where does scripture say that one is UNborn again on the basis of sin? That would require a level of power that no man has to break those bonds and to alter the born again status of the individual through some unnamed process of birth status reversal.

When the Lord said that there are none who can pluck us from His Hands, were you or anyone else excluded so that you then have that power?

Sorry, but I'm just not seeing anything of substance in your claim.

MM

 

[Sipsey]

I don't believe God knows whether someone will willingly walk away or not in the future. I believe God knows all truth, but most of the future has not yet been determined, so is not yet true, and so is not part of the "all truth" that God knows. So for me it is perfectly rational to say that God is all knowing and can save a person who could knowingly walk away in the future. Nowhere in scripture are we told that God knows all of the future.

I am amazed that there are believers that view God as less than omniscient .

 

[homwardbound]

But when one claims he has lost his salvation at some time in the past, as described by you, which sounds more like the emotional state you were in as related to your state of sins, that still doesn't justifiably prove the case of lost salvation. Feeling saved versus not feeling saved, that proves nothing, which seems to be the basis upon which you've built your claim.

I still would like to know how one can definitively know he has lost his salvation. If one were sealed by Holy Spirit, where is it said that sin unseals that sealing? Where does scripture say that one is UNborn again on the basis of sin? That would require a level of power that no man has to break those bonds and to alter the born again status of the individual through some unnamed process of birth status reversal.

When the Lord said that there are none who can pluck us from His Hands, were you or anyone else excluded so that you then have that power?

Sorry, but I'm just not seeing anything of substance in your claim.

MM

I see this, we as people of flesh and blood feel. And feelings I see in me are fickle. It changes daily according to what is happening that day or in the days I portray, even in the days of my past regrets. in my own mind flesh set. might be time to renew the mindset in the risen Jesus?

Seeing this analogy
A train has an engine and a caboose
The Engine is God
The Caboose are feelings
If the Caboose is leading the train, and I see it is doing that. I would not choose to ride that train would anyone else?
Yet we the people have our first born selves leading the train, by our feelings, that are fickle that change in the twinkling of an eye. Unrealistic expectations come from feelings. That cannot predict future for sure, 100%
Only God can and did from Genesis 3:15-16 about Son Jesus crushing the head of Satan, the serpent. As evil is still out nipping at our feet, this evil is defeated in the risen Son Jesus for us to be new in truth of God's love and mercy to all, that is the train I want to be on daily, being led and not leading or letting anyone else lead me either but God in risen Son, thanks.

 

[homwardbound]

I don't believe God knows whether someone will willingly walk away or not in the future. I believe God knows all truth, but most of the future has not yet been determined, so is not yet true, and so is not part of the "all truth" that God knows. So for me it is perfectly rational to say that God is all knowing and can save a person who could knowingly walk away in the future. Nowhere in scripture are we told that God knows all of the future.

Do you believe God did not know, Adam and Eve had nit already sinned? It does read it that way, when God said to Adam "Who told you, you were naked?"
Did you eat from that tree?
As if God does not know or did not know. God loves us enough to let us each choose and not lord it over you, me or anyone else. At least to me that is what I see

 

[Jimbone]

Yes, I am saved right now, because I am trusting in God and trusting in Christ right now.

No, sorry brother but you are saved right now because God saved you. You had nothing to do with saving yourself and have no hand in keeping yourself saved. None. God gets ALL the glory and credit, you get none. You're not saved because of your trust, you are saved by His grace. Sorry if this upsets you or takes some of the credit you feel you deserve for making the right choice, or trusting good enough, or anything else you think you contribute to being saved. None you, ALL Him.

 

[Rufus]

I don't believe God knows whether someone will willingly walk away or not in the future. I believe God knows all truth, but most of the future has not yet been determined, so is not yet true, and so is not part of the "all truth" that God knows. So for me it is perfectly rational to say that God is all knowing and can save a person who could knowingly walk away in the future. Nowhere in scripture are we told that God knows all of the future.

Really?

Isa 46:9-11
9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that will I bring about;
what I have planned, that will I do.
NIV

Since God knows the end from the beginning, then it stands to reason that he knows all in between those two points, as well. Thus, God is truly all-knowing. He would have to know all the means in order to achieve his desired end. And of course there are numerous scriptures that teach us that God very often utilized means to accomplish his plan. And the sons of men are God's means, as well, since we know that man's ways are not in himself.... right?

 

[Magenta]

No, sorry brother but you are saved right now because God saved you. You had nothing to do with saving yourself and have no hand in keeping yourself saved. None. God gets ALL the glory and credit, you get none. You're not saved because of your trust, you are saved by His grace. Sorry if this upsets you or takes some of the credit you feel you deserve for making the right choice, or trusting good enough, or anything else you think you contribute to being saved. None you, ALL Him.

Titus 3:4-5

 

[Magenta]

Really?

Isa 46:9-11
9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that will I bring about;
what I have planned, that will I do.
NIV

Since God knows the end from the beginning, then it stands to reason that he knows all in between those two points, as well. Thus, God is truly all-knowing. He would have to know all the means in order to achieve his desired end. And of course there are numerous scriptures that teach us that God very often utilized means to accomplish his plan. And the sons of men are God's means, as well, since we know that man's ways are not in himself.... right?

Isaiah 46:10

 

[Magenta]

As an Israeli, I can say that the simplistic interpretation of that verse is absolutely erroneous.

The Greek meaning in that passage, coupled with our history, points to the fact that, by the coming of the Law, we knew what sin was, which shined a spotlight (so to speak) upon the things that were/are sin that not even we knew about, so the pot of sin definitions was greatly enlarged as many of our lifestyle choices and practices suddenly became sinful, and sin therefore increased as we continued to practice what was sin by habit.

Being so stuff-necked, we didn't like giving up on our habits, just like many other peoples, and so yes, the commission of sin did increase because of the things that were brought into the mix of what became defined as sin. The claim that we started sinning more, only at face value...that's the fallacy in the weaknesses of our English translations. They are translations only rather than expository translations that explain the proper understanding of words that have multiple definitions.

Far too many people out there think that they can pick whatever definition meets with their personal agendas or misunderstandings, and argue those points as if they knew what they were talking about. There are commentaries out there that also get this so very wrong. No wonder so many more people are beginning to hate us Jews as they paint us as being worse than they. That's a level of group-think that any culture can do without.

MM

Thank you for explaining... I did notice some discrepancies between various translations when I looked into it yesterday... I was kind of laughing to myself on my way to work this morning thinking about what you were saying of your people... does this really not describe many/most if not all of us? It sure did describe me. I think generally it describes the natural man quite well... something some here refuse to accept, for some strange reason, despite how thoroughly those aspects of humanity are drawn in Scripture.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I don't believe God knows whether someone will willingly walk away or not in the future.

I am sorry your God is limited.

. I believe God knows all truth, but most of the future has not yet been determined, so is not yet true, and so is not part of the "all truth" that God knows.

yet God can prophecy thousands of years eve ya that will happen and they do

So for me it is perfectly rational to say that God is all knowing and can save a person who could knowingly walk away in the future. Nowhere in scripture are we told that God knows all of the future.

like u said. I am sorry your God is limited. You made a God to fit your belief. Make your belief fit God

 

[Musicmaster]

Thank you for explaining... I did notice some discrepancies between various translations when I looked into it yesterday... I was kind of laughing to myself on my way to work this morning thinking about what you were saying of your people... does this really not describe many/most if not all of us? It sure did describe me. I think generally it describes the natural man quite well... something some here refuse to accept, for some strange reason, despite how thoroughly those aspects of humanity are drawn in Scripture.

Good points indeed. Yes, ALL of humanity has the same sin nature. Additionally, perhaps there were some among the ancient peoples, who rebelled at the bringing forth of the Law that added even grater restrictions so that the measure of their sins increased. What many people miss is that not only did the Law highlight many things as sin that were not sin before, it also set Israel apart from all the other nations around her. The dietary restrictions that once were non-existent, not there are meats they are no longer allowed to eat. The men were no longer allowed to marry their own sister, were not allowed to marry two women who were sisters, on and on the list goes. So, maybe a few did increase their desire for, and seeking out, sin because of the greater restrictions.

This ties into the OP by way of the fact that the Lord, at various times, brought about change in His dealings with with mankind, and the great mystery being one of the most radical of them all, in that Gentiles were brought under grace through faith unto salvation...without the Law, which greatly surprised the apostles, as shown in Acts 15.

The mystery hidden in God from the foundations of the world rooted our salvation under grace, and the very definition of grace itself places the loss of salvation outside the realm of possibility. The idea of having to retain salvation, that's completely foreign to the concept of grace with it being a gift. When receiving a gift, one doesn't earn the gift in the first place through works, and one doesn't keep the gift through works, because then it was never a gift. God isn't a proverbial "Indian giver," meaning He doesn't give something as a free gift, and then take it back. I don't know what god out there invented in the minds of mankind that does take back from his followers what he gave as a gift, but the God described in the Bible is of an infinitely higher caliber.

MM