Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[rogerg]

Since God knows the end from the beginning, then it stands to reason that he knows all in between those two points, as well. Thus, God is truly all-knowing. He would have to know all the means in order to achieve his desired end. And of course there are numerous scriptures that teach us that God very often utilized means to accomplish his plan. And the sons of men are God's means, as well, since we know that man's ways are not in himself.... right?

It was not just God's plan but also His promise. Since He could sware by no one greater, He swore by Himself. As God's promise, it will/must come to fruition perfectly as promised without modification.

[Heb 6:13 KJV]
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

[Rom 4:14, 16, 20 KJV]
14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: ...
16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, ...
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
[Rom 9:8 KJV]
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I am amazed that there are believers that view God as less than omniscient .

We still have people fulfilling romans 1. Only instead of making a God out of wood. They make an imaginary God that fits their belief system

 

[Magenta]

Good points indeed. Yes, ALL of humanity has the same sin nature. Additionally, perhaps there were some among the ancient peoples, who rebelled at the bringing forth of the Law that added even grater restrictions so that the measure of their sins increased. What many people miss is that not only did the Law highlight many things as sin that were not sin before, it also set Israel apart from all the other nations around her. The dietary restrictions that once were non-existent, not there are meats they are no longer allowed to eat. The men were no longer allowed to marry their own sister, were not allowed to marry two women who were sisters, on and on the list goes. So, maybe a few did increase their desire for, and seeking out, sin because of the greater restrictions.

This ties into the OP by way of the fact that the Lord, at various times, brought about change in His dealings with with mankind, and the great mystery being one of the most radical of them all, in that Gentiles were brought under grace through faith unto salvation...without the Law, which greatly surprised the apostles, as shown in Acts 15.

The mystery hidden in God from the foundations of the world rooted our salvation under grace, and the very definition of grace itself places the loss of salvation outside the realm of possibility. The idea of having to retain salvation, that's completely foreign to the concept of grace with it being a gift. When receiving a gift, one doesn't earn the gift in the first place through works, and one doesn't keep the gift through works, because then it was never a gift. God isn't a proverbial "Indian giver," meaning He doesn't give something as a free gift, and then take it back. I don't know what god out there invented in the minds of mankind that does take back from his followers what he gave as a gift, but the God described in the Bible is of an infinitely higher caliber.

MM

I do understand why Peter called the law a burden, and I have great respect for your people in having to carry the burden they did for so long, and compassion toward them for being so hated for their status of being chosen of God. I get it that some get locked into the traditions, and do throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. My nature was to rebel against tradition. Is there anything quite like being told, DON'T, to make a person want to??? LOL. Sadly, I do not recall being told why not to. Of course, God knows best and desires to protect us from harm, but we rush headlong into sin in our desire to experience what life has to offer. The school of hard knocks.

 

[Magenta]

We still have people fulfilling romans 1. Only instead of making a God out of wood. They make an imaginary God that fits their belief system

Romans 1:20-21 Since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

But...the work of salvation never began with man. It began with God and so he will complete it by bringing all his sheep to pasture (home). Salvation does not depend on the man who runs or the man who wills. But on God's mercy (Rom 9:16).

Jesus and his apostles had some pretty good tboughts for the Church too

“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. Do everything without grumbling or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-16‬ ‭

“But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself ( note paul is saying the person who’s refusing to repent is causing it not God but the person following thier own stubbornness and heart ) for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”


To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; ( again he’s saying it’s then rejecting the truth and then following and acting in the evil not God forcing them to do good or evil )

but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Why is Paul saying this stuff to the beloved church at rome ? Because he understands the truth of this and doesn’t want to lie to them and deceive them about it

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

When we say other things about the same subject either Paul has to be teaching falsely or we have learned some erroneous things

he was teaching in his epistles the church , that we all have to face God on judgement day for all we say and do no matter who we are and because of this we need to repent and start living upright lives now because our sins are forgiven and we can be saved if we turn to the lord now we can be forgiven and redeemed and filled with a good and holy spirit that is not a slave to sin anymore

We have a choice to make if we accept the gospel and receive the spirit

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die;

but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-14‬ ‭NIV‬‬

now that we have received the spirit we have to follow the spirit and repent of following the flesh or we’re going to perish like before we have power to overcome now and a doctrine to accept and follow believing it’s true

“You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free.

But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh;

rather, serve one another humbly in love.

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

( we can lose our promised inheritance if we live to please our flesh nature d keep sinning )

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13, 16-25‬ ‭NIV‬‬

We aren’t taught that a gods going to do everything after we accept the gospel , we’re taught that his spirit is with us and we can now do all things because he gives us strength

“I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭4:13‬ ‭NIV‬‬


We have a doctrine we’re meant to believe a path set before us to follow after to its end

“Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.

For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.

For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord.

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

We should try to believe the things the Bible teaches and let those things change how we believe and think and live ultimately he’s trying to save us if we’ll believe Jesus

 

[Rufus]

Good points indeed. Yes, ALL of humanity has the same sin nature. Additionally, perhaps there were some among the ancient peoples, who rebelled at the bringing forth of the Law that added even grater restrictions so that the measure of their sins increased. What many people miss is that not only did the Law highlight many things as sin that were not sin before, it also set Israel apart from all the other nations around her. The dietary restrictions that once were non-existent, not there are meats they are no longer allowed to eat. The men were no longer allowed to marry their own sister, were not allowed to marry two women who were sisters, on and on the list goes. So, maybe a few did increase their desire for, and seeking out, sin because of the greater restrictions.

This ties into the OP by way of the fact that the Lord, at various times, brought about change in His dealings with with mankind, and the great mystery being one of the most radical of them all, in that Gentiles were brought under grace through faith unto salvation...without the Law, which greatly surprised the apostles, as shown in Acts 15.

The mystery hidden in God from the foundations of the world rooted our salvation under grace, and the very definition of grace itself places the loss of salvation outside the realm of possibility. The idea of having to retain salvation, that's completely foreign to the concept of grace with it being a gift. When receiving a gift, one doesn't earn the gift in the first place through works, and one doesn't keep the gift through works, because then it was never a gift. God isn't a proverbial "Indian giver," meaning He doesn't give something as a free gift, and then take it back. I don't know what god out there invented in the minds of mankind that does take back from his followers what he gave as a gift, but the God described in the Bible is of an infinitely higher caliber.

MM

Good grief! I'm shocked! You have finally expressed a belief of yours that is actually grounded in scripture. Salvation was never ours to lose in the first place. All of Salvation -- from beginning to end -- is of grace.

Rom 11:29
29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
NIV

You're right! God isn't an "Indian giver". How could he be since the NC is unilateral which means God himself fulfills its conditions through and by the various means of grace that he has given his elect in His Beloved?

 

[Musicmaster]

I do understand why Peter called the law a burden, and I have great respect for your people in having to carry the burden they did for so long, and compassion toward them for being so hated for their status of being chosen of God. I get it that some get locked into the traditions, and do throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. My nature was to rebel against tradition. Is there anything quite like being told, DON'T, to make a person want to??? LOL. Sadly, I do not recall being told why not to. Of course, God knows best and desires to protect us from harm, but we rush headlong into sin in our desire to experience what life has to offer. The school of hard knocks.

The sense of what I picked up through my studies is that the Jews were simply not prepared for the rigor of legalistic exercise. What was worse is that they found out firsthand how "...the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life." Sadly, so many simply didn't understand the Spirit of the Law, for they would have experienced the "life" as did Daniel and so many of the other prophets.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Good grief! I'm shocked! You have finally expressed a belief of yours that is actually grounded in scripture. Salvation was never ours to lose in the first place. All of Salvation -- from beginning to end -- is of grace.

Rom 11:29
29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
NIV

You're right! God isn't an "Indian giver". How could he be since the NC is unilateral which means God himself fulfills its conditions through and by the various means of grace that he has given his elect in His Beloved?

That doesn't mean much considering your vantagepoint of Preterism.

MM

 

[PaulThomson]

I am sorry your God is limited. yet God can prophecy thousands of years eve ya that will happen and they do


like u said. I am sorry your God is limited. You made a God to fit your belief. Make your belief fit God

My understanding of God's omniscience fits the Bible. I'm comfortable with that standard.
God is limited in some ways by every depiction people give of Him. God is only three persons, not infinite persons. God is not evil. God does not say things He knows are untrue. God is not controlling rapists and murderers. Some say God cannot change His original decrees.

I did say, "I believe God knows all truth, but most of the future has not yet been determined, so is not yet true, and so is not part of the "all truth" that God knows." That means I concede that some of the future is determined by God and that part God knows because He has determined it in advance. So, there is room in my theology fr God to predict and bring to pass some future events by means of His omnipotence and omni-competence. Hence, from my perspective, God can prophecy thousands of years ahead some things that will happen and they do.

 

[Musicmaster]

Losing one's salvation, as stated before, is impossible. The narratives for that are massive through scripture.

Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Notice that Gentiles were, in times past before the mystery was revealed to Paul, were without Christ, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, strangers from the covenants of promise, and therefore having no hope and without God UNLESS, and only IF, they joined with Israel to become Jews.

Now that Israel had failed to embrace Christ and accept Him as Messiah, the Lord implemented yet another means for Gentiles to seek for the salvation that only the Lord could give. Grace. I hope you all understand how great the gift is, and appreciate the Lord so much more because of His unmerited favor toward you because of Israel's fall. The Jews always held the keys to the pathway to salvation, but that was taken from us because of our absolute failure.

One does not have a gift taken from them, and the emotions from day to day never validate that alleged loss, even if one falls headlong into sin. The Blood of Christ is so much more powerful than all one's sin.

MM

 

[PaulThomson]

Really?

Isa 46:9-11
9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that will I bring about;
what I have planned, that will I do.
NIV

Since God knows the end from the beginning, then it stands to reason that he knows all in between those two points, as well. Thus, God is truly all-knowing. He would have to know all the means in order to achieve his desired end. And of course there are numerous scriptures that teach us that God very often utilized means to accomplish his plan. And the sons of men are God's means, as well, since we know that man's ways are not in himself.... right?

The statement "I make known the end (of a thing) from the beginning (of a thing)" does not mean "I make known the end (of every thing) from the beginning (of every thing)." What God makes known is only that which He tells mankind. Clearly, He has not told us every thing that will be.

The statement, "My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please," does not mean that all that happens is God's doingf nor that all that happens is what pleases God.

"What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do," does not mean that everything that happens is brought about by God, or is foreknown by God. It simply says that Gopd uses His power to make sure those things He says will happen do happen. "I will bring about. I will do."

You are reading far to many metaphysical presuppositions into what this text actually says.

 

[Rufus]

That doesn't mean much considering your vantagepoint of Preterism.

MM

What in the world does my brand of eschatology have to do with a particular doctrine of soteriology?

 

[PaulThomson]

No, sorry brother but you are saved right now because God saved you. You had nothing to do with saving yourself and have no hand in keeping yourself saved. None. God gets ALL the glory and credit, you get none. You're not saved because of your trust, you are saved by His grace. Sorry if this upsets you or takes some of the credit you feel you deserve for making the right choice, or trusting good enough, or anything else you think you contribute to being saved. None you, ALL Him.

Abraham believed God, and it was counted/reckoned/credited to him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that works not, but believs on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted/reckoned/credited for righteousness.

If God says He credits my faith to me as righteousness, I don't believe you when you say He does not allow us any credit for our faith.

 

[Rufus]

The statement "I make known the end (of a thing) from the beginning (of a thing)" does not mean "I make known the end (of every thing) from the beginning (of every thing)." What God makes known is only that which He tells mankind. Clearly, He has not told us every thing that will be.

Never said it did. After all, there's much that God has kept secret for himself (Deut 29:29).

The statement, "My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please," does not mean that all that happens is God's doingf nor that all that happens is what pleases God.[/quote]

But it does mean that all that he has purposed by decree will most certainly happen.

"What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do," does not mean that everything that happens is brought about by God, or is foreknown by God. It simply says that Gopd uses His power to make sure those things He says will happen do happen. "I will bring about. I will do."

You are reading far to many metaphysical presuppositions into what this text actually says.

But it does mean that neither Satan or his seed are in control of God's historical redemptive plan mankind or any part thereof.

 

[Rufus]

Abraham believed God, and it was counted/reckoned/credited to him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that works not, but believs on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted/reckoned/credited for righteousness.

If God says He credits my faith to me as righteousness, I don't believe you when you say He does not allow us any credit for our faith.

Then the bible must be chock full of such examples whereby God has done what you say. Or are you just chasin' the wind?

 

[PaulThomson]

Do you believe God did not know, Adam and Eve had nit already sinned? It does read it that way, when God said to Adam "Who told you, you were naked?"
Did you eat from that tree?
As if God does not know or did not know. God loves us enough to let us each choose and not lord it over you, me or anyone else. At least to me that is what I see

Asking a child who has cookie crumbs on his lips and chin, and fingers, "Did you steal a cookie from the cookie jar?" does not imply you don't know whether they did. It is an invitation to the child to confess the truth.
God knew, via His perfect knowledge of the past and present, that Adam and Eve had sinned. He was inviting them to be honest.

 

[PaulThomson]

I am amazed that there are believers that view God as less than omniscient .

Define omniscient. I have defined omniscience as knowing all truth. If the future in not yet real, it is not yet true and is not a part of the "all truth" the omniscient God knows.

 

[PaulThomson]

Then the bible must be chock full of such examples whereby God has done what you say. Or are you just chasin' the wind?

Hebrews 11 lists a lot of cases where God credited people's faith to them as righteousness.

 

[PaulThomson]

But when one claims he has lost his salvation at some time in the past, as described by you, which sounds more like the emotional state you were in as related to your state of sins, that still doesn't justifiably prove the case of lost salvation. Feeling saved versus not feeling saved, that proves nothing, which seems to be the basis upon which you've built your claim.

I still would like to know how one can definitively know he has lost his salvation. If one were sealed by Holy Spirit, where is it said that sin unseals that sealing? Where does scripture say that one is UNborn again on the basis of sin? That would require a level of power that no man has to break those bonds and to alter the born again status of the individual through some unnamed process of birth status reversal.

When the Lord said that there are none who can pluck us from His Hands, were you or anyone else excluded so that you then have that power?

Sorry, but I'm just not seeing anything of substance in your claim.

MM

You say, "I still would like to know how one can definitively know he has lost his salvation."

God says,

2 Corinthians 13:5

5 Examine yourselves, whether you be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

[PaulThomson]

I don't think what you're saying is true. If God didn't know what happens in the future, He wouldn't have told us what is to come in all the prophecies He has included in the Bible.

In my experience, God doesn't tell us everything He knows beforehand because we might not understand or maybe not be able to handle whatever future there is for us until it actually happens. This is why God always encourages us to trust in Him.


🏂

God is omnipotent and omni-competent. He is able to declare a future thing today and make it come to pass tomorrow or in 1000 years time. He does not need to know every detail of the future in order to make his specific predictions regarding the future come to pass.