Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[FollowHisSteps]

Then in the

It didnt matter how much I was told how "secure" I was in OSAS I never felt secure. Because I would open the bible and it would tell me I wasn't. My friends still fellowshiped with me even though I was living a totally sinful lifestyle, but they just felt sorry for me all the time. I had faith according to OSAS faith alone. Justification through Christ alone. I prayed, read my bible all the time. But I still couldn't be free from my sins, I was a drunk, smoking fornicater, who occasionally used drugs as well, listened to angry rap music that had so much sin in them. I swore all the time, wore provocative clothing. But I had Faith in God, went to church all the time, fellowshiped all the time, prayed all the time. I cried out to God for my sins to forgive me, but my sins were destroying me and I was in a black hole of depression with no way out. I started to become upset asking God "why aren't I "changing" God, the holy spirit is In me. I was crying all the time for the holy spirit to change me but "nothing happened"

Years and years passed I went into darkness of depression because of not being able to change.

My mental health was failing as well.

Then my mum looked on a site evangelical outreach.org. she went on there because my dad followed OSAS and turned away because of his drug addiction and hard heart toward God. My mum was wondering is my husband a Christian while using drugs. He had the faith that OSAS refers too? He went to church, fellowshiped.
Then he turned from God totally.

Then we found out evangelical outreach.org that a believer can fall away from the faith.
My dad came back to God on his death bed 3 months ago. He had brain damage and cancer, but was able to say the whole sinners repentance prayer, when he had trouble speaking.

So now I dont follow OSAS I have peace in my heart and a better relationship with God. My mental health is also alot better than It was a couple of years ago. No condemnation when I open my bible and I am now trying my hardest to resist sin, I feel like God approves of me. Also there are no horrible consequences in my life for my sins at the moment, since I am obeying the bible. So there is more peace in my life.

Amen. Praise the Lord you have peace walking in love and Jesus's way.
Part of OSAS is right, in Jesus we are safe, but only when we stay in the shadow of the cross.

Peter put it like this

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;
6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;
7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
2 Peter 1

 

[Guojing]

Those that take the mark of the beast are not saved.

Revelation 14:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Wait, you mean it is possible for someone to have faith in Jesus, but because he took the mark of the beast later, he will not be saved in the end?

So it is actually possible to lose salvation then?

 

[Nat2019]

Can you still be saved according to OSAS, even when you follow another Gospel?

I came to God 7 years ago. I believed in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. I said sorry "change of mind" for my sins. I believed in the imputed Righteousness of Christ, thought I was forgiven for my past present and future sins, had a relationship with Jesus.

When I came to Jesus on ______ lost the actual date, I was sealed with the holy spirit (A seal that cant be reversed).

I lived a lifestyle of ungodliness after I was saved, was I saved?

*Some on here tell me I wasnt saved(never saved to begin with).
But you then tell me I was sealed (A seal that cant be broken).

Why wasnt the holy spirit, doing the work in me for over 3 years?

Why did I bear absolutely no fruit with the holy spirit in me?

Am I still saved will following another Gospel?

You tell me I am sealed by the holy spirit (nothing can break that seal I received 7 years ago on that special day I came to jesus.

So am I saved still, even though I follow another Gospel now?.

 

[Guojing]

God deludes those that will not receive the truth....No saved man will take it and then lose salvation is what I am saying.....only LOST MEN receive it!

So salvation becomes faith and works then?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
2 Tim 4

It is ironic a gift needs a good steward who values, cherishes and grows the living gift
of eternal life that we are given.

Some seem to believe we can trample, kill and destroy this gift, yet it is still true for us
personally, rather than by so doing we have become its enemy.

In Jesus there is always hope, if we believe and follow.
Many people have lived as they like on the assumption someone else will stop them
from harm, when they are adults with full responsibility for the paths they walk and
where they lead. Life is unbelievably fragile, yet the privilege of love and life is treated
like a spoilt child, wanting a parent to save them as they fall to their death.

 

[Guojing]

Hmmm..........what do you think?

I guess since you know how to quote Rev 14, it will be better to lead someone to put their faith in Jesus, and then take a gun and kill him as soon as you can so that he will never be tempted to take the mark?

 

[Nat2019]

If we dont continue in Gods kindness we too will be cut off.

Romans 11:22 New International Version (NIV)
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

 

[OneOfHis]

So salvation becomes faith and works then?

No. How could you possibly come to that conclusion.

 

[Nat2019]

Wait, you mean it is possible for someone to have faith in Jesus, but because he took the mark of the beast later, he will not be saved in the end?

So it is actually possible to lose salvation then?

Yes it is according to the bible

 

[Nat2019]

No. How could you possibly come to that conclusion.

James 2:14-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does itprofit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Some people believe the book of James doesnt apply for today

 

[PennEd]

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Yes brother, this is certainly a passage that has caused much introspection and even fear that pehaps I have willfully sinned.

But I think the answer, once revealed takes away the misinterpretation that can lead to a feeling of condemnation.

So first off we have to take a step back in this chapter, and even Book. What is "willful" sin? I don't think anyone would argue that willful sin is sin you commit knowing that it IS sin when you commit it. Well, wait a minute. I have certainly done that. In fact if everyone was honest with themselves they would admit that THEY have ALL done this. To say we haven't, delves into the sinless perfection doctrine we all know to be heretical.

So know we start to slice and dice between willful sin and garden variety sin, and just how many willful sins does one have to commit before Jesus' Blood doesn't atone.

No! There is a PARTICULAR willful sin that is going on here. The author is trying to convey that Christ is a ONCE, for ALL TIME Sacrifice for our sin. The guys in Hebrews, and especially Hebrews 10, were saying "Yeah, Jesus is Great and all that, but we STILL need to sacrifice bulls and goats, and sprinkle their blood to atone for our sins.. " THEY WERE INDEED TRODDING UNDERFOOT THE BLOOD OF CHRIST!!

THAT WAS THE "WILLFUL SIN" THEY WERE ENGAGING IN. In effect REJECTING Jesus and His Perfect Sacrifice.

You may agree with all that but say they were at one time saved. But this is a VERY important point.

Simply having a HEAD KNOWLEDGE of the Truth is NOT the same as BELIEVING the Truth. These people were NEVER Born again.

So they heard THE Gospel, they had knowledge of it, but by thinking they needed to CONTINUE to sacrifice animals for the atonement of their sins means they DIDN'T believe Jesus' Sacrifice was enough. They rejected THE Gospel. At that point there remains no Sacrifice for their sins since they rejected Christ.

 

[Nat2019]

Who ever claimed Exodus 12:13 is a verse that refers to jesus blood COVERING YOUR SIN I refute you biblically.
Exodus 12:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Its talking about God protecting the isrealites from the punishments on Egypt, by (blood).
*No where does it say (JESUS) BLOOD.

 

[Guojing]

No. How could you possibly come to that conclusion.

You don't think rejecting the mark of the beast is a work?

Why not? Is someone who believe in Jesus free to choose that mark if he wants to?

 

[Guojing]

Yes brother, this is certainly a passage that has caused much introspection and even fear that pehaps I have willfully sinned.

But I think the answer, once revealed takes away the misinterpretation that can lead to a feeling of condemnation.

So first off we have to take a step back in this chapter, and even Book. What is "willful" sin? I don't think anyone would argue that willful sin is sin you commit knowing that it IS sin when you commit it. Well, wait a minute. I have certainly done that. In fact if everyone was honest with themselves they would admit that THEY have ALL done this. To say we haven't, delves into the sinless perfection doctrine we all know to be heretical.

So know we start to slice and dice between willful sin and garden variety sin, and just how many willful sins does one have to commit before Jesus' Blood doesn't atone.

No! There is a PARTICULAR willful sin that is going on here. The author is trying to convey that Christ is a ONCE, for ALL TIME Sacrifice for our sin. The guys in Hebrews, and especially Hebrews 10, were saying "Yeah, Jesus is Great and all that, but we STILL need to sacrifice bulls and goats, and sprinkle their blood to atone for our sins.. " THEY WERE INDEED TRODDING UNDERFOOT THE BLOOD OF CHRIST!!

THAT WAS THE "WILLFUL SIN" THEY WERE ENGAGING IN. In effect REJECTING Jesus and His Perfect Sacrifice.

You may agree with all that but say they were at one time saved. But this is a VERY important point.

Simply having a HEAD KNOWLEDGE of the Truth is NOT the same as BELIEVING the Truth. These people were NEVER Born again.

So they heard THE Gospel, they had knowledge of it, but by thinking they needed to CONTINUE to sacrifice animals for the atonement of their sins means they DIDN'T believe Jesus' Sacrifice was enough. They rejected THE Gospel. At that point there remains no Sacrifice for their sins since they rejected Christ.

How about a simpler interpretation: During the Tribulation, believers are warned not to take the mark of the beast. But if they still choose to do that, perhaps to avoid starvation from not being able to buy food, they will, as Rev 14 said, be cast into hell?

 

[Nat2019]

You don't think rejecting the mark of the beast is a work?

Why not? Is someone who believe in Jesus free to choose that mark if he wants to?

Yes you have free will now to go and eat some lollies if you choose too. But they might make you sick

 

[OneOfHis]

Can you still be saved according to OSAS, even when you follow another Gospel?

I came to God 7 years ago. I believed in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. I said sorry "change of mind" for my sins. I believed in the imputed Righteousness of Christ, thought I was forgiven for my past present and future sins, had a relationship with Jesus.

When I came to Jesus on ______ lost the actual date, I was sealed with the holy spirit (A seal that cant be reversed).

I lived a lifestyle of ungodliness after I was saved, was I saved?

*Some on here tell me I wasnt saved(never saved to begin with).
But you then tell me I was sealed (A seal that cant be broken).

Why wasnt the holy spirit, doing the work in me for over 3 years?

Why did I bear absolutely no fruit with the holy spirit in me?

Am I still saved will following another Gospel?

You tell me I am sealed by the holy spirit (nothing can break that seal I received 7 years ago on that special day I came to jesus.

So am I saved still, even though I follow another Gospel now?.

I believed what you believe now for many years before God delivered me. 🙂

I have no idea if you're saved, just because I've seen no good fruit or truth from you doesn't mean God hasn't started in you already.


John 3:3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


(also you did not truly believe in eternal security or Gods promises if you then stopped believing in them.... it means you had no confidence, nor trust and through circumstance you turned from your "beliefs"... you believed it like you believe a sports team is the best sports team... now you found a new favorite... much different from an enduring faith... like faith that if you jump off a sky scraper you will die... no one can change you from that it is a genuine faith not a fleeting conditional faith)



as for fruit



John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


there are two sorts of brances here


branches that bare fruit
_____
"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches void of any fruit
____
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"


this whole thing is largely an example of the power of CHRIST in His own

compared to the lack of power in fakers

this was said after judas already betrayed Jesus and was said to make a point before the conclusion of the betrayal of judas
.....
this is about two separate sorts of men/women who claim to be in Him and are part of the congregation


nothing to do with how to earn or keep salvation

(it is a gift by grace through faith)

men can't see all like God

man may say "where is this persons fruit" through a series of poor encounters

but God may know them and be working in them already


... even peter denied Jesus 3 times

there were men who could have clearly stated "he is not a believer"

but God knew better

 

[FollowHisSteps]

No. How could you possibly come to that conclusion.

"Faith without works"

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
James 2

17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
James 2

Faith plus works is dead. Works used to justify or bring into existence faith is works salvation.

Faith with works is true life giving faith. Faith that sees Jesus and love, knows eternity and the cross
working alive in their hearts, as its fruit and outworking brings works into action.

Desperation. Some desperately want to say a believer is a believer even when the connection between
being safe in Christ and love working in their hearts has not started or come into existance.
Can one be a cold hard hearted believer? Some appear to believe so, except the sinful world is not
short of hard hearted people who sin continually and do not see they are dying and destroying everything
that could be called precious. And the reason is because they are hard hearted and have died inside.

Christ is about a heart of flesh, being sensitive to love, care and needs, which shows itself in good works.
But with a hard heart, you will see nothing and respond to nothing, and are dead inside, so not the Holy
Temple of the Holy Spirit, exercising His will and love to the world.

 

[Guojing]

"Faith without works"

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
James 2

17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
James 2

Faith plus works is dead. Works used to justify or bring into existence faith is works salvation.

Faith with works is true life giving faith. Faith that sees Jesus and love, knows eternity and the cross
working alive in their hearts, as its fruit and outworking brings works into action.

Desperation. Some desperately want to say a believer is a believer even when the connection between
being safe in Christ and love working in their hearts has not started or come into existance.
Can one be a cold hard hearted believer? Some appear to believe so, except the sinful world is not
short of hard hearted people who sin continually and do not see they are dying and destroying everything
that could be called precious. And the reason is because they are hard hearted and have died inside.

Christ is about a heart of flesh, being sensitive to love, care and needs, which shows itself in good works.
But with a hard heart, you will see nothing and respond to nothing, and are dead inside, so not the Holy
Temple of the Holy Spirit, exercising His will and love to the world.

I think that particular James passage would be very relevant during the Tribulation. James is telling his fellow Jews that, during that time, they need to have faith in Jesus, plus the work of rejecting the mark of the beast.

Otherwise, as Rev 14:12 states, they will not be among the saints.

 

[Nat2019]

I believed what you believe now for many years before God delivered me. 🙂

I have no idea if you're saved, just because I've seen no good fruit or truth from you doesn't mean God hasn't started in you already.


John 3:3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


(also you did not truly believe in eternal security or Gods promises if you then stopped believing in them.... it means you had no confidence, nor trust and through circumstance you turned from your "beliefs"... you believed it like you believe a sports team is the best sports team... now you found a new favorite... much different from an enduring faith... like faith that if you jump off a sky scraper you will die... no one can change you from that it is a genuine faith not a fleeting conditional faith)



as for fruit



John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


there are two sorts of brances here


branches that bare fruit
_____
"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches void of any fruit
____
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"


this whole thing is largely an example of the power of CHRIST in His own

compared to the lack of power in fakers

this was said after judas already betrayed Jesus and was said to make a point before the conclusion of the betrayal of judas
.....
this is about two separate sorts of men/women who claim to be in Him and are part of the congregation


nothing to do with how to earn or keep salvation

(it is a gift by grace through faith)

men can't see all like God

man may say "where is this persons fruit" through a series of poor encounters

but God may know them and be working in them already


... even peter denied Jesus 3 times

there were men who could have clearly stated "he is not a believer"

but God knew better

So the seal was broken then

I believed what you believe now for many years before God delivered me. 🙂

I have no idea if you're saved, just because I've seen no good fruit or truth from you doesn't mean God hasn't started in you already.


John 3:3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


(also you did not truly believe in eternal security or Gods promises if you then stopped believing in them.... it means you had no confidence, nor trust and through circumstance you turned from your "beliefs"... you believed it like you believe a sports team is the best sports team... now you found a new favorite... much different from an enduring faith... like faith that if you jump off a sky scraper you will die... no one can change you from that it is a genuine faith not a fleeting conditional faith)



as for fruit



John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


there are two sorts of brances here


branches that bare fruit
_____
"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches void of any fruit
____
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"


this whole thing is largely an example of the power of CHRIST in His own

compared to the lack of power in fakers

this was said after judas already betrayed Jesus and was said to make a point before the conclusion of the betrayal of judas
.....
this is about two separate sorts of men/women who claim to be in Him and are part of the congregation


nothing to do with how to earn or keep salvation

(it is a gift by grace through faith)

men can't see all like God

man may say "where is this persons fruit" through a series of poor encounters

but God may know them and be working in them already


... even peter denied Jesus 3 times

there were men who could have clearly stated "he is not a believer"

but God knew better

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Some will depart from the faith.

 

[BillG]

Can you still be saved according to OSAS, even when you follow another Gospel?

I came to God 7 years ago. I believed in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. I said sorry "change of mind" for my sins. I believed in the imputed Righteousness of Christ, thought I was forgiven for my past present and future sins, had a relationship with Jesus.

When I came to Jesus on ______ lost the actual date, I was sealed with the holy spirit (A seal that cant be reversed).

I lived a lifestyle of ungodliness after I was saved, was I saved?

*Some on here tell me I wasnt saved(never saved to begin with).
But you then tell me I was sealed (A seal that cant be broken).

Why wasnt the holy spirit, doing the work in me for over 3 years?

Why did I bear absolutely no fruit with the holy spirit in me?

Am I still saved will following another Gospel?

You tell me I am sealed by the holy spirit (nothing can break that seal I received 7 years ago on that special day I came to jesus.

So am I saved still, even though I follow another Gospel now?.

Think about it.
If God was to just heal our afflictions like alcohol and gambling what use would be to others who struggle with it.

There is a difference between struggling with something and to not give two hoots.

To struggle with it means you do not want it.
So during those years the Holy Spirit is working.
Working to the point where we eventually allow God to deal with it.
By this I mean the cause of affect.
My addiction was caused by many facets.
So it was a release from the hurt and pain.
I also had a lot of unforgivness in my heart.
Before we can bear fruit the ground needs to be cultivated.
As a person who did the accounts of a farmer I was surprised by how much has to be done to prepare the ground to sow the seed.

So I said for those years I would say the Holy Spirit is working.
Bringing you to a place to bear fruit.
God's timing is perfect.

And as a result we can

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Walk in the good works prepared for us.
You can do that with people who have an alcohol addiction.
Like I do with people who have a gambling problem and have suffered sexual abuse.

I thank God he has healed you of your addiction.
Let those of us who suffered in such a way be the light to others and be willing to be used by God to impart the hope and knowledge that Jesus heals us.